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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:44 eoLiD wrote: Because its either to learn how to beat the style when watching the stream of the guy that is playing it than learning it by watching the stream of the guy who is actually beating it? Obviously he's not beating it though... | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:06 Emzeeshady wrote: Stephano >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> QXC The fact that QXC can beat Stephano frightens me. So what has Stephano done exactly so far in HoTS? Don't forget this is a new game. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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eoLiD
Germany4 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:04 aksfjh wrote: And then Stephano wins with pure roach the next game against mass mine+tanks... 44 minutes later ... | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote: The annoyance for me about mass mines, is that it's exactly what the unit should not be. As a space-control/defensive unit, liberally sprinkled, I quite like it. If it's a unit that indeed is 'massable', well then it seems to have exceeded its remit design wise Please do explain to me why creating small niches for units and then forcing them into those niches (through nerfs/buffs) is beneficial for the diversity of the game. Isn't that exactly what people complain about, units in SC2 being too specialized compared to BW? Yet some people want to push that agenda even further? | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:54 Bagi wrote: Please do explain to me why creating small niches for units and then forcing them into those niches (through nerfs/buffs) is beneficial for the diversity of the game. Isn't that exactly what people complain about, units in SC2 being too specialized compared to BW? Yet some people want to push that agenda even further? I am not against them being a core unit. They should not be MASSABLE, I most would share this opinion. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:00 Emzeeshady wrote: So do you want mass widow mines to be viable? I agree that units should have some overlap purpose but not massed especially when the unit is so obviously designed to be a backup unit. People massed vultures for mostly spider mines, didn't they? I don't see a problem with it, as long as there are counters and the overall strat isn't deemed overpowered. FWIW I think once zergs get more comfortable at adding swarm hosts to their army, this mass widow mine gimmick will become obsolete in no time. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:05 Wombat_NI wrote: I am not against them being a core unit. They should not be MASSABLE, I most would share this opinion. Define massable for me? If I make tanks and mines at a 1:2 ratio, so that the tanks are there to protect the mines, am I massing mines? Because that's the only scenario I can imagine where it becomes painful for zerg when you can't just slowly clear them with hydras/SHs/whatnot. But at the same time it seems like a smart unit comp for terran. Now pure mine is more of a gimmick build that will only kill people when it catches them off guard, as there is no logical reason why anyone wouldn't be able to kill them with units that have superior range. So if that is your definition of massable, you can rest easy because they truly aren't. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
Touche. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:08 Wombat_NI wrote: They made a lot of spider mines to back up tanks and to harass sometimes. Unless this isn't 'mass' widowmines and is instead them being used in that kind of capacity it's just silly to me. Isn't that what most terrans use mines for now anyway? To back up other units and use them for harassment? I don't see the use of mines changed that much from BW to be honest. The only notable change is that they can be used to defend against air units. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:23 Mehukannu wrote: Isn't that what most terrans use mines for now anyway? To back up other units and use them for harassment? I don't see the use of mines changed that much from BW to be honest. The only notable change is that they can be used to defend against air units. I don't mind that, read my posts. I am referring to this trend where people claim that 'mass mines' is becoming a thing. My bandwidth is too low to check at present, perhaps they are just exaggerating, which I very much hope. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:00 Emzeeshady wrote: Remember the era of roach max? Did it feel broken to play against at the time? Absolutely! Did it get figured out and go away? Yes it did. The roach didn't need anything done to it, just time for people to adapt and figure out how to beat it. That is what needs to happen here. Zergs need to adapt and take time to figure it out. The game hasn't even been out officially for a month yet. We already have people like Catz claiming another supposedly broken composition, Air Toss, is beatable when even two weeks ago people were convinced it was impossible. I would wager that it will be the same with widow mines. Once people are comfortable with them they won't be nearly as difficult to beat. Units like the Swarm Host haven't even been close to fully explored yet. I wouldn't be shocked if it were great at dealing with mass mines.So do you want mass widow mines to be viable? I agree that units should have some overlap purpose but not massed especially when the unit is so obviously designed to be a backup unit. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:24 Wombat_NI wrote: I don't mind that, read my posts. I am referring to this trend where people claim that 'mass mines' is becoming a thing. My bandwidth is too low to check at present, perhaps they are just exaggerating, which I very much hope. There's some massing aspect. For the first 12-15 minutes, it's mostly being used as defense along with a couple of mine drops, then mines start getting made en mass. At that point, they're paired with ravens, tanks, BCs, and/or thors. Any opposing army is suicide rushed by mines, but the armies are both scrappy at that point. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:25 Ben... wrote: Remember the era of roach max? Did it feel broken to play against at the time? Absolutely! Did it get figured out and go away? Yes it did. The roach didn't need anything done to it, just time for people to adapt and figure out how to beat it. That is what needs to happen here. Zergs need to adapt and take time to figure it out. The game hasn't even been out officially for a month yet. We already have people like Catz claiming another supposedly broken composition, Air Toss, is beatable when even two weeks ago people were convinced it was impossible. I would wager that it will be the same with widow mines. Once people are comfortable with them they won't be nearly as difficult to beat. Units like the Swarm Host haven't even been close to fully explored yet. I wouldn't be shocked if it were great at dealing with mass mines. The max roach build has been figured out and Protoss have learn to defend it by adapting build and timing, the problem wasn't the unit itself that was too strong, in reality roach are pretty much garbage, but the timing at which you could flood with roach that was really strong. That's why it isn't something comparable, problem with the Widow Mine in TvZ is, in my opinion, is the unit itself has no real answer to it, it's not the timing. It's a fast, really cheap, invisible unit that one shot almost every unit in the zerg arsenal, and then one shot ling/baneling in a huge area of effect that you don't need to micro to be effective (but if you do, it's might be even better). | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 09 2013 08:25 Ben... wrote: Remember the era of roach max? Did it feel broken to play against at the time? Absolutely! Did it get figured out and go away? Yes it did. The roach didn't need anything done to it, just time for people to adapt and figure out how to beat it. That is what needs to happen here. Zergs need to adapt and take time to figure it out. The game hasn't even been out officially for a month yet. We already have people like Catz claiming another supposedly broken composition, Air Toss, is beatable when even two weeks ago people were convinced it was impossible. I would wager that it will be the same with widow mines. Once people are comfortable with them they won't be nearly as difficult to beat. Units like the Swarm Host haven't even been close to fully explored yet. I wouldn't be shocked if it were great at dealing with mass mines. The biggest problem is the mechanic of a mine. How does it choose his target. My bet is that leaving 1 roach as a kamikazehotspot around minerallines would be usefull. Best defence against WMdrops with 5 zerglings and a overseer to clean the mines up after the roach has been hit. If it would work, u only need to deal with MMMM pushes, which arent scary when drops are less effective at killing your eco  But, i dont know if thaats viable.. anyone? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On April 09 2013 10:11 Emzeeshady wrote: I wouldn't know, I was too young to watch BW. I am not sure there is a problem either. It just gets frustrating losing to Terrans that are way worse then me. Welcome to T and P vZ for the last months of WoL man. Not that Zergs should have to be made to feel our pain in HoTS, I advocate a game that is fun and challenging for all in equal measure. | ||
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