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Rossie
136 Posts
On April 10 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote: Okay, how about 1 bunker on each base? 4 marines on the ramp between natural and main. If you see oracle, enter whatever bunker is appropriate. Rather than calling them lazy and gold level, why don't you provide some sort of advice beyond "scout better and build bunkers" | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 10 2013 00:02 Rossie wrote: Build a load of bunkers, put your SCVs inside if they have oracles. Salvage if they don't go oracles. You can have that one for free. Surely you're trolling? I mean, this suggestion is so terrible I can't even believe you said it seriously. Are you aware that Bunkers cost not 25, but 100 minerals (which can be later salvaged to get back 75), and that Terrans have, you know, buildings and units to build at this time? On April 10 2013 00:31 Rossie wrote: It doesn't occur to you that gold league Protoss players have been playing to a higher strategic standard than, apparently, Grandmaster Terran players. Scouting a spire and immediately preparing blink, cannons, and even templar archives, was fairly old hat for Protoss. But building some refundable defensive structures is asking too much of Terran players. In your place, I would not hazard myself to mock Terran players considering your understanding of the Terran race is obviously not even Bronze level. So let me, GM Terran with a lower strategic thought than the average Gold Protoss, explain why "a load of Bunkers" isn't the definite answer to everything. Note that I am not at all discussing if such or such thing is balanced; I am merely educating someone in dire need of Terran comprehension. First, download this replay pack. Second, watch Taeja vs Sage, Star Station, from Taeja's point of view. So Taeja blindly built three Bunkers against a proxy 4g Oracles he could possibly have deduced/guessed, but never scouted barring a good amount of luck (as you just can't scout the whole map). Well, all is good then? Sure, but what information did he have to rule out a Blink Stalker all-in which would have easily bypassed his Bunkers at front, and killed him because he hadn't Tanks to protect his main? He had none. All he had seen was a dual gas opening, two Pylons in Sage's main and no expand at 6' (which could still mean 1gS expand). So he had to play rather blindly, as he had no way to know if it would be proxy Oracles, proxy Voids, proxy Immortals, Blink Stalker all-in, 1gS expand, etc. This time, luck was on his side. But had 10 Stalkers appeared in his base at 7'30, he would have been dead because he would have blindly been prepared against the wrong all-in. Moral of the story? SCV scouts are easily denied, a Stalker contain prevents you from sending extra SCVs or Marines around, and Scans are a huge gamble easily denied by proxying/hiding some or all buildings; for a sad/hilarious example, watch Bang vs MC, Atlas, IPTL finals and see how his Scan fails to deliver any kind of valuable information because it misses by literally an inch all interesting buildings except 3g which tells him absolutely nothing, and then it's too late when he realizes it's a Blink Stalker all-in coming. This difficulty in telling apart a myriad of tech builds is nothing new; it already existed in WoL. HotS actually gave an excellent scouting tool with the Reaper, but even the Reaper can't reveal everything (for instance in the Taeja vs Sage game, he could have confirmed for sure something had been proxied, but the Reaper would not have told him what was the "something," so go back to square one). Sometimes ruling out certain things might be enough, sometimes not. But no matter, no matter. This is Terran stuff. Why would you care? Keep thinking Terran players are idiots if it pleases you, but just stop with your terrible uninformed "lol get bunkers nbs". | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 10 2013 01:47 Rossie wrote: Okay, how about 1 bunker on each base? 4 marines on the ramp between natural and main. If you see oracle, enter whatever bunker is appropriate. I really don't think bunkers are going to be that effective at all. If they were, terrans would have built them against mutas long ago. Also, you run the risk of the oracles murdering the marines long before they get to the bunker, because they are fast as hell. Wombat has a better example of having an opening based around the reaper and attempting to fish out what the protoss is doing and respond from there. SC2 is a complex game and you can't just say, "Build this "thingy" and you will be able to deal with that". If it were that easy, someone would have just done it. | ||
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Rossie
136 Posts
On April 10 2013 01:57 Plansix wrote: Not if they're Terran.If it were that easy, someone would have just done it. In WoL they took like a year to figure out how to use ghosts. I remember GM Protoss players were saying "We just build an army and hope you don't realize that ghosts are probably a good idea." | ||
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Rossie
136 Posts
On April 10 2013 01:53 TheDwf wrote: Good fucking grief. It was tongue-in-cheek. See my latest bunker suggestion if you want something more serious.Surely you're trolling? I mean, this suggestion is so terrible I can't even believe you said it seriously. Are you aware that Bunkers cost not 25, but 100 minerals (which can be later salvaged to get back 75), and that Terrans have, you know, buildings and units to build at this time? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:05 Rossie wrote: Not if they're Terran. In WoL they took like a year to figure out how to use ghosts. I remember GM Protoss players were saying "We just build an army and hope you don't realize that ghosts are probably a good idea." All right, you're clearly just hear to insult terran players and call them stupid, rather that provide anything useful. Your suggestions are bad and show that you really don't know how the match up works or the issues people are talking about. Just move on and do something else rather than insult players trying to deal with a powerful all-in. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:05 Rossie wrote: Not if they're Terran. In WoL they took like a year to figure out how to use ghosts. I remember GM Protoss players were saying "We just build an army and hope you don't realize that ghosts are probably a good idea." Yeah, all terran players are slow and incapable of seeking simple solutions. Things such as metagame development do not exist. The worst part is that I'm not even sure if you're trolling. