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On April 10 2013 00:02 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 23:55 Wombat_NI wrote:
They complain because it's hard to scout out. You often tend to be stuck in your base and soft-contained with a stalker/MsC for the all-in variants of Oracle-centred play, and it's often proxied which can make scans unreliable.
Based on the information you can gather at those timings, you can't rule out say, an immortal bust, or various other things which require very different responses to heavy oracle play. Build a load of bunkers, put your SCVs inside if they have oracles. Salvage if they don't go oracles. You can have that one for free.
And when you waste a bunch of money on bunkers and put yourself way behind for no reason, then what?
Sadly, Blizzard never took Incontrol's bunker economy suggestion to heart, so I can't even accrue interest on my bunker farms.
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Northern Ireland25128 Posts
And if he's busting your front with immortals or a gateway allin, would you not just die?
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On April 09 2013 23:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 21:41 Hypemeup wrote:On April 09 2013 21:32 Big J wrote:On April 09 2013 21:25 Hypemeup wrote:On April 09 2013 20:40 Rossie wrote:On April 09 2013 20:25 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Do we really want to go back to the camp on 3-4 bases boringness of WoL? No. Which is why it's questionable in the extreme that Protoss is given a "harass" unit that's only effective at killing workers. Or maybe a tech lab if you're lucky. I want to level buildings, I want to be able to destroy isolated missile turrets. Not get forced into turtle play as soon as they have a little static defence. Which, incidentally, is the same static defence that is the counter to DTs, phoenixes, void rays, and, after a fashion, even warp prisms. Harass is not supposed to kill the other guy outright. that's not what he said. He said he wants to be able to pick of buildings. Like drops are doing all the time. He also himself said that sometimes oracles can pick of Tlabs. And single drops should never pick off any building, it requires a screwup on the other guys end. Oracle dps vs a building: 10 1 marauder dps vs a building: 20 1 marine dps vs a building: 10 (yeah armor plays a role in all of those situations... however it doesn't matter for what I'm saying) If we consider 1-2 oracles being able to picking up a 400health techlab then we should consider 8supply of MM being easily able to pick of a 900health robotics. Or two. (blablabla about investment costs, difference of races whatever... in the end it turns out that terran drops do pick off buildings very often and oracles don't. No matter whether it requires a screwup or not. It happens a lot)
In theory, a void ray should be able to kill a building with its 45 dps while charged. I have not felt comfortable doing it yet, but it is definitely something that I intend to try in the future (busy adding other things to my game atm).
Oracles are good at killing light, void rays for armored.
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On April 09 2013 23:53 TimENT wrote:
The only balance issues I see right now are-
-maybe mines op v Z BARELY (buff overseers? i don't wanna see the game slow down...)
medivacs & airtoss haven't really dominated any games I've seen. mainly mistakes made by the opponents
Well I don't think there is a lot to change about the mine, and I'm not for making them less stronger because it's really make some cool games but maybe it could be a little bit more fragile, first by changing it's priority in the AI (against BIO+mine, unit will always try to attack the bio first which is a problem right now) and maybe the health so you can't run beneath the opponent army, burrow and kill everything. Buffing overseer ain't a bad idea either, just the speed so it can follow mutalisk and/or Zergling.
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On April 10 2013 00:09 forsooth wrote:
And when you waste a bunch of money on bunkers and put yourself way behind for no reason, then what?
Sadly, Blizzard never took Incontrol's bunker economy suggestion to heart, so I can't even accrue interest on my bunker farms. I guess that's the sense entitlement of Terran players.
Why should you have to invest in defence? Why should you have to scout the enemy army composition?
It doesn't occur to you that gold league Protoss players have been playing to a higher strategic standard than, apparently, Grandmaster Terran players. Scouting a spire and immediately preparing blink, cannons, and even templar archives, was fairly old hat for Protoss. But building some refundable defensive structures is asking too much of Terran players.
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I really like an overseer buff. Maybe so that it starts with the overlord speed the only side effect with that is that the upgrade it self becomes more uless.
