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On April 09 2013 18:32 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 18:02 Hypemeup wrote:On April 09 2013 17:52 Nekovivie wrote:
I just hope they take a closer look at the widow mine, instead of leaving it for almost a year like they did with WoL infestors.
It's five times as difficult to counter mines as it is to use them. I think that is the point, terran gets an easy to use-Hard to deal with unit to bring the other races up to Terrans micro requirements. I noticed a pattern in the new units overall for that. Terran got very easy to use units/abilities while Zerg and Protoss got units that require thought to properly use. I think it was to fix the fact that terran had way more requirements with their lategame army compared to Z/P. That actually isn't quite 100% right. Terran indeed got the hellbat, an A-move friendly unit, while Protoss got Oracle and Zerg got Vipers which are quite micro intensive. However, all races got static/positional units that don't require many APMs to use (mine, tempest, swarmhosts). I'm sure mines will take a lot of positional skill anyway once Blizzard gives them a taste of their nerfhammer :D
then you haven't played properly with swarmhosts yet. If the opponent just does as much as threaten to pressure them, you better control them properly or you will just lose them for free.
They are basically like bio in that regard:
If you have enough/the opponent isn't properly prepared --> a move. If the opponent has enough to actually combat them --> you have a fuckton to do to make them work.
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I would remove the upgrade for mines and reduce aoe for all those reason mentioned above.
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
On April 09 2013 20:08 Bagi wrote:
No, you just slightly tone down the AOE so that one lucky mine won't kill 12 banes at once. It will still oneshot mutas and be effective against ling/bane, but makes them a little less scary for zerg to attack into.
It's called taking baby steps towards a balanced unit, a concept many people here don't seem to understand at all.
I'm all for baby steps, I just see it differently from you on this.
Anyway, at least they are currently a useful unit for Terran, which is a better starting point than having to buff stuff until it sees use.
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I have been thinking about this for a day or two, and it's not directed at units specifically but more game-play wise.
Viewers and players both want a dynamic and versatile game. The games should be able to be played with many variable styles and strategies that are all viable. So what's the problem then? The answer to me is sort of counter intuitive:
Harassing/drop/stealth plays can do ridiculous amounts of damage but they are also very easily shut down. The perfect example is the new medivac afterburners. In WoL drop by Terrans were by the end becoming a thing of the past because they would get shut down completely. The afterburners are a necessity, and I believe need to remain, to encourage drop style play. It can still be shut down relatively easily but at the same time if the defender makes the slightest mistake they can take catastrophic damage. The essence is that people ask for nerfs to units that are precisely like this, i.e, WM, Afterburners, Oracle, etc,. The problem is that if the play is shut down then the defender is quite far ahead.
I feel that the balancing between aggressive/drop/harass type plays vs. standard/turtle/defense play is way too polar which ends up favoring the latter overall. Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? Personally I don't, so regardless of how frustrated I feel when I get WM in my mineral line, or something, it's still better than just macroing for 20 min. The game needs to shift to have lower potential damage from harass/drops style plays and at the same time enable that sort of play through either adjustments in static defense or maps where the outcome is very similar when people are trading armies rather than: "Oh I just lost 30 drones, gg, I guess." or "He scouted my DT, now I'm behind."
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On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms.
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On April 09 2013 20:40 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms.
Harass is not supposed to kill the other guy outright.
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On April 09 2013 20:40 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms.
this unit kills marines in a very questionable ratio. What do you want more?
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On April 09 2013 21:25 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 20:40 Rossie wrote:On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms. Harass is not supposed to kill the other guy outright.
that's not what he said. He said he wants to be able to pick of buildings. Like drops are doing all the time.
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On April 09 2013 21:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:25 Hypemeup wrote:On April 09 2013 20:40 Rossie wrote:On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms. Harass is not supposed to kill the other guy outright. that's not what he said. He said he wants to be able to pick of buildings. Like drops are doing all the time.
He also himself said that sometimes oracles can pick of Tlabs.
And single drops should never pick off any building, it requires a screwup on the other guys end.
