|
On April 10 2013 02:13 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 20:10 Big J wrote:On April 09 2013 18:32 ZenithM wrote:On April 09 2013 18:02 Hypemeup wrote:On April 09 2013 17:52 Nekovivie wrote:
I just hope they take a closer look at the widow mine, instead of leaving it for almost a year like they did with WoL infestors.
It's five times as difficult to counter mines as it is to use them. I think that is the point, terran gets an easy to use-Hard to deal with unit to bring the other races up to Terrans micro requirements. I noticed a pattern in the new units overall for that. Terran got very easy to use units/abilities while Zerg and Protoss got units that require thought to properly use. I think it was to fix the fact that terran had way more requirements with their lategame army compared to Z/P. That actually isn't quite 100% right. Terran indeed got the hellbat, an A-move friendly unit, while Protoss got Oracle and Zerg got Vipers which are quite micro intensive. However, all races got static/positional units that don't require many APMs to use (mine, tempest, swarmhosts). I'm sure mines will take a lot of positional skill anyway once Blizzard gives them a taste of their nerfhammer :D then you haven't played properly with swarmhosts yet. If the opponent just does as much as threaten to pressure them, you better control them properly or you will just lose them for free. They are basically like bio in that regard: If you have enough/the opponent isn't properly prepared --> a move. If the opponent has enough to actually combat them --> you have a fuckton to do to make them work. Yeah of course I agree with you. But I still think it's less buttons to press than let's say: stutter stepping bio, controlling mutalisks, or blink stalkers and whatnot. Those are not necessarily harder to do, they're just more costly APM-wise. I would assume you "just" need good decision-making, tactical thinking and timing to play with SH. Or am I mistaking again and you need to click like a madman everywhere as well? :D And I still think that SH are a bit too "I have enough and I rape everything XOR I don't and they actually don't do shit."
Hm, well, they don't require a lot of spamlike micro like fast moving units. But e.g. when you spawn locusts and want to unburrow quickly or even more burrow-->spawn-->unburrow there are many things you have to do right. Like the locusts block the hosts movement (and sometimes you really don't want to "just wait 2seconds longer") or the constant annoyance the is rally point setting and sending spawns that haven't used the rally point, because the rally command is taken when the animation begins, not when the unit starts etc.
But yeah, I definatly agree that it is a lot different. Which I believe is a good thing. Many units with unique micro requirements is what makes the game mechanically challenging without stupid "just make stuff stupid" - limitations.
For the "rape everything if you have enough". I definatly think that there are a few situations where this is possible, due to bad opponents preparation. Else I'd rather say the swarm host hardly ever has looked like a massable unit. (yeah, you need a certain amount for them to work, but there is also kind of an upper limit - due to the great design, kudos blizzard to the 2range locusts and splash vulnerability of them - when more of them doesn't benefit you anymore and you want/need other stuff.
|
And this brings me to the Swarm Host. I have no doubt that if Protoss Air is nerfed (which is probably more of a when than an if when it comes to voidrays), that swarm hosts will become an issue. We are already seeing crazy builds with them that are very difficult to stop (crazy one or two base rushes against forge expands or the very seldom used but incredibly powerful swarmhost/corruptor/overseer build where you go mass overseer with corruptors and actively target down any mobile Protoss detection then starve the Protoss out because they can't move out). I said the same thing about infestors in early 2011 before they were buffed and I get the same feeling from swarmhosts now. They have a huge amount of potential that has yet to be fully utilized.
Zerg player here.
I'm very unhappy with the SH in general. I find it to be a very clunky, cumbersome, poorly designed unit for a variety of reasons. It's also pretty strong in very limited situations (mostly against Protoss, and okay against Terran mech).
It's definitely not a siege unit - it's best used in a control group to just move around the map, burrow, poop out some locusts and keep going.
What I wanted out of HoTS was a unit that had the impact of the Lurker when it was added to BW. Something that can be used in drops, something that has a similar impact to an unscouted DT rush, and most of all something that was immediately adoptable into the Zerg army with a clear usefulness and role. I don't think the SH is any of these things - it slowly churns out units (which has to be one of the most boring unit mechanics we've seen yet) and I don't think 'slowly whittling away' is something exciting for spectators, Zerg players, or opponents.
I'd love to see it get re-tooled or replaced.
|
On April 10 2013 03:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just want blizzard to hurry the fuck up and patch the damn game already.
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM)
We definitely need more patience. Not that many high level games have been played, and those that have rather show that the game is far from being figured out.
For example, DRG v Flying today showcased that swarmhost play is far from being refined. DRG mismicroed them several times, walking them into the enemy army due to misclicks. Also, he got them stormed, or large numbers of them cut off by forcefields and killed because he did not micro them back when he had the chance. There's more to be said about those games, but still the conclusion is that players are not showing refined play that we got used to in late WoL.
