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On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol.
My God, we have a genius here. Single handedly debunked all false heresy that Terran is the harder race to play.
Or maybe...
Terrans are punished more severely when they fail to micro properly. Everypony, including the pro-players, make micro mistakes from time to time. When the Terran player makes a micro mistake, it is a much bigger deal than if Zergs or Protoss players make a mistake.
Zergs have immense mobility and map-control. They are less likely to get unaware and make micro mistakes. They can pull back immediately without having to commit.
Protoss units are big, bulky, except zealots - which are extremely tanky. So the damage of mistake in micro'ing against aoe is automatically reduced by default. With mothership core, protoss can also pull back immedialy without having to commit.
Terrans have drops that force out mistakes. But for the main army (unless they're doom-dropped via medivac) there is no real way of quickly retreating in a bad engagement. Is your main army engaged? Then here is your mobility - Seige tanks, immobile. Widow mines, immobile.
TLDR: Generally speaking, Terran mistakes with micro are less forgiving than Zerg or Protoss mistakes.
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On April 10 2013 15:24 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. My God, we have a genius here. Single handedly debunked all false heresy that Terran is the harder race to play. Or maybe... Terrans are punished more severely when they fail to micro properly. Everypony, including the pro-players, make micro mistakes from time to time. When the Terran player makes a micro mistake, it is a much bigger deal than if Zergs or Protoss players make a mistake. Zergs have immense mobility and map-control. They are less likely to get unaware and make micro mistakes. They can pull back immediately without having to commit. Protoss units are big, bulky, except zealots - which are extremely tanky. So the damage of mistake in micro'ing against aoe is automatically reduced by default. With mothership core, protoss can also pull back immedialy without having to commit. Terrans have drops that force out mistakes. But for the main army (unless they're doom-dropped via medivac) there is no real way of quickly retreating in a bad engagement. Is your main army engaged? Then here is your mobility - Seige tanks, immobile. Widow mines, immobile. TLDR: Generally speaking, Terran mistakes with micro are less forgiving than Zerg or Protoss mistakes.
not really.
Protoss cannot retreat from a bad engagement because of stim bio. I don't think I have seen any high level games where the protoss just recall against a terran bio after a bad start like a emp landed on the HTs
Zerg broodlord deathball also cannot just pull back or you risk losing your broodlords and infestors which almost means instant gg.
The biggest difference between a korean terran and a foreign terran isn't micro, it's the decision making and mechanics to pull off even more cost efficient trades.
MVP, taeja and bomber don't have best micro (especially bomber imo, his split against banelings is pretty poor compared to others) but they are top terrans because of how solid they are overall.
it's shown even more clearly in korean vs foreign TvTs
koreans are just so much better at army position, movement and decision making.
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On April 10 2013 15:24 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. My God, we have a genius here. Single handedly debunked all false heresy that Terran is the harder race to play. Or maybe... Terrans are punished more severely when they fail to micro properly. Everypony, including the pro-players, make micro mistakes from time to time. When the Terran player makes a micro mistake, it is a much bigger deal than if Zergs or Protoss players make a mistake. Zergs have immense mobility and map-control. They are less likely to get unaware and make micro mistakes. They can pull back immediately without having to commit. Protoss units are big, bulky, except zealots - which are extremely tanky. So the damage of mistake in micro'ing against aoe is automatically reduced by default. With mothership core, protoss can also pull back immedialy without having to commit. Terrans have drops that force out mistakes. But for the main army (unless they're doom-dropped via medivac) there is no real way of quickly retreating in a bad engagement. Is your main army engaged? Then here is your mobility - Seige tanks, immobile. Widow mines, immobile. TLDR: Generally speaking, Terran mistakes with micro are less forgiving than Zerg or Protoss mistakes.
And with this piece of excellent terran bias I rest my case. ggwp.
