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On April 10 2013 07:31 DARKHYDRA wrote:
I just like how some terran players pretend that marine splitting is the holy grail of micro lol. There are plenty of micro challenges in all races like zvz baneling battles or blink micro.
Well, it's apparently difficult enough to create a huge divide between the KR and foreigner terrans.
The situations you describe are more specific to certain tactics or early game situations, whereas marine control is something that's crucial in every match-up and every part of the game (since mech continues to suck) and truly separates the good terrans from the bad ones. I have no qualms in saying that yes, it is the "holy grail of micro" what comes to SC2.
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On April 10 2013 07:44 iky43210 wrote:Stephano can't adapt, so he resorts to the same tactic he have been using for eons and wonders why he is failing in the current ever changing meta. Muta is popular? better not make them. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:34 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 10 2013 05:56 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2013 05:07 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 10 2013 03:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just want blizzard to hurry the fuck up and patch the damn game already.
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM) I had a feeling that I was going to win the first match no matter what since it was a TvZ but TvP was so difficult during practice that I just told myself to go for third place. I agree with Yoda about TvZ but I didn't know any Terrans were having problems vs Toss. Seriously though TvZ is getting a little ridiculous. It feels like I haven't seen a Zerg win one in forever. Some races are harder for ppl. I feel confident about TvZ but I cannot handle toss for life of me. Its probably the other way for MKP. He have the sickest TvP winrates Also roro + life comes to mind. There is also 2 zergs that all killed GSTL, and zerg do tends to beat terran in proleagues but lose horribly to toss. You just have to not watch foreign zergs streams
Stephano opens muta almost every game vs T.. To accuse him of not trying new things is fascinatingly ignorant.
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On April 10 2013 07:17 Bagi wrote:
Marines vs banes[...]You don't need to remind terran players about imbalanced micro requirements.
Well, you do use tanks to reduce the amount of micro needed in this scenario. I don't think that there's a readily available equivalent answer for widow mines.
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On April 10 2013 07:54 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:44 iky43210 wrote:Stephano can't adapt, so he resorts to the same tactic he have been using for eons and wonders why he is failing in the current ever changing meta. Muta is popular? better not make them. On April 10 2013 07:34 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 10 2013 05:56 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2013 05:07 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 10 2013 03:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just want blizzard to hurry the fuck up and patch the damn game already.
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM) I had a feeling that I was going to win the first match no matter what since it was a TvZ but TvP was so difficult during practice that I just told myself to go for third place. I agree with Yoda about TvZ but I didn't know any Terrans were having problems vs Toss. Seriously though TvZ is getting a little ridiculous. It feels like I haven't seen a Zerg win one in forever. Some races are harder for ppl. I feel confident about TvZ but I cannot handle toss for life of me. Its probably the other way for MKP. He have the sickest TvP winrates Also roro + life comes to mind. There is also 2 zergs that all killed GSTL, and zerg do tends to beat terran in proleagues but lose horribly to toss. You just have to not watch foreign zergs streams Stephano opens muta almost every game vs T.. To accuse him of not trying new things is fascinatingly ignorant.
must be a very recent thing then. I've watched his streams on multiple occasion never spotting a single muta, but for some reason he goes mostly lings and occasionally roach hydras against bio
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On April 10 2013 08:00 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:54 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2013 07:44 iky43210 wrote:Stephano can't adapt, so he resorts to the same tactic he have been using for eons and wonders why he is failing in the current ever changing meta. Muta is popular? better not make them. On April 10 2013 07:34 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 10 2013 05:56 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2013 05:07 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 10 2013 03:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just want blizzard to hurry the fuck up and patch the damn game already.
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM) I had a feeling that I was going to win the first match no matter what since it was a TvZ but TvP was so difficult during practice that I just told myself to go for third place. I agree with Yoda about TvZ but I didn't know any Terrans were having problems vs Toss. Seriously though TvZ is getting a little ridiculous. It feels like I haven't seen a Zerg win one in forever. Some races are harder for ppl. I feel confident about TvZ but I cannot handle toss for life of me. Its probably the other way for MKP. He have the sickest TvP winrates Also roro + life comes to mind. There is also 2 zergs that all killed GSTL, and zerg do tends to beat terran in proleagues but lose horribly to toss. You just have to not watch foreign zergs streams Stephano opens muta almost every game vs T.. To accuse him of not trying new things is fascinatingly ignorant. must be a very recent thing then. I've watched his streams on multiple occasion never spotting a single muta, but for some reason he goes mostly lings and occasionally roach hydras against bio
Ah, okay. Just bad timing when watching him. He started out trying for hydra-ultra, but drops make everything other than mutas very hard to pull off. He's actually doing pretty well against T, but of course his opponents are often less than stellar on US.
