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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:09 Acritter wrote: If I could be so bold as to suggest a solution, allow Widow Mines to deal friendly fire damage. They already do, unless you meant something else. Them doing FF doesn't really have much impact though, sure you might lose a few marines if they target a zergling, but they are just pawns. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 08 2013 17:55 Nekovivie wrote: Amateur counting too >_> RE: The mines, I was hesitant at first, they seemed counterable with good micro and detection, but I watched a game yesterday on IdrA's stream where qxc built nothing but mines, mines and more mines. Maybe he made a few marines early but I don't recall any after that. Now sure, IdrA has his faults and weaknesses, but you shouldn't be able to just spam mines and keep a GM player at bay pretty easily. I like IdrA's stream because he comments his games, really cool. And i think its really hard too, because u play and comment at the same time, that takes skill. Most fun is when IdrA plays Dragon because the chat explodes on both channels, so funny:D Well i feel that zerg should build more static defence and more detection in there builds anyway against Terran. I understand all the new harras takes some time to counter. Maybe IdrA played too greedy, i dont know, but it doesnt sound logical to me, that u loose to only mines... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:09 Acritter wrote: Because outside of all-in cheese, you should never be able to spam a single unit and expect to win. Even with the strongest unit comps in WoL (MMM, Colossus deathball, Broodlord/Infestor), there were always other essential supporting units. That's the way it should be. Army composition is part of the skill of the game, and keeps it from being insanely dull. A Terran wasn't supposed to be able to spam Marines in WoL, so they shouldn't be able to spam Mines in HotS. It's even worse when you consider that Mines are (or at the very least were) supposed to be an area control unit, designed to limit enemy movement somewhat so you can avoid getting outmaneuvered by them. What's going on here? Should it even be POSSIBLE to prevent your opponent's maneuvering around the entire map with such a unit? It's supposed to defend your flanks and make up for poor map control, like the Spider Mine of yore, not act as does a Muta flock or an MMM ball. There seems to be a failure of game design here. If I could be so bold as to suggest a solution, allow Widow Mines to deal friendly fire damage. This means it's possible to clear them out without detection, although it costs the player significant resources and attention. Hopefully this would result in a game that better suits our desires, although some other buffs might be needed to the Widow Mine after the fact if friendly fire proves to be too painful. it's hardly a mine right now, more a burrowed rocket launcher trap. And what mines do for gameplay is completely up to the game. Not every mine must only be used like a spider mine "because it was like that in BW". Not to mention that the mine DOES protect the bio from flanks and from controls areas. On April 08 2013 21:13 Zorgaz wrote: They do deal friendly damage. Check your facts next time buddy. They do friendly but not against mines which is what he implied. Mines cleaning out mines. At least as far as I understand it. | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:16 govie wrote: I like IdrA's stream because he comments his games, really cool. And i think its really hard too, because u play and comment at the same time, that takes skill. Most fun is when IdrA plays Dragon because the chat explodes on both channels, so funny:D Well i feel that zerg should build more static defence and more detection in there builds anyway against Terran. I understand all the new harras takes some time to counter. Maybe IdrA played too greedy, i dont know, but it doesnt sound logical to me, that u loose to only mines... They do a crazy amount of damage for their cost, large splash area, and you can spam them from reactor factories. Even if you aren't cost effective with them (which is fucking impossible when they only cost 75/25), you can still do terrible terrible damage. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:09 Acritter wrote: Because outside of all-in cheese, you should never be able to spam a single unit and expect to win. Even with the strongest unit comps in WoL (MMM, Colossus deathball, Broodlord/Infestor), there were always other essential supporting units. That's the way it should be. Army composition is part of the skill of the game, and keeps it from being insanely dull. A Terran wasn't supposed to be able to spam Marines in WoL, so they shouldn't be able to spam Mines in HotS. It's even worse when you consider that Mines are (or at the very least were) supposed to be an area control unit, designed to limit enemy movement somewhat so you can avoid getting outmaneuvered by them. What's going on here? Should it even be POSSIBLE to prevent your opponent's maneuvering around the entire map with such a unit? It's supposed to defend your flanks and make up for poor map control, like the Spider Mine of yore, not act as does a Muta flock or an MMM ball. There seems to be a failure of game design here. You might have an argument if qxc actually just massed mines and NOTHING ELSE, but his mines were supported by tanks and what's wrong with mine/tank being a viable unit comp? Even in the hypothetical situation that he only massed mines all it would take from the zerg player is hydras, overseers and a bit of patience and there would be nothing the terran could do about it. What comes to mine/tank, sufficient numbers of SHs or alternatively BLs hard counter it. So where is the problem again? Also saying that the unit is designed for a certain role and shouldn't be used outside that role is fucking idiotic. The beauty of Starcraft comes from people doing the unexpected and using units in ways the devs couldn't even dream of. It's called diversity and depth. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