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On April 10 2013 16:06 DARKHYDRA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 15:24 plogamer wrote:On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. My God, we have a genius here. Single handedly debunked all false heresy that Terran is the harder race to play. Or maybe... Terrans are punished more severely when they fail to micro properly. Everypony, including the pro-players, make micro mistakes from time to time. When the Terran player makes a micro mistake, it is a much bigger deal than if Zergs or Protoss players make a mistake. Zergs have immense mobility and map-control. They are less likely to get unaware and make micro mistakes. They can pull back immediately without having to commit. Protoss units are big, bulky, except zealots - which are extremely tanky. So the damage of mistake in micro'ing against aoe is automatically reduced by default. With mothership core, protoss can also pull back immedialy without having to commit. Terrans have drops that force out mistakes. But for the main army (unless they're doom-dropped via medivac) there is no real way of quickly retreating in a bad engagement. Is your main army engaged? Then here is your mobility - Seige tanks, immobile. Widow mines, immobile. TLDR: Generally speaking, Terran mistakes with micro are less forgiving than Zerg or Protoss mistakes. And with this piece of excellent terran bias I rest my case. ggwp.
It is only "stupid bias" if you prove that he is wrong. Since you dont bother disputing his claims your post is the biased one.
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Just putting in my observations after watching the 2 GSL groups so far. I'm a protoss player, but I'll try to be as unbiased as possible. I won't comment on mirror match ups.
1. Zerg players cannot play like zerg players against Terran without being scared/punished, The widow mine makes it so that unless your paying extremely close attention to detail, and I mean extremely careful. Then you will always get screwed by mines in the mid-late game. The widow mines are so deadly and unforgiving that it makes moving lings/banes/mutas around really hard. I'm going to say this is actually much harder than splitting marines against banes because you actually see the banes and have time to react. Whereas the mines simply blow you up unless you have an overseer everywhere. This along with the new medivacs makes TvZ a living nightmare for zergs. I mean I watched that game on Stephano's stream where qxc only made mines and beat him convincingly.
2. Z has trouble against late game protoss if they get a certain doom composition, but this doom composition isn't easy to get to and full proof. It's no where near the level of ridiculous as infestor BL and Zerg does have opportunities to win. Zerg are powerful in the mid game.
3. P cannot counter mass mutas with anything else except phoenix's. Storms/cannons are simply not viable to deal with mass mutalisk harass since they heal too fast. Game 3 of DRG vs flying shows this.
4. PvT is still very much the same and no builds are dominating every other build. ie. no full proof build that is good against everything.
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On April 10 2013 16:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 16:06 DARKHYDRA wrote:On April 10 2013 15:24 plogamer wrote:On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. My God, we have a genius here. Single handedly debunked all false heresy that Terran is the harder race to play. Or maybe... Terrans are punished more severely when they fail to micro properly. Everypony, including the pro-players, make micro mistakes from time to time. When the Terran player makes a micro mistake, it is a much bigger deal than if Zergs or Protoss players make a mistake. Zergs have immense mobility and map-control. They are less likely to get unaware and make micro mistakes. They can pull back immediately without having to commit. Protoss units are big, bulky, except zealots - which are extremely tanky. So the damage of mistake in micro'ing against aoe is automatically reduced by default. With mothership core, protoss can also pull back immedialy without having to commit. Terrans have drops that force out mistakes. But for the main army (unless they're doom-dropped via medivac) there is no real way of quickly retreating in a bad engagement. Is your main army engaged? Then here is your mobility - Seige tanks, immobile. Widow mines, immobile. TLDR: Generally speaking, Terran mistakes with micro are less forgiving than Zerg or Protoss mistakes. And with this piece of excellent terran bias I rest my case. ggwp. It is only "stupid bias" if you prove that he is wrong. Since you dont bother disputing his claims your post is the biased one.
The burden of proof is not on him, but on the guy who makes the claims.
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On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol.
Terran is both more punished and more rewarded for bad and good micro respectively than the other two races. It's not harder in the sense that the micro is more difficult, but it is more punishing if you get it horribly wrong, and far, far more rewarding if you get it right.
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On April 10 2013 16:35 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. Terran is both more punished and more rewarded for bad and good micro respectively than the other two races. It's not harder in the sense that the micro is more difficult, but it is more punishing if you get it horribly wrong, and far, far more rewarding if you get it right.
yeah, no... this is not Code S open seasons 2 anymore with the only known micro being marine splitting. This is 2012/2013 HotS where we see Life countering hellions with zergling micro, Protoss stutterstepping zealots, zergs trying to pick off/trigger widow mines with few forces etc etc etc.
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However what he said wasn't that the other races don't have anything to micro, but that the effect of micro mistakes is alot larger for terran (and the benefits for good micro also).
