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On April 08 2013 02:31 BigAsia wrote:
How many all-ins does protoss have vs Terran?
How many terran has:
you could do the same thing for zerg vs terran.
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On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete)
You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units. I don't know why you bring up static defense as a reason why Banshees are worse when Banshees are much better against static defense than Oracles. Banshees have 6 range compared to an Oracle's 4. You only need a single turret, spore, or cannon in your mineral line to deter an Oracle. But you need 2 for a Banshee.
And the point about energy, is that Oracles can't put on constant pressure like any other type of harass unit. After an oracle has gone in once, the opponent knows they are safe again for at least a minute. There is no threat that the Oracle can come back since it has to regain energy. This means that Protosses cannot split up the opponent's army and attention indefinitely like a Terran can.
And then after all that, an Oracle (150/150) costs more than a Banshee (150/100).
So again, they both have strengths and weaknesses, but overall are very similar units. And if you are saying that Banshees are obviously the worst terran unit, then Oracles can't possibly be as good as you think.
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Oracles need to be drastically buffed.
Perhaps for low level play they kill probes and scvs too fast. I can't speak on that.
It's also possible that they might be a strong when used in an all in. I doubt that, people used to think VR all ins were too strong. Still, this is at least a possibility. We'll need quite a few more tournament games to see.
But they desperately need some mid game and late game utility. Or rather, any non-rush utility. If you build Oracles and they are competently defended against PvT, the game is over.
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On April 08 2013 02:46 -_- wrote:
Oracles need to be drastically buffed.
Perhaps for low level play they kill probes and scvs too fast. I can't speak on that.
It's also possible that they might be a strong when used in an all in. I doubt that, people used to think VR all ins were too strong. Still, this is at least a possibility. We'll need quite a few more tournament games to see.
But they desperately need some mid game and late game utility. Or rather, any non-rush utility. If you build Oracles and they are competently defended against PvT, the game is over.
Well it is true that David Kim said that from their data the Oracle deserves a buff for how much of a commitment it is. So we might just get one.
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On April 08 2013 02:41 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete) You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units.
I don't know what exactly you are doing, but your math must be way off.
Oracle DPS vs. ground is 17.4 (+11.6 light), banshee DPS is 19.2 flat. Oracles have more health (100/60 vs. 140), so the strength of oracles and banshees vs. turrets is pretty much identical.
Now if you are just going to ignore the actual stats of the units and rely on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) this discussion won't lead anywhere. I'm an evidentialist, it is very apparent to me that you are not. If you have a descartian rationalistic approach to things and think some things are just self-evident and don't require actual fact checking I'm sure you can have nice discussions... with yourself.
We are done.
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On April 08 2013 02:50 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:41 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete) You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units. I don't know what exactly you are doing, but your math must be way off. Oracle DPS vs. ground is 17.4 (+11.6 light), banshee DPS is 19.2 flat. Oracles have more health (100/60 vs. 140), so the strength of oracles and banshees vs. turrets is pretty much identical. Now if you are just going to ignore the actual stats of the units and rely on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) this discussion won't lead anywhere. I'm an evidentialist, it is very apparent to me that you are not. If you have a descartian rationalistic approach to things and think some things are just self-evident and don't require actual fact checking I'm sure you can have nice discussions... with yourself. We are done.
I'm glad you agree Oracles and Banshees are pretty much identical, that was my whole point. Now are you going to explain how by your logic one can be obviously the worst Terran unit while the other is overpowered?
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On April 08 2013 02:53 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:50 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:41 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete) You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units. I don't know what exactly you are doing, but your math must be way off. Oracle DPS vs. ground is 17.4 (+11.6 light), banshee DPS is 19.2 flat. Oracles have more health (100/60 vs. 140), so the strength of oracles and banshees vs. turrets is pretty much identical. Now if you are just going to ignore the actual stats of the units and rely on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) this discussion won't lead anywhere. I'm an evidentialist, it is very apparent to me that you are not. If you have a descartian rationalistic approach to things and think some things are just self-evident and don't require actual fact checking I'm sure you can have nice discussions... with yourself. We are done. I'm glad you agree Oracles and Banshees are pretty much identical, that was my whole point. Now are you going to explain how by your logic one can be obviously the worst Terran unit while the other is overpowered?
How did you get that from what I just said? I refuted your argument that banshees are superior to oracles vs. static defense. However, banshees are vastly inferior to oracles in all other areas (damage, build time, movement speed and health).
I already explained this once, I'm not going to do it again.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
Banshee's take 50 less gas, they can cloak if you commit to the research, their production structure is less expensive (50 less gas, more easily reachable earlier, less committed), they can try to harass without giving up their combat potential, the races are different. Mules and chronoboost, protoss's requirement for AOE to stay relevant in the midgame if there's not a lot of engagements/harass early, you just cant compare like that. Fig has good arguments.