I just want to know win rate percentages across all races. Also,what role does SH actually play now? It seems like more like a niche mid-game unit now. I really disliked how Mines already phased out the Siege Tanks. They should buff tanks and nerf mines now. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:33 FakeDeath wrote: I just want to know win rate percentages across all races. Also,what role does SH actually play now? It seems like more like a niche mid-game unit now. I really disliked how Mines already phased out the Siege Tanks. They should buff tanks and nerf mines now. Unfortunately we don have winrates for more than half of a year now. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:21 Nekovivie wrote: They do a crazy amount of damage for their cost, large splash area, and you can spam them from reactor factories. Even if you aren't cost effective with them (which is fucking impossible when they only cost 75/25), you can still do terrible terrible damage. They also don't require a seperate line of upgrades, which IMHO is the main reason they're getting used over tanks. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:21 Nekovivie wrote: They do a crazy amount of damage for their cost, large splash area, and you can spam them from reactor factories. Even if you aren't cost effective with them (which is fucking impossible when they only cost 75/25), you can still do terrible terrible damage. The thing is that they only shoot "once in a blue moon" and you could learn to deal with them by abusing this. An "army" fully made out of Widow Mines wont be effective at all. The biggest problem of the unit is the paranoia it creates ... | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
Zergling/baneling defense is what Zergs are sticking to and it's not cost-efficient if the Terran is minding his drops, especially when the bio is positioned in nooks and crannies that form a choke where Lings get crushed. Swarm hosts seem to have the DPS to get rid of drops so much more efficiently, especially in conjunction with some well-placed static D to tank, but it's yet to be properly explored. Might be terrible, might not. | ||
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centergoliath4
37 Posts
I feel the ONLY NERF WIDOW MINES NEED is they need to have "normal" combat priority 100% of the time, even when burrowed or unburrowed, but ONLY to ranged units melee units will STILL run past mines allowed chargelots/zerglings to blitz the bio and make the mines deal friendly fire however, whats really lame is having terran engage and have him run 15 mines up to your army and burrow them with drilling claws. its only 15 roaches worth of supply BUT the mines actually DO NOT have combat priority meaning all of your ranged units will not try to shoot the mines instead they will move forward trying to fight the bio while mines run up to them and burrow. Ranged units should treat the unburrowed and burrowed mines with normal combat priority meaning the mines would all die as they run towards your ranged ball and try to burrow OOPS BUT I FORGOT ONE THING. mines that have been deployed (cooldown in effect) should keep the lower combat priority. This means in combat when the front mines go off your ranged units will IGNORE deployed mines and fight the bio, but mines that HAVNT BEEN DEPLOYED YET and are running up trying to burrow should have higher combat priority | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On April 08 2013 21:46 larse wrote: Without bl/infestor, Protoss have done so many all kills in tournaments recently. Protoss looks like will be op for a while. *Super mega ultimate facepalm* please list this high number of all-kills. Tell me which HOTS tourney do far a Protoss has won. Protoss not OP. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
 He had a 10 minute window to end Empirekas in game 1, but didnt. Zerg is not helpless, its just there gps is busted atm and they have become too paranoia and stearless | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:02 centergoliath4 wrote: I feel the ONLY NERF WIDOW MINES NEED is they need to have "normal" combat priority 100% of the time, even when burrowed or unburrowed, but ONLY to ranged units melee units will STILL run past mines allowed chargelots/zerglings to blitz the bio and make the mines deal friendly fire however, whats really lame is having terran engage and have him run 15 mines up to your army and burrow them with drilling claws. its only 15 roaches worth of supply BUT the mines actually DO NOT have combat priority meaning all of your ranged units will not try to shoot the mines instead they will move forward trying to fight the bio while mines run up to them and burrow. Ranged units should treat the unburrowed and burrowed mines with normal combat priority meaning the mines would all die as they run towards your ranged ball and try to burrow OOPS BUT I FORGOT ONE THING. mines that have been deployed (cooldown in effect) should keep the lower combat priority. This means in combat when the front mines go off your ranged units will IGNORE deployed mines and fight the bio, but mines that HAVNT BEEN DEPLOYED YET and are running up trying to burrow should have higher combat priority If you hold position your ranged units will attack the mines instead of chasing the enemy. This assumes that the enemy is out of range of said units, but the back line should be. | ||
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Duncaaaaaan
United Kingdom101 Posts
-open 15 cc -barracks as soon as possible -zerg scouts this and makes a roach warren or baneling nest to punish your greediness -grab 2 gas asap and make 2 factories asap -one with tech lab, one with reactor -make siege tank and widow mines -finish walling off ramp You're now safe against any roaches or banelings -zerg walks up ramp and loses a ton of resources to all that splash damage -they go into 'oh shit I need to make drones!' mode -make 3rd and move down ramp to secure 3rd -zerg is droning aggressively to catch up so its totally fine but still be careful -get to 200/200 mech army with emphasis on siege tanks -gas is the only resource you need so scan liberally to see his tech -make a wall of PFs around your army and secure 4th Ok, now you just turtle. The zerg can't kill you with any amount of land army. If the zerg refuses to attack you, slowly kill off your army and remax with BCs, ravens, thors and vikings. Sack your workers in your main when it's mined out, you don't need them. That will free up 20 or so supply = 3 more BCs, 10 more ravens, whatever you want Now go and do that doom push. Zerg can do nothing but watch aghast at the carnage that is yamato cannons, seeker missiles and PDDs. | ||
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wswas
16 Posts
even stephano is complaining about balance now. that's when you know shit's fucked up. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 09 2013 05:39 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: If you hold position your ranged units will attack the mines instead of chasing the enemy. This assumes that the enemy is out of range of said units, but the back line should be. They'll also attack them if nothing else is in range, i.e. they're stuck behind the front lines and can't get close enough to the army. | ||
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