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As a zerg I have one question about WM's, do they really need to target both ground and air?
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Northern Ireland25128 Posts
On April 10 2013 00:31 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 00:09 forsooth wrote:
And when you waste a bunch of money on bunkers and put yourself way behind for no reason, then what?
Sadly, Blizzard never took Incontrol's bunker economy suggestion to heart, so I can't even accrue interest on my bunker farms. I guess that's the sense entitlement of Terran players. Why should you have to invest in defence? Why should you have to scout the enemy army composition? It doesn't occur to you that gold league Protoss players have been playing to a higher strategic standard than, apparently, Grandmaster Terran players. Scouting a spire and immediately preparing blink, cannons, and even templar archives, was fairly old hat for Protoss. But building some refundable defensive structures is asking too much of Terran players.
You are referring to a blind oracle-centric defense, ignoring what I just posted on what other builds that opens you up to.
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On April 10 2013 00:31 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 00:09 forsooth wrote:
And when you waste a bunch of money on bunkers and put yourself way behind for no reason, then what?
Sadly, Blizzard never took Incontrol's bunker economy suggestion to heart, so I can't even accrue interest on my bunker farms. I guess that's the sense entitlement of Terran players. Why should you have to invest in defence? Why should you have to scout the enemy army composition? It doesn't occur to you that gold league Protoss players have been playing to a higher strategic standard than, apparently, Grandmaster Terran players. Scouting a spire and immediately preparing blink, cannons, and even templar archives, was fairly old hat for Protoss. But building some refundable defensive structures is asking too much of Terran players.
Get a grip. Mutas is an incredibly heavy investment, and they hit way later than oracles. Ofcourse terran players should invest in defense, but not six blind bunkers in the early game.
Comparing gold level players to grand masters, jesus christ......
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Overseers could use a sight / detection range upgrade and just start with speed already.
That would be helpful.
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On April 10 2013 00:31 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 00:09 forsooth wrote:
And when you waste a bunch of money on bunkers and put yourself way behind for no reason, then what?
Sadly, Blizzard never took Incontrol's bunker economy suggestion to heart, so I can't even accrue interest on my bunker farms. I guess that's the sense entitlement of Terran players. Why should you have to invest in defence? Why should you have to scout the enemy army composition? It doesn't occur to you that gold league Protoss players have been playing to a higher strategic standard than, apparently, Grandmaster Terran players. Scouting a spire and immediately preparing blink, cannons, and even templar archives, was fairly old hat for Protoss. But building some refundable defensive structures is asking too much of Terran players.
Those bunkers might not be viable in a really tight game. Most minerals are accounted for in any standard build and players don't have 150 just sitting around that they can use for something that might come. The topic of scouting is more appropriate for the discussion.
Personally, i don't see it has a huge issue. Stargate openings are pretty telegraphed by the low number of gas based units for protoss early on. Unlike robo and twilight openings, protoss does not normally build a ton of sentries/stalkers because they want the oracles early. Terran has enough tools to root this out if they see a heavy gas opening without any gased based ground units.
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On April 10 2013 01:05 Plansix wrote:
Those bunkers might not be viable in a really tight game. Most minerals are accounted for in any standard build and players don't have 150 just sitting around that they can use for something that might come. The topic of scouting is more appropriate for the discussion. Yeah...I don't have much tolerance for that line of thinking.
I was talking to Zergs a while back about why they don't have tighter defense earlier on in ZvZ to protect from all-ins. They rehearsed the familiar story about how the 150 minerals investment will cripple their start, yadda yadda. And then I watch Stephano's stream and see him repeatedly get 2 spinecrawlers when he's unsure whether he's facing an early rush. Not 1 like I suggested, but 2.
It's implausible nonsense to justify the lazy and uncreative metagame. 150 minerals is equivalent to throwing away 3 marines. Even at Code S level that isn't so important a difference. And none of us are anywhere near Code S.