For example blink micro of toss. It really increases your combat power, no doubt about it. But if you don't do it it isn't an autoloss, While if you get a single storm full on your bio army you literally lose half your army.
Or lets compare vs zerg. You got a terran and a toss army, and you don't have detection + you walk over burrowed banelings. I think that quite clearly compares the weaknesses to AOE of toss and terran armies. Other case with zerg opponent. You are happily moving with your army around and not paying attention for a second before you walk up a ramp. There were a few infestors there, who is more screwed?
Of course if your micro is good enough there is also the other side of the coin, where you can counter banelings with marines. However only very few people are capable of that.
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On April 10 2013 16:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 16:35 Fencar wrote:On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. Terran is both more punished and more rewarded for bad and good micro respectively than the other two races. It's not harder in the sense that the micro is more difficult, but it is more punishing if you get it horribly wrong, and far, far more rewarding if you get it right. yeah, no... this is not Code S open seasons 2 anymore with the only known micro being marine splitting. This is 2012/2013 HotS where we see Life countering hellions with zergling micro, Protoss stutterstepping zealots, zergs trying to pick off/trigger widow mines with few forces etc etc etc.
And this is not the end of WoL anymore, where Zerg literally didn't have to micro anything. Zerg kinda has to micro now, thank god.
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On April 10 2013 16:59 Sissors wrote:
However what he said wasn't that the other races don't have anything to micro, but that the effect of micro mistakes is alot larger for terran (and the benefits for good micro also).
For example blink micro of toss. It really increases your combat power, no doubt about it. But if you don't do it it isn't an autoloss, While if you get a single storm full on your bio army you literally lose half your army.
Or lets compare vs zerg. You got a terran and a toss army, and you don't have detection + you walk over burrowed banelings. I think that quite clearly compares the weaknesses to AOE of toss and terran armies. Other case with zerg opponent. You are happily moving with your army around and not paying attention for a second before you walk up a ramp. There were a few infestors there, who is more screwed?
Of course if your micro is good enough there is also the other side of the coin, where you can counter banelings with marines. However only very few people are capable of that.
If you amove your banelings just once in a biomech army, all of them are going to explode on tanks, marauders, thors. If you amove your mutalisks once into marines or mines you lose all of them. If you amove with infestors... they don't even attack. If you amove your Ultras they will just block each other. Any uncoordinated army with zerglings in it just dies if you don't run in properly positioned, as the zerglings will all die first, then the rest appears to the party.
Protoss always blink micros, unless they need the blink for stuff like viking sniping.
Protoss without good templar positioning just loses to EMPs, Snipes. Colossi become easy targets when amoved. In many early game scenarios Protoss just loses without proper forcefielding. One small misspositioning of a handful of stalkers and instead of stopping a drop they become an invitation for the Terran to get extremly ahead by killing them and getting the drop done.
All of those races have such situations against Terran themselves. And I'm not even talking about stuff like hellions vs minerallines which is an instantloss if you make one mistake (if you don't know what I'm talking about, watch Code S from yesterday; or Bogus vs Stephano from last season; or Life vs Mvp Code S season 3 finals from last year)
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I wanna discuss something else outside these talks of what race suffer more from mistakes.
Widow mines:
Is it good that Tank is almost completely replaced by widow mines in TvZ?
As a viewer, I find it very fun to watch since it's more fast paced and whether the mine lands a money hit is quite exciting.
but I also miss the slow paced tank marine push.
I was hoping for a new viable style other than marine medivac tank and mech and occasional pure bio.
As a diamond T/Z player, I have come to love and hate the mines.
From a zerg perspective, I miss that tank pressure where you have to find ways to break that contain, cut off reinforcement etc.
against mines, it is purely sending some lings in and then try to break it by sending everything and hope the mines don't land a money hit. It doesn't have that slow to break contain type of excitement: flanking, cutting off supply, slowing down a push, counter attacking etc.
the ability to one shot larva and eggs (I think it does one shot egg) is actually quite game breaking in some points, I am not sure if that's intentional or not.
From a Terran perspective, I feel mines have lots of potential in many areas, offensively and defensively. The more clumped up, the more supply efficient the mines are gonna be. reinforcement path, potential new base, widow mines drop etc are just some ways the mines are getting explored.
