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On April 08 2013 09:23 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:04 SlixSC wrote:
For one Protoss was never ahead 60 supply at any point in the game, not even once. Secondly, Polt didn't do a 6 medivac drop at all, he killed Sage's army with superior micro and then took out the tech structures in Sage's natural. (and protoss wasn't ever effectively minig 5 base to 3, the protoss lost a huge battle and then lost his 5th and Polt established his 4th shortly after) You are actually making things up... or you uploaded the wrong replay I dont know.
I just checked the link, it works fine for me. I'm really not sure how you can call me a liar on this one. There's a 6-medivac drop into the main at 22:45 that kills the archives/dark shrine and a bunch of other buildings. At 23:45, the supply count is 190 to 134. Ok, that's only 56, so sue me. At 25:00 when the command center at 8:00 is destroyed, it's 5 mining bases to 3. Then Protoss essentially loses at like 26:30 because Terran has a bunch of vikings that kill the Colossi. Templar aren't ready yet on account of the tech being sniped.
Then you are using inaccurate language and the order in which you described the events was completely wrong.
"near the end". I'm sorry but 22:45 in a 30:10 min long game is not "near the end", in your OP you implied that Sage was 60 supply ahead when Polt 6 medivac dropped him, but that actually happened way earlier and you said it was 5 base vs. 3 base, which wasn't the case then, that was actually only the case for a good 2 minutes, roughly 3 minutes later.. You had the order inw hich these events happened totally wrong, how am I supposed to make sense of that?
"Then Protoss essentially loses at like 26:30 because Terran has a bunch of vikings that kill the Colossi. Templar aren't ready yet on account of the tech being sniped"
Really? And the fact that Sage didn't remake his templar archives (he had enough money, just forgot) for almost 3 minutes had nothing to do with that? Listen, if this is the argument you want to go with then fine.
Sage lost his TA, didn't remake it for 3 minutes and subsequently lost because he didn't have High temps in time -> speed medivacs OP. Fine.
And tempest are OP because Goody forgot his starport, banelings are OP because lucifron didn't split and mutas are OP because MVP didn't make turrets.
If we accept human error in our balance arguments we might aswell go all the way.
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1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know)
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On April 08 2013 07:31 m0ck wrote:
Their cost is the strangest thing about the mines. How is that powerful a unit only 75/25?
At the moment, it doesn't matter how many are thrown away. They are so dirt cheap that they are worth their cost 9/10 times - sometimes massively so. The only limit on their use is the APM of the terran. By building 1 widowmine you force multiple overseers/spores from Z, meaning that even before they do damage, they even out their cost by their demanded response from Z.
the problem is not the mine. You can counter the mine with all sorts of Zerg units really well - roaches, hydras, Swarmhosts, Ultras, Infestors, Broodlords.
The problem is that apart from Infestors, Broodlords and Ultras the biomix (actually the marine alone does that already) hardcounters those units to the extend that in higher leagues a Terran can just a-move over you if you try to play them.
And basically any form of non-mutalisk play in TvZ just loses to bio-dropplay.
Right now I believe the best way to play ZvT vs bio is to go 3hatch mutalisk and turtle extremly hard on 3-4bases to 3-3 Infestor/Ultralisk/crackling allin or try to kill greedy, minereliant Terrans with well microed ling/bling or ling/bling/muta busts.
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On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know)
Amateur counting too >_>
RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that.
Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily.
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On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily.
Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting.
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On April 08 2013 19:27 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting.
Roaches don't counter air, mines do :3
Moving a muta flock into mine territory is just asking to lose the game.
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On April 08 2013 19:28 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:27 DeCoup wrote:On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting. Roaches don't counter air, mines do :3 Moving a muta flock into mine territory is just asking to lose the game.
Spores counter air quite well though.
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On April 08 2013 19:32 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:28 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 19:27 DeCoup wrote:On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting. Roaches don't counter air, mines do :3 Moving a muta flock into mine territory is just asking to lose the game. Spores counter air quite well though.