As for DRGs games against Yoda, unfortunately no conclusions can be made because in the first DRG tried playing mutalingbane with 11 upgrades against Yoda's 33 upgrades and in the second he lost 24 drones to a simple hellion drop that would have worked the same in WoL. The counter to that would have been better overlord placement so that one cannot drop inside his base without him knowing about it. So, despite WMs being used in those games, they did not play a crucial role in either game.
Instead of patching immediately, we should wait to see how the units actually interact when people learn how to use them properly.
|
Some things we don't need to 'wait and see' - the evidence is already there.
WM are clearly broken by just looking at them on paper:
-75/25/2
-hits air
-doesn't expend itself on use
-125 damage (+ splash)
-splash
-burrows (thus requires detection)
-t1
-90 hp
The level of effort required to deal with Widow Mines vs the effort (and risk) required to use widow mines is completely out of whack. There are many pro games showcasing this.
And for those that say 'well the koreans are doing okay' or 'Zergs are well represented on the ladder' - here's a thread from 2010 where people made the exact same arguments about ZvT when WoL launched, yet now everyone acknowledges readily and plainly that Z was underpowered and T was overpowered.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=144149
Skytoss is another example. It's clearly overpowered in PvZ and at a certain point quite literally becomes uncounterable.
|
I have a feeling they will release a balance patch right after this ladder season concludes... It's coming right up on 04/30. I'm hoping skytoss, widow mines, and swarm hosts are all tweaked.
|
On April 10 2013 05:07 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 03:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just want blizzard to hurry the fuck up and patch the damn game already.
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM) We definitely need more patience. Not that many high level games have been played, and those that have rather show that the game is far from being figured out. For example, DRG v Flying today showcased that swarmhost play is far from being refined. DRG mismicroed them several times, walking them into the enemy army due to misclicks. Also, he got them stormed, or large numbers of them cut off by forcefields and killed because he did not micro them back when he had the chance. There's more to be said about those games, but still the conclusion is that players are not showing refined play that we got used to in late WoL. As for DRGs games against Yoda, unfortunately no conclusions can be made because in the first DRG tried playing mutalingbane with 11 upgrades against Yoda's 33 upgrades and in the second he lost 24 drones to a simple hellion drop that would have worked the same in WoL. The counter to that would have been better overlord placement so that one cannot drop inside his base without him knowing about it. So, despite WMs being used in those games, they did not play a crucial role in either game. Instead of patching immediately, we should wait to see how the units actually interact when people learn how to use them properly.
I guess we'll just have to enjoy nuggets like these until that time comes around:
LIGMYoda
How come you were expecting to get third place?
I had a feeling that I was going to win the first match no matter what since it was a TvZ but TvP was so difficult during practice that I just told myself to go for third place.
Any specific group you desire for the Ro16?
I don't really care about the other races. I just want a lot of Zergs in my group (laughs).
|
On April 10 2013 05:27 Merkmerk wrote:
WM are clearly broken by just looking at them on paper:
-75/25/2
-hits air
-doesn't expend itself on use
-125 damage (+ splash)
-splash
-burrows (thus requires detection)
-t1
-90 hp
requires to be set up
unmoveable when set up
T2
laughable dps
actually only really counters 2-3 zerg units (mutalisk, baneling, and maybe the zergling, though varies strongly by micro)
if you want to look for why zergs struggle currently try with such a unit:
counters all zerg units per cost apart from baneling and infestor
if blizzard has balls, they try to attack the 10dps 50mineral only beast that forces all the splash-or-die gameplay instead of nerfing everything that supports it all the time. (5+1vs light, thanks)
|
don't get the WM hate, honestly Zerg units/player suck overall and it's not WM's fault. Give ppl some more time ffs, the game is not even a month old yet. Blizzard wasted 8 months of WoL for BL/Infestors and now you guys are complaining?
|
Does anyone else think that the Hellbat for having so much HP, such high damage versus light and AoE, and being relatively easy to obtain should be looked over balance-wise? I'm okay with it being a game changing unit when used properly, but at least I know in PvT it really doesn't feel as balanced as I think it could be. At least before in WoL, Protoss could utilize Chargelots and Blink Stalkers to whittle away an inferior Terran Bio force, but now Zealots (which are pivotal in absorbing damage and dealing preliminary damage for Tier 3 units) are eviscerated almost instantly, not to mention Stalkers require quite a bit of micro to deal with Hellbats with any sort of efficiency. One literally has to grab Archons (and a good several of them) and Colossus to deal with these units, which is okay until Ghosts or Vikings are introduced. I'm not crying imbalance necessarily, just food for thought and I'm curious to hear level-minded opinions about it.
|
On April 10 2013 06:14 tuho12345 wrote:
don't get the WM hate, honestly Zerg units/player suck overall and it's not WM's fault. Give ppl some more time ffs, the game is not even a month old yet. Blizzard wasted 8 months of WoL for BL/Infestors and now you guys are complaining?
