EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 434
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m0ck
4194 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 09 2013 10:42 m0ck wrote: Seeing mine+def tank -> mine+planetary spam -> mine + T air once is enough. I really hope that that is not something we'll see as a stable way of playing the game. If u can stop WMdrops of dameging your eco, u have beaten the worst part of widowmines usage. They are really bad units once u covered first base (shutting down damage to your eco threw drops). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23783 Posts
On April 09 2013 10:42 m0ck wrote: Seeing mine+def tank -> mine+planetary spam -> mine + T air once is enough. I really hope that that is not something we'll see as a stable way of playing the game. Hopefully not, but we shall have to wait and see if that is the case. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
Saying that "oh, mech is boring" is not the right reason to deny Terran's entire tech path. Terran tech path in HOTS is as one-dimensional as in WOL. Zerg and Protoss can utilize their whole tech paths now, while Terran just goes for one tech path all day long, since 2010. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23783 Posts
On April 09 2013 11:00 larse wrote: There are many people love Mech play, especially on TL. Saying that "oh, mech is boring" is not the right reason to deny Terran's entire tech path. Terran tech path in HOTS is as one-dimensional as in WOL. Zerg and Protoss can utilize their whole tech paths now, while Terran just goes for one tech path all day long, since 2010. Do you have any other topics you actually post on? I really don't give a shit about making mech good in one matchup, if it potentially destabilises the entire game in doing so. Most 'solutions' to TvP mech involve massive changes that are going to throw so many other balls in the air in doing so. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On April 09 2013 10:54 govie wrote: If u can stop WMdrops of dameging your eco, u have beaten the worst part of widowmines usage. They are really bad units once u covered first base (shutting down damage to your eco threw drops). You should check out QXC playing, he manages to make them work later in the game. I oversimplified in my description, there are drop-ships and perhaps some hell-bats thrown in early on, but the mines mainly work to keep the zerg defensive while T takes half the map with planetarys and techs to the very strong air composition. It is pretty damn hard to kill ~6-10 mines running together cost-effectively (and it will definitely require your full attention to do so) and as they only represent a value of 750/250, its less than 20 seconds of income at the 3+ base stage. At the same time, 10 mines can cause massive, game-ending damage to an unprepared player. QXC is smart to have figured it out, but it will not go over well in a tournament setting, I promise you. While initially amusing, it takes forever to play out the game and leaves the Z looking both helpless and hapless. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
On April 09 2013 11:03 Wombat_NI wrote: Do you have any other topics you actually post on? I really don't give a shit about making mech good in one matchup, if it potentially destabilises the entire game in doing so. Most 'solutions' to TvP mech involve massive changes that are going to throw so many other balls in the air in doing so. I think it's my focus at the moment, because HOTS has opened up many many tech paths for Protoss and Zerg. This is a very good thing. It's contrary to the one-dimensional tech path of Protoss and Zerg especially in PvZ as we saw in WOL. The only thing that is not very good is Terran's most tech paths are still being denied hard. I just think it's the most important issue at the moment. Just like BL/Infestor was the most important issue back in the later days of WOL. It has nothing to do with balance. It's just the lack of diversity should be emphasized more. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 09 2013 11:05 m0ck wrote: You should check out QXC playing, he manages to make them work later in the game. I oversimplified in my description, there are drop-ships and perhaps some hell-bats thrown in early on, but the mines mainly work to keep the zerg defensive while T takes half the map with planetarys and techs to the very strong air composition. It is pretty damn hard to kill ~6-10 mines running together cost-effectively (and it will definitely require your full attention to do so) and as they only represent a value of 750/250, its less than 20 seconds of income at the 3+ base stage. At the same time, 10 mines can cause massive, game-ending damage to an unprepared player. QXC is smart to have figured it out, but it will not go over well in a tournament setting, I promise you. While initially amusing, it takes forever to play out the game and leaves the Z looking both helpless and hapless. Mines that come from 1 direction over ground is not scary or unstoppable. disable drops and its ezpz. p.s. Ive seen it on stream. He lost too. He said that a roach timing attack killed his build and there was another strat that killed it too. He even said SH isnt the answer to widowmines at all. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On April 09 2013 11:10 govie wrote: Mines that come from 1 direction over ground is not scary or unstoppable. disable drops and its ezpz. p.s. Ive seen it on stream. He lost too. He said that a roach timing attack killed his build and there was another strat that killed it too. He even said SH isnt the answer to widowmines at all. If you've seen him play, you also know that it's not as easy as simply "stopping them". There is no rule that only one pack can be running around at a time and disabling drops is easier said than done. In any case, simply having WMs running on the ground is usually enough to trade evenly with your opponent. It's really hard getting the right amount of vision without any units getting lost in the skirmish. And the main part: they keep your opponents focus on his side of the map. If not, he will lose his economy. And sooner or later T air rolls in to win the map. In any case, having a build that is stopped by a roach-timing and one other thing sounds pretty strong to me ^^ | ||
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baba1
