Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 429

On April 08 2013 04:30 freetgy wrote:


guess you have never played super lategame, where Terran has enough vikings and ghosts in lategame.
There is no counter to this in the protoss arsenal to this (army wise), even Grubby told he had this issue on to understand what to do against this composition.

While Protoss should have the more durable army design wise, most of their units are glass canons.

On April 08 2013 05:33 Wombat_NI wrote:
That's what it's being used for currently, I still feel it has a lot of interesting value if people experiment more with envision to aid their information/positioning based on that.

On April 08 2013 07:07 Blezza wrote:
QXC just beat IdrA with quite literally mass widow mine

truly broken.

On April 08 2013 06:57 aksfjh wrote:

More Protoss need to use the Revelation ability with it. For all the fuss that Terran got for being able to "scan anywhere for scouting purposes!" Protoss haven't been using their 60s long scan very much. Mid and lategame engagements can end so well for them if they get into a semi-decent position, so uninterrupted vision that can't be "sniped" seems like a boon to the race.

On April 08 2013 07:07 Blezza wrote:
QXC just beat IdrA with quite literally mass widow mine

truly broken.

On April 08 2013 07:31 m0ck wrote:
Their cost is the strangest thing about the mines. How is that powerful a unit only 75/25?

At the moment, it doesn't matter how many are thrown away. They are so dirt cheap that they are worth their cost 9/10 times - sometimes massively so. The only limit on their use is the APM of the terran. By building 1 widowmine you force multiple overseers/spores from Z, meaning that even before they do damage, they even out their cost by their demanded response from Z.

On April 08 2013 07:14 Bagi wrote:

Please be a joke post...

On April 08 2013 07:35 TheChosenPessimist wrote:


Actually he did beat IdrA with only Widow Mines.

On April 08 2013 07:47 Bagi wrote:

I saw the game, but one game where Idra is already tilting hard isn't exactly evidence of imbalance.

On April 08 2013 05:34 Yello wrote:
I think lategame TvP is pretty even. Protoss has the better reinforcement abilities because of the warp-in mechanic, Terran has the better overall army with mass Ghosts, ~8 Medivacs, ~12 Vikings (not quite sure, I think 12 was the number to one-shot a Colossus?) and more army supply because of the ability to sack SCVs and mine Minerals with Mules.
Protoss however has the ability to trade even with really good micro (target fire with Colossai, flanks with HTs from every possible direction, good army positioning (playing the chess game, where you try to get the better position), Stalker target fire and fast warpins during the fight.
Of course that is a lot to do but Protoss doesn't have to win the fight straight-up, Protoss has to trade so that the Terran's army isn't big enough to deal with the reinforcements or to push further.

I think in pro matches in lategame TvP mostly the player with the more intelligent positioning and better army micro wins.

It's pretty cool that we are still far from perfect play and there is always stuff to improve upon. Nobody is able to micro a lategame army perfectly (yet).

I'm not quite sure on the Oracle though. Of course there is some potential to play around with Revelation.
The Oracle could also be a mid-game harassment unit in both PvT and PvZ. In PvT the Protoss would need to send a hallucinated Oracle in first to tank a widow mine shot, then get in with 2 Oracles, kill a few SCVs or make the Terran pull all the SCVs and then get out again without losing them. They are fast enough to survive for quite a long time and pros should have the multitasking abilities to do midgame Oracle harassment.

On April 08 2013 08:35 Xequecal wrote:


http://www.sc2-replays.net/en/replays/11037--vs-,belshir-vestige

This game is a pretty good example of the problem. Near the end of the game, Protoss is on 5 bases to the Terran's 3 bases, Terran is almost on one mining base because the natural is nearly completely mined out, and Protoss is ahead by 60 supply. However, the 6-medivac drop into the main killed the archives and dark shrine so Protoss dies anyway as soon as the Vikings hit because all his units are useless after the Colossi die.

On April 08 2013 09:04 SlixSC wrote:
For one Protoss was never ahead 60 supply at any point in the game, not even once. Secondly, Polt didn't do a 6 medivac drop at all, he killed Sage's army with superior micro and then took out the tech structures in Sage's natural. (and protoss wasn't ever effectively minig 5 base to 3, the protoss lost a huge battle and then lost his 5th and Polt established his 4th shortly after) You are actually making things up... or you uploaded the wrong replay I dont know.

On April 08 2013 07:35 TheChosenPessimist wrote:


Actually he did beat IdrA with only Widow Mines.

On April 08 2013 09:23 Xequecal wrote:


I just checked the link, it works fine for me. I'm really not sure how you can call me a liar on this one. There's a 6-medivac drop into the main at 22:45 that kills the archives/dark shrine and a bunch of other buildings. At 23:45, the supply count is 190 to 134. Ok, that's only 56, so sue me. At 25:00 when the command center at 8:00 is destroyed, it's 5 mining bases to 3. Then Protoss essentially loses at like 26:30 because Terran has a bunch of vikings that kill the Colossi. Templar aren't ready yet on account of the tech being sniped.

On April 08 2013 09:23 Assirra wrote:

How is that even possible? Did IdrA kept running his army into the mines every single time?