As for this thing about bunkers. I'm not exactly serious...but it's helpful to give you an upper bound on the scope of the problem. 4 bunkers would shut down the oracles, and they can be salvaged. Toss has already invested in a stargate. Worst case scenario is Terran can float a building to scout the oracles and then throw down bunkers as an emergency precaution. But they don't seem to be that enterprising.
It's simply not a serious problem compared with the shit that Toss has to figure out how deal with right from gold league.
And comparing master league and gold is quite legitimate when the comparison in question is more a reflection on differential IQ than APM.
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Northern Ireland25128 Posts
On April 10 2013 01:26 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 01:05 Plansix wrote:
Those bunkers might not be viable in a really tight game. Most minerals are accounted for in any standard build and players don't have 150 just sitting around that they can use for something that might come. The topic of scouting is more appropriate for the discussion. Yeah...I don't have much tolerance for that line of thinking. I was talking to Zergs a while back about why they don't have tighter defense earlier on in ZvZ to protect from all-ins. They rehearsed the familiar story about how the 150 minerals investment will cripple their start, yadda yadda. And then I watch Stephano's stream and see him repeatedly get 2 spinecrawlers when he's unsure whether he's facing an early rush. It's implausible nonsense to justify the lazy and uncreative metagame. 150 minerals is equivalent to throwing away 3 marines. Even at Code S level that isn't so important a difference. And none of us are anywhere near Code S. As for this thing about bunkers. I'm not exactly serious...but it's helpful to give you an upper bound on the scope of the problem. 4 bunkers would shut down the oracles, and they can be salvaged. Toss has already invested in a stargate. It's simply not a serious problem compared with the shit that Toss has to figure out how deal with right from gold league. And comparing master league and gold is quite legitimate when the comparison in question is more a reflection on differential IQ than APM.
It's not 150 minerals per bunker, it's the mining time for pulling those SCVs off for the duration of building them as well.
The issue is these builds, especially the allin variants are at the times where well-placed stalkers can stop you poking around the map, and especially in the case of a proxy stargate you are somewhat in the dark on this. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Terran players aren't retarded
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On April 10 2013 01:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's not 150 minerals per bunker, it's the mining time for pulling those SCVs off for the duration of building them as well. I'm just talking an emergency procedure, assuming you scout the oracles with a floating building or scan.
On April 10 2013 01:29 Wombat_NI wrote:The issue is these builds, especially the allin variants are at the times where well-placed stalkers can stop you poking around the map, and especially in the case of a proxy stargate you are somewhat in the dark on this. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Terran players aren't retarded Not retarded, but maybe lazy and too used to being allowed to win matches by doing nothing but spam the marines.
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On April 10 2013 01:29 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 01:26 Rossie wrote:On April 10 2013 01:05 Plansix wrote:
Those bunkers might not be viable in a really tight game. Most minerals are accounted for in any standard build and players don't have 150 just sitting around that they can use for something that might come. The topic of scouting is more appropriate for the discussion. Yeah...I don't have much tolerance for that line of thinking. I was talking to Zergs a while back about why they don't have tighter defense earlier on in ZvZ to protect from all-ins. They rehearsed the familiar story about how the 150 minerals investment will cripple their start, yadda yadda. And then I watch Stephano's stream and see him repeatedly get 2 spinecrawlers when he's unsure whether he's facing an early rush. It's implausible nonsense to justify the lazy and uncreative metagame. 150 minerals is equivalent to throwing away 3 marines. Even at Code S level that isn't so important a difference. And none of us are anywhere near Code S. As for this thing about bunkers. I'm not exactly serious...but it's helpful to give you an upper bound on the scope of the problem. 4 bunkers would shut down the oracles, and they can be salvaged. Toss has already invested in a stargate. It's simply not a serious problem compared with the shit that Toss has to figure out how deal with right from gold league. And comparing master league and gold is quite legitimate when the comparison in question is more a reflection on differential IQ than APM. It's not 150 minerals per bunker, it's the mining time for pulling those SCVs off for the duration of building them as well. The issue is these builds, especially the allin variants are at the times where well-placed stalkers can stop you poking around the map, and especially in the case of a proxy stargate you are somewhat in the dark on this. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Terran players aren't retarded
To be fair, you should be able to scout the double gas before a stalker ever enters the field. With an early reaper, you should be able at least narrow the field of all-in that could be coming before the stalkers chase them out. If its a proxy stargate, tracking it down could be a matter of luck, but proxy builds are nothing new.