I guess it's because WMs provide a new micro challenge for zergs they didn't really have before, and in difficulty its probably comparable to splitting marines against banes. It took a loooong time before terrans learned how to split, and although HOTS is a bit easier to figure out with our WOL knowledge in the background, there is a learning curve there that is yet to be conquered.
What's more annoying to me is the people who somehow try the argue that the WM is fundamentally flawed and want to essentially remove its viability in unit comps such as bio/mine. My only guess is that it comes from laziness and reluctance to actually learn how to deal with them, but please look at terrans having to learn bio splitting from ages ago and maybe readjust your expectations a bit. The unit might get toned down but it's here to stay.
|
Let's see how are the Zergs doing since the HotS launch:
Life won the MLG. We had 4 weeks of ZOTAC / Go4Sc2 cups and guys like Nerchio, Bly, Dimaga, Hope, Snute somehow managed to win these.
It took 8 months for the zerg to utterly dismount all the other races after the queen buff.
Now, after 4 weeks of strugle, despite having successfull runs in both the small and the big cups the zs feels it is the right time to unleash the whining. This is pretty disgusting.
Maybe wait for a single big event Zerg does not win before you start to cry like a bunch of plushies.
|
I'm a masters zerg player. The amount of absurd whine in this thread from fellow Z players is disheartening. The game just came out. We're still learning.
Might WMs be OP? Of course.
Is it too early to tell? ABSOLUTELY.
|
laughable dps
You probably shouldn't use DPS as a measurable statistic with a unit like the Widow Mine if you want people to take your opinions seriously.
Baneling DPS declines over the course of the game because it only attacks once. It's meaningless.
T2
Building a barracks and then building a factory doesn't make it T2. That's like saying Roaches are T2. T1.5 is probably more appropriate.
I guess it's because WMs provide a new micro challenge for zergs they didn't really have before, and in difficulty its probably comparable to splitting marines against banes.
Yes, Stephano is just upset because it's a new challenge and totally not because the micro required to deal with WM's is >>>>>>>>>>the micro required to use them.
Come on guys you're better than this.
|
It's a good sign that the discussion has gone to shit when people start arguing about tiers.
Yes, Stephano is just upset because it's a new challenge and totally not because the micro required to deal with WM's is >>>>>>>>>>the micro required to use them.
Come on guys you're better than this.
Marines vs banes, bio vs zealot/archon. You don't need to remind terran players about imbalanced micro requirements.
|
On April 10 2013 07:13 Merkmerk wrote:
Yes, Stephano is just upset because it's a new challenge and totally not because the micro required to deal with WM's is >>>>>>>>>>the micro required to use them.
I've just watched DeMuslim win vs Stephano with a standard Marine-Medivac-Marauder composition. Well, now Stephano is probably upset about the MMM, it clearly needs a nerf too.
And DeMuslim just reached #1 GM on NA... such a scrub should never win vs fan-favorite zerg.
And on a serious note: the micro required to use widow mines is well-known. You look for a good position, leapfrog: unburrow, move, burrow. The very same thing all the terrans were doing with their siege tanks for the last two years.
And dealing with mines is something new people need to learn.
|
I just like how some terran players pretend that marine splitting is the holy grail of micro lol. There are plenty of micro challenges in all races like zvz baneling battles or blink micro.
|
On April 10 2013 07:13 Merkmerk wrote:Building a barracks and then building a factory doesn't make it T2. That's like saying Roaches are T2. T1.5 is probably more appropriate.
Terran doesn't have tiers nor does Protoss for that matter. Only Zerg has them.
|
|
|
|
|
Stephano can't adapt, so he resorts to the same tactic he have been using for eons and wonders why he is failing in the current ever changing meta.
Muta is popular? better not make them.
On April 10 2013 07:34 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 05:56 m0ck wrote:On April 10 2013 05:07 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 10 2013 03:10 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I just want blizzard to hurry the fuck up and patch the damn game already.
At least nerf the widow mines like david kim originally planned on doing (interview at IEM) I had a feeling that I was going to win the first match no matter what since it was a TvZ but TvP was so difficult during practice that I just told myself to go for third place. I agree with Yoda about TvZ but I didn't know any Terrans were having problems vs Toss. Seriously though TvZ is getting a little ridiculous. It feels like I haven't seen a Zerg win one in forever.
Some races are harder for ppl. I feel confident about TvZ but I cannot handle toss for life of me.
Its probably the other way for MKP. He have the sickest TvP winrates
Also roro + life comes to mind. There is also 2 zergs that all killed GSTL, and zerg do tends to beat terran in proleagues but lose horribly to toss.
You just have to not watch foreign zergs streams
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