Setting up mines however is a lot less positional in a bio mine push compared to bio tank. The way the push works feel very brute force and lacking that slow methodological tank push.
Oracle:
I don't think blizzard wanted oracle to be a niche unit like the DT. but it's no wonder that oracle is only used for worker harassment, given the cost of investment and relatively easy to fend off once scouted.
The rest of the spells are neglected and provide little utility/incentive to build them for mid game purposes. Meaning those spells are only used if oracle somehow survives and cannot do any worker harass due to spore/cannon/missile turrets.
I was thinking would it be good if oracle has a better supportive role in mid game and less of an early worker harassment unit.
What if oracle cost is reduced, kills workers slower but its spells provide more utility for mid to late game (bring back phrase shield?)
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I think Blizzard still needs to wait a while and see before they patch. There will probably be tweaks to the WM, but I think it would be good to wait for more really high level games so that when they patch it they do it in a good way.
I like the unit tbh and when talking about the micro aspect of it I like that it forces Zergs to micro more against Terran than in WoL. All in all though I'd just really like to see Blizzard find a way to make mech work.
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On April 10 2013 17:49 ETisME wrote:
I wanna discuss something else outside these talks of what race suffer more from mistakes.
Widow mines:
Is it good that Tank is almost completely replaced by widow mines in TvZ?
As a viewer, I find it very fun to watch since it's more fast paced and whether the mine lands a money hit is quite exciting.
but I also miss the slow paced tank marine push.
I was hoping for a new viable style other than marine medivac tank and mech and occasional pure bio.
As a diamond T/Z player, I have come to love and hate the mines.
From a zerg perspective, I miss that tank pressure where you have to find ways to break that contain, cut off reinforcement etc.
against mines, it is purely sending some lings in and then try to break it by sending everything and hope the mines don't land a money hit. It doesn't have that slow to break contain type of excitement: flanking, cutting off supply, slowing down a push, counter attacking etc.
the ability to one shot larva and eggs (I think it does one shot egg) is actually quite game breaking in some points, I am not sure if that's intentional or not.
From a Terran perspective, I feel mines have lots of potential in many areas, offensively and defensively. The more clumped up, the more supply efficient the mines are gonna be. reinforcement path, potential new base, widow mines drop etc are just some ways the mines are getting explored.
Setting up mines however is a lot less positional in a bio mine push compared to bio tank. The way the push works feel very brute force and lacking that slow methodological tank push.
I think it's less the mineplay that replaces the tank - as I think marine/tank or marine/tank/mine is just stronger per supply than marine/mine, especially when facing infestors in the later stages of the game, but also against baneling busts - but I believe that even few tanks can be countered by even fewer vipers.
I think there have been a few highlevel TvZs with tanks instead of mines, or both. And the tanks usually just get clouded and suddenly the terran doesn't have anything left, so transitioning into (some of) them from the lower tech, cheaper, macro-buildfriendlier (less gasheavy, reactored) mines never really happens.
Also the metagame=mutaplay - which seems to be the only way to play the matchup against drops right now - delays any form of tank play even further to the point where Terrans won't transition into it ever.
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On April 10 2013 16:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 16:35 Fencar wrote:On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. Terran is both more punished and more rewarded for bad and good micro respectively than the other two races. It's not harder in the sense that the micro is more difficult, but it is more punishing if you get it horribly wrong, and far, far more rewarding if you get it right. yeah, no... this is not Code S open seasons 2 anymore with the only known micro being marine splitting. This is 2012/2013 HotS where we see Life countering hellions with zergling micro, Protoss stutterstepping zealots, zergs trying to pick off/trigger widow mines with few forces etc etc etc.
But if Terran runs around with a clumped up MMMM ball they still die to Ling/Bane even if they still get the mines burrowed, since all the mines fire on the zerglings in the front, doing almost as much damage to allied units as to enemy units.
Note: I'm mainly talking about big engagements, not single widow mines or hellions vs lings. Also, Hellions vs Lings requires the Terran to kite with the Hellions, and that can still be screwed up ending with the surround of Zerglings around the Hellions. Also remember I'm not talking about difficulty; just what happens when one or neither side micros, and when both sides micro really well.