Canada355 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:52 Emzeeshady wrote: Qualify for RO32 at MLG, make it to top 12 at Dream hack and get to number 1 grandmaster. It isn't much by Stephano's standards but that is about as much as QXC has accomplished in his career. Well he did all kill IM a while ago  Mines required an incredible amount of baby sitting and micro to kill. They are so good they trade cost effectively with locusts  No but seriously shouldn't mines splash damage hit other mines too? Or not hit workers? There is something missing about mines. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23783 Posts
On April 09 2013 11:30 Emzeeshady wrote: Well I do understand Terrans pain at the end of WOL. I even apologized and felt bad about beating them on the ladder to the pint where I stopped myself from making infestors vs T. But I do NOT feel any sympathy for Protoss during this time. I practiced for hours to try and stop the imm/sentry all in and it was still fucking impossible. That strat has to be the most op thing in SC2 to date. I had to switch to Protoss to get any wins vs my Toss practice partners (my 43% PvP winrate was better then my 33% ZvP win rate -_-). I don't know about Koreans but holy shit was it hard to beat Protoss as the average ladder player. Lol, again no disagreement there on the Won/Won/Won. I tried for months to play for the lategame, with warp prisms everywhere, praying for those vortexes to hit properly etc. Eventually went, learnt the build and was beating Zergs not just on my level easily, but Zergs far better than me. Believe me, for those that value strategy, and especially variable strategy it was a pain too. I'd win games and be like, 'oh, I won', without any of the satisfaction you should be feeling. I quit playing WoL for like, the last 3, 4 months of the game, it's a situation I don't want to see repeated, even if my race is the 'OP' race, I do not wish for that. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23783 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:47 Wombat_NI wrote: The annoyance for me about mass mines, is that it's exactly what the unit should not be. As a space-control/defensive unit, liberally sprinkled, I quite like it. If it's a unit that indeed is 'massable', well then it seems to have exceeded its remit design wise This hits the nail on the head perfectly, but sadly the flaw isnt one intrinsic to the Widow Mine which could be fixed with a small nerf but rather one which lies in the core design of SC2 ... it is the MASSEABLE part which makes units awful. This has been the case for Infestors and now it is the case for Widow Mines. The only "fix" is to get rid of the massive economy and the production speed boosts to reduce the numbers of units on the map by a significant amount. People would have to micro to save their units again instead of simply "macroing it up". On April 09 2013 10:11 Emzeeshady wrote: I wouldn't know, I was too young to watch BW. I am not sure there is a problem either. It just gets frustrating losing to Terrans that are way worse then me. There are still some BW streams out there and videos on Youtube aplenty, so the "too young" argument doesnt count if you really wanted to make an effort. The more important part is that you actually play the game to feel the difference; you just have to get over the childish - if you have that - "boohoo, only 12 unit selection limit" and "boohoo my workers dont automatically mine" and so on stuff. Sadly BW doesnt support newer versions of Windows, so you have to be a little bit tricksy to make the colors work [I failed even though I tried several things  ].So go on watching and/or playing some BW! | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
"Mines are such bad design because now Dragoons don't have awful pathing anymore, which was why BW was great!!!". Yeah... no. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23783 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On April 09 2013 12:20 ZenithM wrote: Stop trying to go back to some supposedly "flawed" design of Starcraft 2 mechanics. It's the "Designated Balance thread", not the "Design and Balance thread". "Mines are such bad design because now Dragoons don't have awful pathing anymore, which was why BW was great!!!". Yeah... no. If the CORE GAME MECHANICS are CREATING FLAWS then this is a valid point to make. Just disprove the theory that 1-4 Infestors are not as overpowered as 30 ... Just disprove the theory that 3 Marines vs. 1 Stalker is viable for the Stalker because of kiting and 30 Marines vs. 10 Stalkers isnt because the Marines total dps simply kills them too fast ... Many of the problems of the "new game" are created by its "new mechanics" ... this is something we could LEARN from BW. + Show Spoiler + If we fail to learn from "history" (what happened in the past) then we fail at being humans, because we arent evolving but rather repeat mistakes and fail to adapt. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 09 2013 13:24 Rabiator wrote: If the CORE GAME MECHANICS are CREATING FLAWS then this is a valid point to make. It's not, because Blizzard precisely won't change "core game mechanics". That's why it's high time we understand that we have to stop asking for the removal of warpgate and replacement of colossus by the reaver, it's not happening. Just disprove the theory that 1-4 Infestors are not as overpowered as 30 ... Wtf? 4 old infestors were just as overpowered as 30 old infestors. Blizzard changed the design of the unit when they changed games, remember? Probably the only time it was worth talking about design, but it's not anymore. Many of the problems of the "new game" are created by its "new mechanics" ... this is something we could LEARN from BW. + Show Spoiler + If we fail to learn from "history" (what happened in the past) then we fail at being humans, because we arent evolving but rather repeat mistakes and fail to adapt. Some among us actually don't think there is a problem in SC2 to begin with, let alone many. And I'm grateful you put out of place third-rate philosophy in a spoiler, but I still ended up reading it :'( | ||
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ETisME
12276 Posts
On April 09 2013 12:23 Wombat_NI wrote: I do feel BW > SC2 from a viewing perspective, but I also do not believe that modern gamers would put up with the kind of mechanical restrictions/difficulty that BW has, I just don't. I especially agree with the above post. Babysitting army pathing, AI, scv mining, limited unit selection and control ground are frustrating experience more than anything. It's not rewarding to have your army able to move to where you want to go. not rewarding for making scvs and tell them to mine. Even if BW is indeed more fun to watch, the game experience itself is frustrating, then please just make it stay at the "flawed" sc2 level. | ||
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