Where are you even going with that analogy?
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On April 08 2013 19:37 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:32 aksfjh wrote:On April 08 2013 19:28 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 19:27 DeCoup wrote:On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting. Roaches don't counter air, mines do :3 Moving a muta flock into mine territory is just asking to lose the game. Spores counter air quite well though. Where are you even going with that analogy?
Nowhere. He just had a need for saying something really stupid...
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On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily.
Why not? What's wrong with it? Mines are a unit like any other.
It's not like QXC *only* built mines either, he relied on tanks to kill hydras and turrets to help against mutas.
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Do we have enough games TvZ/ZvP yet to make a assumption?
I think we will have a big enough sample size if we take in account games of HotS IEM,GSTL,MLG,Proleague.
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On April 08 2013 19:28 Nekovivie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:27 DeCoup wrote:On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting. Roaches don't counter air, mines do :3 Moving a muta flock into mine territory is just asking to lose the game.
so don't move a muta flock into mine territory
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On April 08 2013 20:07 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 19:37 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 19:32 aksfjh wrote:On April 08 2013 19:28 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 19:27 DeCoup wrote:On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:On April 08 2013 09:44 govie wrote:
1. Oracle isnt a threath that cant be stopped and is a usefull unit. Banshee isnt a threath that cant be stopped. U cant compare both because of different rac mechanics and units
2. Zerg seem to have some trouble with mines apparantly. I think best bet would be to boost the speed of overseer. Since zergs should build more of them anyway. When someone goes for a cloakbuild, u simply need alot of detection.
5. Medivacsboost seems to hurt. Maybe they should do something with energycost. Like, when u use boost it drain alot of energy, so the medivac becomes a more of a transportationvessel and can heal even less for a certain amount of time.
(me amateur terran, just so u know) Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Terran can build nothing but marines and win. Zerg can build nothing but Roaches and win. That does not mean marines or roaches need adjusting. Roaches don't counter air, mines do :3 Moving a muta flock into mine territory is just asking to lose the game. Spores counter air quite well though. Where are you even going with that analogy? Nowhere. He just had a need for saying something really stupid...
Oh, so spores aren't good against air? My bad.
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On April 08 2013 20:46 FakeDeath wrote:
Do we have enough games TvZ/ZvP yet to make a assumption?
I think we will have a big enough sample size if we take in account games of HotS IEM,GSTL,MLG,Proleague.
What kind of assumption are we making?
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On April 08 2013 20:46 FakeDeath wrote:
Do we have enough games TvZ/ZvP yet to make a assumption?
I think we will have a big enough sample size if we take in account games of HotS IEM,GSTL,MLG,Proleague.
IEM and MLG qualifiers both happened early on in the HOTS beta, so those tournaments are biased.
So we got GSTL and proleague, which honestly I don't recall seeing terran all kills anyone (but there were 2 zergs and protoss all kills). And the style of the tourney is prob not a good idea since its bo1
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On April 08 2013 20:46 FakeDeath wrote:
Do we have enough games TvZ/ZvP yet to make a assumption?
I think we will have a big enough sample size if we take in account games of HotS IEM,GSTL,MLG,Proleague.
the problem is that the game is shifting a lot right now. Build are unstable as hell.
Right now TvX early game is basically Pandora's box, where anything seems possible - though in TvZ a very fast CC is required.
PvZ openings are getting more figured out, but some 1gate expand builds are still around and 2base hosts seems to be a viability. And the era of hydrabusts hasn't even begun - though it will surely rain terror upon Protoss players in the year to come (and it WILL come, once Protoss players start to test their borders of greed). And what to do in lategame ZvP for Zerg is mostly guesswork at the moment, with many things working to a certain extend, but nothing really looking as if it could beat an airtoss army once it reaches a certain point.