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can someone explain to me why widow mines don't take attack priority, is this intentional? This is a HUGE problem when they are mixed into an army, when you go to attack your units just ignore the mines and run right past them or on top of them and dont even attack them, they just attack the units behind them. This means to kill them before they go off you have to actually click on them and when there are 10-12 mines this is impossible which makes engagements incredibly cost inefficient because of the amount of damage the mines are doing.
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On April 09 2013 22:21 MattD wrote:
can someone explain to me why widow mines don't take attack priority, is this intentional? This is a HUGE problem when they are mixed into an army, when you go to attack your units just ignore the mines and run right past them or on top of them and dont even attack them, they just attack the units behind them. This means to kill them before they go off you have to actually click on them and when there are 10-12 mines this is impossible which makes engagements incredibly cost inefficient because of the amount of damage the mines are doing.
Yeah it's intentional, and was patched in later in the beta. Before it mines couldn't really be used as an aggressive unit, and the drilling claws upgrade was just useless.
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On April 09 2013 21:41 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:32 Big J wrote:On April 09 2013 21:25 Hypemeup wrote:On April 09 2013 20:40 Rossie wrote:On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms. Harass is not supposed to kill the other guy outright. that's not what he said. He said he wants to be able to pick of buildings. Like drops are doing all the time. He also himself said that sometimes oracles can pick of Tlabs. And single drops should never pick off any building, it requires a screwup on the other guys end.
Oracle dps vs a building: 10
1 marauder dps vs a building: 20
1 marine dps vs a building: 10
(yeah armor plays a role in all of those situations... however it doesn't matter for what I'm saying)
If we consider 1-2 oracles being able to picking up a 400health techlab then we should consider 8supply of MM being easily able to pick of a 900health robotics. Or two.
(blablabla about investment costs, difference of races whatever... in the end it turns out that terran drops do pick off buildings very often and oracles don't. No matter whether it requires a screwup or not. It happens a lot)
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On April 09 2013 21:32 TeeTS wrote:
this unit kills marines in a very questionable ratio. What do you want more? Haven't tried it, but is it really cost effective against stimmed marines?
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On April 09 2013 23:27 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:32 TeeTS wrote:
this unit kills marines in a very questionable ratio. What do you want more? Haven't tried it, but is it really cost effective against stimmed marines?
no. It's really strong early on when a Terran invests into an expansion and factory/starport tech and additional barracks and addons and stim and shields and has a very low unit/production count + needs units at the front because he does have no intell against the first stalkers. But in the midgame, the oracle is just way too expensive to stand a chance against marines.
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On April 09 2013 23:41 Big J wrote:
no. It's really strong early on when a Terran invests into an expansion and factory/starport tech and additional barracks and addons and stim and shields and has a very low unit/production count + needs units at the front because he does have no intell against the first stalkers. But in the midgame, the oracle is just way too expensive to stand a chance against marines. And they're still complaining.
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The only balance issues I see right now are-
-maybe mines op v Z BARELY (buff overseers? i don't wanna see the game slow down...)
medivacs & airtoss haven't really dominated any games I've seen. mainly mistakes made by the opponents
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
They complain because it's hard to scout out. You often tend to be stuck in your base and soft-contained with a stalker/MsC for the all-in variants of Oracle-centred play, and it's often proxied which can make scans unreliable.
Based on the information you can gather at those timings, you can't rule out say, an immortal bust, or various other things which require very different responses to heavy oracle play.
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On April 09 2013 23:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
They complain because it's hard to scout out. You often tend to be stuck in your base and soft-contained with a stalker/MsC for the all-in variants of Oracle-centred play, and it's often proxied which can make scans unreliable.
Based on the information you can gather at those timings, you can't rule out say, an immortal bust, or various other things which require very different responses to heavy oracle play. Build a load of bunkers, put your SCVs inside if they have oracles. Salvage if they don't go oracles.
You can have that one for free.
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Northern Ireland25694 Posts
Where are you building these bunkers?
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On April 10 2013 00:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
Where are you building these bunkers? Around mineral line. Come on, don't be pedantic. Stopping oracles is not a serious problem compared with the shit Protoss have had to deal with. It'll probably only be used for revelation a few months into the game.
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EPT