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 09 2013 20:10 Big J wrote: then you haven't played properly with swarmhosts yet. If the opponent just does as much as threaten to pressure them, you better control them properly or you will just lose them for free. They are basically like bio in that regard: If you have enough/the opponent isn't properly prepared --> a move. If the opponent has enough to actually combat them --> you have a fuckton to do to make them work. Yeah of course I agree with you. But I still think it's less buttons to press than let's say: stutter stepping bio, controlling mutalisks, or blink stalkers and whatnot. Those are not necessarily harder to do, they're just more costly APM-wise. I would assume you "just" need good decision-making, tactical thinking and timing to play with SH. Or am I mistaking again and you need to click like a madman everywhere as well? :D And I still think that SH are a bit too "I have enough and I rape everything XOR I don't and they actually don't do shit." | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:11 Bagi wrote: Yeah, all terran players are slow and incapable of seeking simple solutions. Things such as metagame development do not exist. The worst part is that I'm not even sure if you're trolling. If you review his post history, he isn't. His balance discussions seem to vary between calling zergs and Terrans stupid and talking down to anyone who disagrees with him. His most traffic threads are balance threads and in every one I looked at he pretty much pro-protoss and crapping on terran and zerg. The consistency is impressive. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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Rossie
136 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:17 MateShade wrote: Good one.Rossie seems mad that he can't get out of gold league | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:17 MateShade wrote: Rossie seems mad that he can't get out of gold league I doubt he's out of silver, tbqh. | ||
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Rossie
136 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:20 aksfjh wrote: High masters. Who wants a 1 vs 1? I'll off-race.I doubt he's out of silver, tbqh. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:22 Rossie wrote: High masters. Who wants a 1 vs 1? I'll off-race. I don't think anyone wants to 1v1 you. Mostly, people want to you stop calling terran players stupid and posting terrible suggestions in this thread. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
VRs have obvious problems in pvz that I don't think even need to be discussed more. They kill corruptors in efficiency and trade evenly/slightly ahead vs hydras. I think they ought to still counter colossi somehow. Maybe take away the damage bonus vs armored and make it only vs massive and additionally nerf the damage output vs non massive so they can't kill hydras/stalkers so easily. They should have a role in countering BC/Carrier/Broodlords, but they shouldn't be some ridiculous superunit that beats almost everything. SH dps is also way too high. It hasn't really become a problem just because nobody is using them, but in zvp especially these things just eat buildings alive. Locusts have more DPS than hydras and basically forces 2 robo colossi from protoss. Air/Carriers kinda works against it, but hopefully that won't be around much longer. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:39 Drowsy wrote: I think they ought to still counter colossi somehow. Maybe take away the damage bonus vs armored and make it only vs massive and additionally nerf the damage output vs non massive so they can't kill hydras/stalkers so easily. They should have a role in countering BC/Carrier/Broodlords, but they shouldn't be some ridiculous superunit that beats almost everything. Isn't that what the tempest does? | ||
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Rossie
136 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:29 Plansix wrote: Okay. Sorry, Terran players.I don't think anyone wants to 1v1 you. Mostly, people want to you stop calling terran players stupid and posting terrible suggestions in this thread. FWIW, I realize the first bunker suggestion was dumb. The second one wasn't so bad. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:22 Rossie wrote: High masters. Who wants a 1 vs 1? I'll off-race. You should enjoy beating the hell out of a low diamond scrub then. PM me. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM) | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On April 10 2013 02:39 Drowsy wrote: I agree completely with this post and both units discussed. VRs are too good and it's ruining pvp. DT openings/storm strats work, but only in the early and mid game. You're pretty much on a clock if you want to play twilight tech at all. You also have to pray they attack you and not the other way around because storm is way better on defense than on offense when people are smart enough to spread their air units. There's basically no other way to (optimally) play pvp other than just massing out VRs late game. It's an even more 1 dimensional unit than the colossus is and pvp is way less watchable/interesting to play in HOTS than WOL. VRs have obvious problems in pvz that I don't think even need to be discussed more. They kill corruptors in efficiency and trade evenly/slightly ahead vs hydras. I think they ought to still counter colossi somehow. Maybe take away the damage bonus vs armored and make it only vs massive and additionally nerf the damage output vs non massive so they can't kill hydras/stalkers so easily. They should have a role in countering BC/Carrier/Broodlords, but they shouldn't be some ridiculous superunit that beats almost everything. SH dps is also way too high. It hasn't really become a problem just because nobody is using them, but in zvp especially these things just eat buildings alive. Locusts have more DPS than hydras and basically forces 2 robo colossi from protoss. Air/Carriers kinda works against it, but hopefully that won't be around much longer. The voidray has completely ruined PvP. It is either all-in (my choice is DTs, others do stalker pressure, etc.) and win or be forced into voidray-focused compositions, because little else works anymore (it has got to the point where I am seeing people all-in and if it doesn't work they leave). And yeah, in PvZ it is pretty bad at times, though some Zergs are getting better at dealing with them, but it is still too hard compared to how easy they are to mass. And this brings me to the Swarm Host. I have no doubt that if Protoss Air is nerfed (which is probably more of a when than an if when it comes to voidrays), that swarm hosts will become an issue. We are already seeing crazy builds with them that are very difficult to stop (crazy one or two base rushes against forge expands or the very seldom used but incredibly powerful swarmhost/corruptor/overseer build where you go mass overseer with corruptors and actively target down any mobile Protoss detection then starve the Protoss out because they can't move out). I said the same thing about infestors in early 2011 before they were buffed and I get the same feeling from swarmhosts now. They have a huge amount of potential that has yet to be fully utilized. There is also the issue that if Protoss is forced to go back to ground-based compositions it will be quite difficult to win outside of all-ins. With hydras that are actually good, ultras that don't suck (those things devour all protoss ground units outside of immortals and archons), vipers (which render a large portion of Protoss ground useless, not to mention they mess with AI so much), and swarmhosts, the standard Protoss ground compositions will not work. This is partly why I think they may not do as much to air as some people are calling for. | ||
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