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On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not.
It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say.
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On May 09 2013 05:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. If it isn't game-breaking, then only issue we are having is a learn to play issue. Personally I don't see mines being all that powerful in a month or two due to people getting used to them and learning to deal with the effectively. That is of course expecting that there are no balance changes that affect mine play in anyway during that time. But I could be wrong of course.
They aren't even gamebreaking with the exception of Innovation and MAYBE Flash, who are the two best Terrans in the world by far. It's not like the half year of infesters when no name players were beating top end players with mass infesters. WM's has never, on the pro scene, allowed a less skilled player to beat a more skilled one (with the exception of maybe the first month of HoTS when things were getting figured out.)
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This Stephano vs Grubby game is disgusting, and I think I'm going to quit Starcraft.
David Kim doesn't know what he's doing and SC2 has become a two-race game.
Stephano made all kinds of strategic errors, such as not building spore enough spore crawlers, not repositioning spines, not abusing the power of abduct. Grubby got good feedbacks throughout the game and used virtually all the tools he had at his disposal and couldn't have done much else.
Zealot harass is ineffective. It costs a huge amount in minerals, and drones can simply run away from them. And it can be shut down by merely a task force of roaches. And that was basically all Grubby could have done to break the deadlock, and it didn't work.
And that's a race that complains about being weak in the late game. What a fucking joke.
I predicted right from the start that Protoss would be broken. The only new units they've got are:
(1) An expensive, specialized siege unit that is countered by spamming air. Compare that to the swarm host which can only be countered by highly specific tactics and several different units.
(2) A "harassment" unit that is only good for early game cheese and is completely shut down by a spore crawler or missile turret.
(3) A unit which you can't make armies out of.
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On May 09 2013 05:50 Morlock wrote:
This Stephano vs Grubby game is disgusting, and I think I'm going to quit Starcraft.
David Kim doesn't know what he's doing and SC2 has become a two-race game.
Stephano made all kinds of strategic errors, such as not building spore enough spore crawlers, not repositioning spines, not abusing the power of abduct. Grubby got good feedbacks throughout the game and used virtually all the tools he had at his disposal and couldn't have done much else.
Zealot harass is ineffective. It costs a huge amount in minerals, and drones can simply run away from them. And it can be shut down by merely a task force of roaches. And that was basically all Grubby could have done to break the deadlock, and it didn't work.
And that's a race that complains about being weak in the late game. What a fucking joke.
I predicted right from the start that Protoss would be broken. The only new units they've got are:
(1) An expensive, specialized siege unit that is countered by spamming air. Compare that to the swarm host which can only be countered by highly specific tactics and several different units.
(2) A "harassment" unit that is only good for early game cheese and is completely shut down by a spore crawler or missile turret.
(3) A unit which you can't make armies out of.
Did you perhaps watch Stephano vs Babyknight G1? 
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On May 09 2013 05:52 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:50 Morlock wrote:
This Stephano vs Grubby game is disgusting, and I think I'm going to quit Starcraft.
David Kim doesn't know what he's doing and SC2 has become a two-race game.
Stephano made all kinds of strategic errors, such as not building spore enough spore crawlers, not repositioning spines, not abusing the power of abduct. Grubby got good feedbacks throughout the game and used virtually all the tools he had at his disposal and couldn't have done much else.
Zealot harass is ineffective. It costs a huge amount in minerals, and drones can simply run away from them. And it can be shut down by merely a task force of roaches. And that was basically all Grubby could have done to break the deadlock, and it didn't work.
And that's a race that complains about being weak in the late game. What a fucking joke.
I predicted right from the start that Protoss would be broken. The only new units they've got are:
(1) An expensive, specialized siege unit that is countered by spamming air. Compare that to the swarm host which can only be countered by highly specific tactics and several different units.
(2) A "harassment" unit that is only good for early game cheese and is completely shut down by a spore crawler or missile turret.
(3) A unit which you can't make armies out of. Did you perhaps watch Stephano vs Babyknight G1?
So earlier you cried about Terran, now you cry about Zerg...
Also 1 hour ago other Protoss beat Stephano in late game btw.
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On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say.
That was a typo and you are mad, lol.
And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that.
As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion.
If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues.
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I don't think you can read too much into the Grubby v Stephano game, because clearly the strategy on both sides isn't too refined yet. Grubby did throw a lot of units away by constantly engaging into a turtling zerg, instead of working on his own composition, maybe that would have been the better choice for him.
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^ lol if u think Grubby played that match flawlessly. id say he made more mistakes than stephano by far
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Please please don't talk balance on the horrible series between Grubby and Stephano. Just erase all of that from your memories and live a happier life.