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On April 10 2013 18:59 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 16:41 Big J wrote:On April 10 2013 16:35 Fencar wrote:On April 10 2013 14:40 DARKHYDRA wrote:
But saying Terran is implies that it is vastly more micro intensive than the other two races. When the only examples that terran players point out is splitting units vs aoe and stutter step that's silly because all 3 races do that. That was my point.
I also did not say zerg was the micro race lol. Terran is both more punished and more rewarded for bad and good micro respectively than the other two races. It's not harder in the sense that the micro is more difficult, but it is more punishing if you get it horribly wrong, and far, far more rewarding if you get it right. yeah, no... this is not Code S open seasons 2 anymore with the only known micro being marine splitting. This is 2012/2013 HotS where we see Life countering hellions with zergling micro, Protoss stutterstepping zealots, zergs trying to pick off/trigger widow mines with few forces etc etc etc. But if Terran runs around with a clumped up MMMM ball they still die to Ling/Bane even if they still get the mines burrowed, since all the mines fire on the zerglings in the front, doing almost as much damage to allied units as to enemy units. Note: I'm mainly talking about big engagements, not single widow mines or hellions vs lings. Also, Hellions vs Lings requires the Terran to kite with the Hellions, and that can still be screwed up ending with the surround of Zerglings around the Hellions. Also remember I'm not talking about difficulty; just what happens when one or neither side micros, and when both sides micro really well.
that doesn't make sense, because it's impossible to not micro at all. a-move in itself is micro. Waiting for the blings to catch up to the lings is micro. Burrowing the mines is micro.
Basically what you say is if Zerg has all it's units in an unnatural formation achieved by micro "ling/bling ball" instead of lings far in front of blings and terran just sits there he loses.
Yeah. But if Terran just burrows the mines, double clicks a marine and clicks a little to the back he wins because the mines kill most of the zerglings and the banelings crash into the marauders.
Same goes for sieged tanks + marines vs ling/bling/muta. If zerg only does the little micro to get his units somewhat synchron into the combat and terran just positions not superbadly but with sieged tanks and marines behind the tanks, terran wins again in the amove battle.
and that's stuff every bronze player is capable of doing.
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Master P speaking:
I found : T so up especially with mine and boost medival.
P : Voidray little up and oracle seems fine but could be redifined.
Z : Overall fine: maybe hydras too quick and strong.
For me the big issue for Z is the tech swich too easy.
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I feel like widow mines are a little too cheap or powerful right now. Or perhaps just too quick to get. I'm a high diam random player(yeah yeah, I know my opinion doesnt count) but from seeing the various TvX match-ups mines just seem to hard counter so much, especially early aggression. For example, if you 4-gate a terran player he can already have 2 mines heading to your base in a medvac AND mines+bunker at home to easily defend since mines one-shot gate units. The same goes for any early zerg aggression. They just seem too "easy" to me.
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I'm plat Random (previous high Plat Zerg), and the bane of my life are currently:
- mutas in PvZ
- widow mines/medivacs in ZvT
- skytoss in ZvP
I've read guides, I've practiced counters, but in this lower-to-mid league place where I am it just feels all those things are much more user-friendly for the attacker than for the defender, especially considering that they have no true counters which aren't both soft AND rather micro-intensive. I know pros can deal with those things, but where I stand they kinda suck the fun out of the game - if I don't make mistakes in a game, and I read my opponent correctly, it's rather disheartening to realize I'm simply out of viable options to do anything but lose.
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I want to talk about corruptors; I think they need a look at for all match-ups.
In TvP they are totally redundant to both phoenix (range and speed) and voidrays (dps...and yet VR can attack ground too). To do sufficient dps to take down colossi you need a big number of them to outlast even just stalker dps (don't even try it vs voidrays), at the cost of ground army supply.
In ZvT they are inferior to vikings (range) and get owned by HSM.
In ZvZ they are inferior to muta (glaive worm 'splash', speed...and yet muta can attack ground too).
They're slow and have poor dps—the only good thing about them is their hp, which only makes them die slower to what they either can't reach or compete with in dps.
This all adds up to arguably make them to most useless and boring unit in SC2, and if you're ever forced to make them you've probably already lost, unless you're low-tier ladder and playing bad opponents. Or if you make them and win you had probably already won the game, or your opponent was bad.
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EPT