On April 08 2013 20:58 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 20:46 FakeDeath wrote:
Do we have enough games TvZ/ZvP yet to make a assumption?
I think we will have a big enough sample size if we take in account games of HotS IEM,GSTL,MLG,Proleague. IEM and MLG qualifiers both happened early on in the HOTS beta, so those tournaments are biased. So we got GSTL and proleague, which honestly I don't recall seeing terran all kills anyone (but there were 2 zergs and protoss all kills). And the style of the tourney is prob not a good idea since its bo1
+ Show Spoiler +Startale_Sound allkilled NSHoSeo and ByunPrime allkilled AZUBU.
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Yesterday I lost by mass queen and ultras.. was a cool game but reached that army for the zerg I've just burnt out my entire bank of 7 bases (yeah, whirlwind). Probably the queen is the only zerg unit that is really good against voidrays, and ultras are good against everything that don't fly (even against immortals ._.)
The game is really far to be figured out, this is why I laughed hard at the first tears on bnet forums. In the next 2-3 months we'll see something, and I hope that blizzard won't drop some stupid patch before that time (queens range 12 yoraayyyy)
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On April 08 2013 20:42 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Why not? What's wrong with it? Mines are a unit like any other. It's not like QXC *only* built mines either, he relied on tanks to kill hydras and turrets to help against mutas.
Because outside of all-in cheese, you should never be able to spam a single unit and expect to win. Even with the strongest unit comps in WoL (MMM, Colossus deathball, Broodlord/Infestor), there were always other essential supporting units. That's the way it should be. Army composition is part of the skill of the game, and keeps it from being insanely dull. A Terran wasn't supposed to be able to spam Marines in WoL, so they shouldn't be able to spam Mines in HotS.
It's even worse when you consider that Mines are (or at the very least were) supposed to be an area control unit, designed to limit enemy movement somewhat so you can avoid getting outmaneuvered by them. What's going on here? Should it even be POSSIBLE to prevent your opponent's maneuvering around the entire map with such a unit? It's supposed to defend your flanks and make up for poor map control, like the Spider Mine of yore, not act as does a Muta flock or an MMM ball. There seems to be a failure of game design here.
If I could be so bold as to suggest a solution, allow Widow Mines to deal friendly fire damage. This means it's possible to clear them out without detection, although it costs the player significant resources and attention. Hopefully this would result in a game that better suits our desires, although some other buffs might be needed to the Widow Mine after the fact if friendly fire proves to be too painful.
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On April 08 2013 21:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 20:42 Bagi wrote:On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote:
Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. Why not? What's wrong with it? Mines are a unit like any other. It's not like QXC *only* built mines either, he relied on tanks to kill hydras and turrets to help against mutas. Because outside of all-in cheese, you should never be able to spam a single unit and expect to win. Even with the strongest unit comps in WoL (MMM, Colossus deathball, Broodlord/Infestor), there were always other essential supporting units. That's the way it should be. Army composition is part of the skill of the game, and keeps it from being insanely dull. A Terran wasn't supposed to be able to spam Marines in WoL, so they shouldn't be able to spam Mines in HotS. It's even worse when you consider that Mines are (or at the very least were) supposed to be an area control unit, designed to limit enemy movement somewhat so you can avoid getting outmaneuvered by them. What's going on here? Should it even be POSSIBLE to prevent your opponent's maneuvering around the entire map with such a unit? It's supposed to defend your flanks and make up for poor map control, like the Spider Mine of yore, not act as does a Muta flock or an MMM ball. There seems to be a failure of game design here. If I could be so bold as to suggest a solution, allow Widow Mines to deal friendly fire damage. This means it's possible to clear them out without detection, although it costs the player significant resources and attention. Hopefully this would result in a game that better suits our desires, although some other buffs might be needed to the Widow Mine after the fact if friendly fire proves to be too painful.
They do deal friendly damage. Check your facts next time buddy.
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EPT