Spotting all-ins is a hard task for any of the races if the other side is set on denying information. But terran has enough tools to tell when something really stupid is in route.
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On April 10 2013 01:26 Rossie wrote:
And comparing master league and gold is quite legitimate when the comparison in question is more a reflection on differential IQ than APM.
I don't think oracles are a problem for terran, at least not until we se more of them. I can't manage to keep myself away from this discussion though, because I simply think bunkering mineral lines in the early game is so blatantly stupid. Turrets cover the same ground, and if you wanna hide your scv's inside you need like at least six bunkers.
Regarding the iq and apm thing I am a masters player and my apm was about 60-70 in WoL when it was actually measurable.
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On April 10 2013 01:35 Plansix wrote:
To be fair, you should be able to scout the double gas before a stalker ever enters the field. With an early reaper, you should be able at least narrow the field of all-in that could be coming before the stalkers chase them out. If its a proxy stargate, tracking it down could be a matter of luck, but proxy builds are nothing new. Yeah, that's what I mean. For God's sake...PLATINUM Protoss players have had to scout double gas. Yet it seems to be utterly beyond Terran (probably because it requires a bit of strategy as opposed to just clicking really fast).
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Northern Ireland25128 Posts
MC made even top Koreans look stupid with his oracle allin, that said it was a very very new build at the time. Early double gas doesn't really rule out a lot of other builds either.
I think Bomber has it down with his reaper/fast CC opening, it seems to solve many of the scouting issues that I mention without delaying things like medivac timings quite so much.
For the record I play Protoss, if that matters at all.
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On April 10 2013 01:33 Rossie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 01:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
It's not 150 minerals per bunker, it's the mining time for pulling those SCVs off for the duration of building them as well. I'm just talking an emergency procedure, assuming you scout the oracles with a floating building or scan. Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 01:29 Wombat_NI wrote:The issue is these builds, especially the allin variants are at the times where well-placed stalkers can stop you poking around the map, and especially in the case of a proxy stargate you are somewhat in the dark on this. I don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Terran players aren't retarded Not retarded, but maybe lazy and too used to being allowed to win matches by doing nothing but spam the marines.
Knock it off, that kind of crap is pointless. He raises valid points and the whole "Just build buckers near your mineral line" is not very helpful or viable. If I am going to deny information, it can be very hard to figure out what I am are doing. Also, all aggression is harder to defend than it is to execute. Some terrans do lean on marines to hard, but some protoss also love to all-in. Rather than calling them lazy and gold level, why don't you provide some sort of advice beyond "scout better and build bunkers"
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On April 10 2013 01:38 Wombat_NI wrote:
MC made even top Koreans look stupid with his oracle allin, that said it was a very very new build at the time. Early double gas doesn't really rule out a lot of other builds either.
I think Bomber has it down with his reaper/fast CC opening, it seems to solve many of the scouting issues that I mention without delaying things like medivac timings quite so much.
For the record I play Protoss, if that matters at all.
I think so as well. Reapers are really good for scouting and keeping the initial stalker at home for a while. In general, I feel I need to build one stalker per reaper I see until warpgate is finished. Of course, they have a clock on them, but the information they can get is almost always worth it.
I think we are going to see more forward barracks for even quicker reapers. They keep everyone honest and prevent builds like nexus first and ones that rely on zealot/sentry. Plus, there is nothing like putting that panic in a player when they can't find the first barracks in the main. Sucks all the efficiency right out of my build.
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EPT