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Just theorycrafting, but it should be difficult to micro as some people suggest against widowmines in a mid-game terran army composition, and impossible late-game. This is because any decent terran using them in pushes will protect them with his bio.
Sending in single or small groups of zerglings to detonate mines is cute and all but it doesn't work if marines and/or marauders screen them out. By this point if the zerg player wants to halt or stop the push he has no choice but to fully engage and take those hits. Of course if he's good enough he should micro to make the bio eat as much friendly-fire splash damage as possible, and engage in a spread out arc with pre-split banelings coming in behind the lings.
More viable is flining a few infested marines into the midst of the bio defending and hope the mine(s) friendly fire before the infested marines go down. This doesn't work however if the bio dps is too high, and leaves the zerg player with less energy to fungal and ensnare the terran army on the mines.
I think the best strategy in the mid-game is to rely on ling/bling/muta harassment of economy, production and any carelessly isolated units to delay or prevent a strong push from the terran, allowing the zerg player to get ahead on bases and eventually tech to infestors and vipers which can lock down and disarm the bio army on top of the mines, ready to be surrounded and friendly-fire splashed by the mines.
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On April 10 2013 09:25 Giriath wrote:
Just theorycrafting, but it should be difficult to micro as some people suggest against widowmines in a mid-game terran army composition, and impossible late-game. This is because any decent terran using them in pushes will protect them with his bio.
Sending in single or small groups of zerglings to detonate mines is cute and all but it doesn't when work if marines and/or marauders screen them out.
More viable is flining a few infested marines into the midst of the bio defending and hope the mine(s) friendly fire before the infested marines go down. This doesn't work however if the bio dps is too high, and leaves the zerg player with less energy to fungal and entrap the terran army on the mines.
I think the best strategy in the mid-game is to rely on ling/bling/muta harassment of economy, production and any carelessly isolated units to delay or prevent a strong push from the terran, allowing the zerg player to get ahead and bases and eventually tech to infestors and vipers which can lock down and disarm the bio army on top of the mines, ready to be surrounded and friendly-fire splashed by the mines.
I like the idea, but it really depends on a "perfect world" scenario where you hit a big fungal, then use blinding cloud and finally rally in lings while continually fungaling (?) to keep the bio in place. We don't really see very many good/great fungals to begin with at the moment, the extra layers of complexity makes it even less likely to happen. It's an epic scenario, but I think the grittiness of in-action might make the fungal->mass ultra (+ling/bling/muta) chomp a more "practical" solution.
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This is exactly the line of thinking that I find funny.
On April 10 2013 07:50 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:31 DARKHYDRA wrote:
I just like how some terran players pretend that marine splitting is the holy grail of micro lol. There are plenty of micro challenges in all races like zvz baneling battles or blink micro. Well, it's apparently difficult enough to create a huge divide between the KR and foreigner terrans. The situationsuations you describe are more specific to certain tactics or early game situations, whereas marine control is something that's crucial in every match-up and every part of the game (sinceontinues to suck) and truly separates the good terrans from the bad ones. I have no qualms in saying that yes, it is the "holy grail of micro" what comes to SC2.
I just want to point out that you were also talking about a very specific scenario of splitting marines vs banelings.
But anyway, here you make the claim that unit control, aside from specific scenarios, tactics or timings, is not as micro intensive for other units as it is for marine control. That's just terran bias, there are many cases where marines are the easier units to control in engagements. Its a completely laughable position to take.
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On April 10 2013 09:43 Emzeeshady wrote:
Yah, I just checked through the stats and TvZ is 5-0 for Terrans in Pro league so 100% win rate...
Protoss was also by far the best race in WoL proleague. How often did Protoss look strong in the gsl during that time....