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On May 09 2013 03:39 HellNino wrote:EDIT; and to answer about all the perks terran got: -lifting OC, and salvage bunkers because Terran static defense cost supply (need to fill those bunkers) -call down supply because terran macro is so unforgivable -ez mines (this is a lie btw  ) because microing a terran army and multitasking accordingly is harder than convice your the community than terran is not op :p "Terran macro so unforgivable"? You mean like losing the game because you forget a single warp in? Oh, right...you mean pressing a button to queue up units.
Microing your marines and marauders units is harder than force fields, storms, and positioning...all of which is needed merely to stand a chance against your A-moving with stim?
Static defence costs supply? I presume you're referring to your supplementary static defence. The thing you get in addition to missile turrets and the planetary fortress...which are incomparably more powerful in combination, especially when repaired by SCVs, than mere cannons.
The kind of self-centred rationalizing you're resorting to is reminiscent of the excuses that Wall Street psychopaths give to justify their salaries of millions of dollars to reward them for chatting on a phone and slapping one another on the back.
The fact is that Terran is a race that appeals to the "soldier boy" demographic...which is essentially the lowest common denominator of people who play computer games.
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On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues.
Or you can learn how to engage like everyone else does.
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On May 09 2013 05:57 Sackings wrote:
^ lol if u think Grubby played that match flawlessly. id say he made more mistakes than stephano by far And yet you don't give a single example. Nice.
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On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues.
So Terrans below masters can split properly?
See what I did there?
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On May 09 2013 05:57 Grumbels wrote:
I don't think you can read too much into the Grubby v Stephano game, because clearly the strategy on both sides isn't too refined yet. Grubby did throw a lot of units away by constantly engaging into a turtling zerg, instead of working on his own composition, maybe that would have been the better choice for him. It was NOTHING to do with Grubby throwing zealots away.
They're minerals and he lost through gas. The swarm hosts could have been moved closer little by little and Grubby would have fallen. Harass was the only chance he had of breaking the deadlock.
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On May 09 2013 06:03 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:57 Sackings wrote:
^ lol if u think Grubby played that match flawlessly. id say he made more mistakes than stephano by far And yet you don't give a single example. Nice.
We just bloody well finished the match. You should remember them yourself. But fine, I'll waste my time on your antics from 2010:
Grubby's attack in G1 had him lead with sentries which promptly died to spines and roaches, while his immos were stuck behind his stalkers.
Grubby's main meat shield against locusts seemed to be HTs.
When Stephano overextended with roaches into Grubby, Grubby immediately overextended back. In neither of the first two attacks did he recall out to save units but lost them all.
Grubby was trading zealots for bases while Stephano was on 7k 7k. This meant that Grubby mined out faster and was about 15k down in resources lost.
Grubby got all his voids fungaled in a clumpp and killed somewhere in the middle.
Grubby got tempests around the 50 minute mark because he tried to kill Stephano with colossuses pushes. This left him vulnerable in the late game.
I think that's enough for now.
Edit: And he's banned before I finish the post. What am I doing with my life?
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Grubby also had 75 probes for a very long time, and then when a few probes died he made more.
On May 09 2013 06:05 Morlock wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:57 Grumbels wrote:
I don't think you can read too much into the Grubby v Stephano game, because clearly the strategy on both sides isn't too refined yet. Grubby did throw a lot of units away by constantly engaging into a turtling zerg, instead of working on his own composition, maybe that would have been the better choice for him. It was NOTHING to do with Grubby throwing zealots away. They're minerals and he lost through gas. The swarm hosts could have been moved closer little by little and Grubby would have fallen. Harass was the only chance he had of breaking the deadlock.
Not true, he did waste zealots but he also needlessly lost high templar, void rays, stalkers and colossi by committing to killing bases that Stephano could easily just rebuild. And he never used recall.
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On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there?
No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling?
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On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc.
This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered.
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On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered.
Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages.
Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is.
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On May 09 2013 09:58 Graven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 09:49 RampancyTW wrote:On May 09 2013 08:39 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 06:04 WindCalibur wrote:On May 09 2013 05:56 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 05:38 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 05:17 Graven wrote:On May 09 2013 04:56 Chaggi wrote:On May 09 2013 04:26 Graven wrote:
@Sissors and Chaggi: To both of you, the distinction is that no micro is needed for mines. It's not like storms, EMP, banelings, etc. So if you turn away to build a rax in your main, you can camp your units near your mines and they're protected. Not to mention, Zerg has the largest requirement of multi-tasking during an egagement, especially with ling/bling, because if you're slow on injects, you literally don't have the larvae to compete with the Terran bio.