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On April 10 2013 09:37 DARKHYDRA wrote:This is exactly the line of thinking that I find funny. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:50 Bagi wrote:On April 10 2013 07:31 DARKHYDRA wrote:
I just like how some terran players pretend that marine splitting is the holy grail of micro lol. There are plenty of micro challenges in all races like zvz baneling battles or blink micro. Well, it's apparently difficult enough to create a huge divide between the KR and foreigner terrans. The situationsuations you describe are more specific to certain tactics or early game situations, whereas marine control is something that's crucial in every match-up and every part of the game (sinceontinues to suck) and truly separates the good terrans from the bad ones. I have no qualms in saying that yes, it is the "holy grail of micro" what comes to SC2. I just want to point out that you were also talking about a very specific scenario of splitting marines vs banelings. But anyway, here you make the claim that unit control, aside from specific scenarios, tactics or timings, is not as micro intensive for other units as it is for marine control. That's just terran bias, there are many cases where marines are the easier units to control in engagements. Its a completely laughable position to take.
There's also the case of splitting versus tanks, colossus, and storms. It's not just banelings, although that's probably the best example.
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On April 10 2013 12:23 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 11:40 MateShade wrote:On April 10 2013 09:43 Emzeeshady wrote:
Yah, I just checked through the stats and TvZ is 5-0 for Terrans in Pro league so 100% win rate... Protoss was also by far the best race in WoL proleague. How often did Protoss look strong in the gsl during that time.... So does that mean ESF Protosses are just bad?
Kespa players were trying to qualify for gsl as well...
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On April 10 2013 08:00 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:17 Bagi wrote:
Marines vs banes[...]You don't need to remind terran players about imbalanced micro requirements. Well, you do use tanks to reduce the amount of micro needed in this scenario. I don't think that there's a readily available equivalent answer for widow mines.
Killing 3 Banelings with one tank shot isnt really worth it and investing in tons of tanks makes you more vulnerable to runbys, so its a lose-lose position for the Terran.
You do realize that Siege Tanks deal friendly fire splash damage and thus hurt the Terran himself probably just as much as they do the enemy?
You do realize that even though the Siege Tank has a splash radius of "1.25 matrices" but that they only deal full damage in the very small center or 0.4687 matrices?
You do realize that the Baneling splash radius is 2.2 (no "unit" given in the Liquipedia) and thus possibly larger than the one of the tank?
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On April 10 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 09:37 DARKHYDRA wrote:This is exactly the line of thinking that I find funny. On April 10 2013 07:50 Bagi wrote:On April 10 2013 07:31 DARKHYDRA wrote:
I just like how some terran players pretend that marine splitting is the holy grail of micro lol. There are plenty of micro challenges in all races like zvz baneling battles or blink micro. Well, it's apparently difficult enough to create a huge divide between the KR and foreigner terrans. The situationsuations you describe are more specific to certain tactics or early game situations, whereas marine control is something that's crucial in every match-up and every part of the game (sinceontinues to suck) and truly separates the good terrans from the bad ones. I have no qualms in saying that yes, it is the "holy grail of micro" what comes to SC2. I just want to point out that you were also talking about a very specific scenario of splitting marines vs banelings. But anyway, here you make the claim that unit control, aside from specific scenarios, tactics or timings, is not as micro intensive for other units as it is for marine control. That's just terran bias, there are many cases where marines are the easier units to control in engagements. Its a completely laughable position to take. There's also the case of splitting versus tanks, colossus, and storms. It's not just banelings, although that's probably the best example.
I was not saying that marines only need micro against banelings.
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On April 10 2013 09:37 DARKHYDRA wrote:This is exactly the line of thinking that I find funny. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 07:50 Bagi wrote:On April 10 2013 07:31 DARKHYDRA wrote:
I just like how some terran players pretend that marine splitting is the holy grail of micro lol. There are plenty of micro challenges in all races like zvz baneling battles or blink micro. Well, it's apparently difficult enough to create a huge divide between the KR and foreigner terrans. The situationsuations you describe are more specific to certain tactics or early game situations, whereas marine control is something that's crucial in every match-up and every part of the game (sinceontinues to suck) and truly separates the good terrans from the bad ones. I have no qualms in saying that yes, it is the "holy grail of micro" what comes to SC2. I just want to point out that you were also talking about a very specific scenario of splitting marines vs banelings. But anyway, here you make the claim that unit control, aside from specific scenarios, tactics or timings, is not as micro intensive for other units as it is for marine control. That's just terran bias, there are many cases where marines are the easier units to control in engagements. Its a completely laughable position to take.
As much as you would like it, no, Zerg is not the micro race, sorry...
Edit: Though I would like to play some Zerg micro challenges. Probably something called "Catch more than 1 unit with a WoL fungal", or "Brood Lord stutter step madness".
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But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol.
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EPT