And I enjoy playing random in team games, so I'm very familiar with all the races mechanics (and I'm very sloppy with Nexus energy and muling, lol), but I don't think it's fair to compare the ease of kiting an Ultra to the complexity of ling/bling vs. Widow Mines. I genuinely can't imagine someone doing both of those and thinking they require the same level of skill, haha. With splitting, it's more of a grey area, as pro-splitting can be pretty awesome. But again, I'm fine with bling vs. splitting marines...the issue is blings vs. afk Terrans with mines everywhere. It's very easy to exploit mines if you know how they work and you can see pros do it a lot. Everyone else (and I do mean pros cause seriously, who cares about a Diamond level player) can do it, and you should too. Good talk. It's clear your angry, so I'd prefer end this discussion here. In all seriousness though, go back and read a few of my previous posts. The point is to show that non-pro Zergs are the ones having the issue. While I agree that's not game-breaking, it is an issue and is also an explaination for the QQ, whether you agree with that or not. It's you're* and I'm not. If non-pro zergs are the ones having trouble with it, where does it stop? Where's the balance in that? What about making WM's non cloaked, or longer burrow time, or smaller radius? And don't forget, if you make it so mines have to use targetting (which, hey I'm not totally against, I'd love if I could specifically target things and not have to worry about it prematurally firing) you're going to make it harder for the low level Terrans. The point is, you're arguing for a point that should NEVER happen. This game WILL get worse if you cater to people who don't have the basic skills that their race requires. If you don't understand that, then there's nothing else I can say. That was a typo and you are mad, lol. And again, I'm not suggesting that the game be "balanced" at all levels; what I'm suggesting is that while it should be balanced around top-level play, other levels need to be observed. At Masters and below, Zerg is having a serious issue dealing with the mobility and punishing randomness of bio-mine. Whether it's a "L2P" situation or a balance issue remains to be seen. We're in different camps on the issue and I'm ok with that. As for possible solutions, I don't think you can reduce the radius or remove the burrow without making the unit completely useless -- it's not an easy unit to balance (and to be honest, it's one I wish they never implemented). As is, two thoughts I think should be explored are 1) making is so mines have a higher priority on the attack list -- it's absolutely infuriating to a-move a group of mines and have your units attack past them at a random marine; and 2) possibly reduce the splash damage slightly as you leave the center of the explosion. If you don't like those options, I'd also be ok with making the unit cost more, but that enters into the bigger question of bio-mine cost-efficiency. As is, the synergy of bio, mines and medevacs is too cost efficienct for how good it is, but tweaking costs or build-times can cause unintended issues. So Terrans below masters can split properly? See what I did there? No, but splitting isn't the issue. So I do not see what you did there, lol. Everything at lower level play is less ideal...injects, muling, splitting, bling micro -- all of it. Mines are just more punishing on non-pro Zergs than any other micro distinction in the game. Again, the issue is how punishing a single mine hit can be -- literally, a good mine shot can end the game. If you lose three Marines to a bling instead of one, it's less drastic. Mines can kill stuff at a 1:12+ resource ratio. When was the last time you lost 20 or so marines to one bling? Baneling landmines? It's 2 banelings instead of 1, but they can ruin a push if the Terran isn't careful. And mines aren't any more punishing for zerg then a psi storm that isn't microed out of, or fungals on an unsplit Terran army etc. This is absolutely a "learn to play" issue. And players (even low level players) will as they gain more experience with the game. The effectiveness of widow mine play depends a lot on the interactions of both players. It's a great unit in that sense. You'll find just as many Terrans complaining about their inconsistency as you will P and Z complaining about them being overpowered. Two blings can't kill 40 Marines -- again, it's a cost-efficiency issue. One mine killing 17 or so blings in one blast should almost always be game over. That extreme is imbalanced. And I addressed psi storm (and EMP) earlier -- we've reached a point of running incircles...my points have all been made over the last few pages. Oh, and I agree that at times mines are incredibly bad -- but that swing of effectiveness speaks to how poorly designed the unit is.
You know what else can take out 17 or so blings. 2blings. 2fungals. 1storm. 1HSM. 1Tank. 1Colossus. 1Archon.
The solution is to not rely on banelings, if you are not good enough to avoid their counter. Or to get better.
Really, the widow mine counters like 1 zerg unit (banelings) and two half (mutalisk, zergling... situational dependend). I really don't care why you believe widow mines are broken, when they are actually kind of bad against most of what you can build.
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EPT