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On April 08 2013 02:57 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:53 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:50 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:41 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete) You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units. I don't know what exactly you are doing, but your math must be way off. Oracle DPS vs. ground is 17.4 (+11.6 light), banshee DPS is 19.2 flat. Oracles have more health (100/60 vs. 140), so the strength of oracles and banshees vs. turrets is pretty much identical. Now if you are just going to ignore the actual stats of the units and rely on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) this discussion won't lead anywhere. I'm an evidentialist, it is very apparent to me that you are not. If you have a descartian rationalistic approach to things and think some things are just self-evident and don't require actual fact checking I'm sure you can have nice discussions... with yourself. We are done. I'm glad you agree Oracles and Banshees are pretty much identical, that was my whole point. Now are you going to explain how by your logic one can be obviously the worst Terran unit while the other is overpowered? How did you get that from what I just said? I refuted your argument that banshees are superior to oracles vs. static defense. However, banshees are vastly inferior to oracles in all other areas (damage, build time, movement speed and health). I already explained this once, I'm not going to do it again.
You look at the Oracle as the strongest unit in the game, while seeing the Banshee as trash. I encourage you to try out some Protoss, so you actually can compare the two. And who knows, maybe you'll have more fun using the quirky units Protoss has to offer. I know I do. And I now remember why I stopped posting here long ago. I wish you fun in your future HotS endeavors. You'll never see me in this thread again.
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On April 08 2013 02:46 -_- wrote:
Oracles need to be drastically buffed.
Perhaps for low level play they kill probes and scvs too fast. I can't speak on that.
It's also possible that they might be a strong when used in an all in. I doubt that, people used to think VR all ins were too strong. Still, this is at least a possibility. We'll need quite a few more tournament games to see.
But they desperately need some mid game and late game utility. Or rather, any non-rush utility. If you build Oracles and they are competently defended against PvT, the game is over.
I don't see why Oracles need any buff.They are one of the best early game units,amazing for harassment and even if the terran defends the game is not over cause he invested a lot to do this.
Other uses midgame and lategame? Scouting,envision so you can detect stuff,drop defense because of the dps and revelation which is amazing,maybe even better than scan.What else do you need?
I think it's great.I mean take a look at the banshee which is a similar unit,what uses does it have mid-late game,it's pretty much useless.
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On April 08 2013 02:57 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:53 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:50 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:41 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete) You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units. I don't know what exactly you are doing, but your math must be way off. Oracle DPS vs. ground is 17.4 (+11.6 light), banshee DPS is 19.2 flat. Oracles have more health (100/60 vs. 140), so the strength of oracles and banshees vs. turrets is pretty much identical. Now if you are just going to ignore the actual stats of the units and rely on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) this discussion won't lead anywhere. I'm an evidentialist, it is very apparent to me that you are not. If you have a descartian rationalistic approach to things and think some things are just self-evident and don't require actual fact checking I'm sure you can have nice discussions... with yourself. We are done. I'm glad you agree Oracles and Banshees are pretty much identical, that was my whole point. Now are you going to explain how by your logic one can be obviously the worst Terran unit while the other is overpowered? How did you get that from what I just said? I refuted your argument that banshees are superior to oracles vs. static defense. However, banshees are vastly inferior to oracles in all other areas (damage, build time, movement speed and health). I already explained this once, I'm not going to do it again.
Um, you said all other areas. Do cost and range not count to you apparently? Banshees cost less and have 2 better range while requiring less tech commitment(Terran needs a star port, Protoss doesn't need a stargate. The significantly superior range also means they have micro potential that oracles don't have. They also have more usefulness out of harassment because of better flat DPS and range.
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On April 08 2013 02:46 -_- wrote:
Oracles need to be drastically buffed.
Perhaps for low level play they kill probes and scvs too fast. I can't speak on that.
It's also possible that they might be a strong when used in an all in. I doubt that, people used to think VR all ins were too strong. Still, this is at least a possibility. We'll need quite a few more tournament games to see.
But they desperately need some mid game and late game utility. Or rather, any non-rush utility. If you build Oracles and they are competently defended against PvT, the game is over.
You might want to look at how Rain used it in Flash vs Rain in recent Proleague series.
But of course, you're not Rain :D.
And there is nothing wrong with a unit being an "early-game unit", like reapers, even more so than oracles.
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On April 07 2013 16:39 DooMDash wrote:
I just can't wrap my head around why Protoss needed a range 15 air unit that hits ground and air and deals bonus dmg to massive. Were they having problems with something I didn't know about? I always thought vikings had excellent range but now it's like I have to take hits on both my ground and air army just to get in range of Tempests. Really no way to deal with them in tough situations where you don't have enough to advance, which makes defending completely a one sided affair. It would be one thing if they had a designed disadvantage like the siege tank ( siege mode ), but they really don't. Why do we need more mindless units for protoss? Terran has a few kind of, like the Thor, but at least its massive as heck and can get in the way of other things so it has some needed planning and or micro involved.
Blizzard needs to think a little deeper about a few of these units. I'm just not happy with the way Protoss units are designed in this game... I don't think I can preach the Reaver coming back more ( replacing other units ).
Broodlords. And tempests are only useful against Terran mech. They don't do any real DPS to bio units.
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On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier.
You cannot compare units one to one to judge racial balance.
Oracles need energy to attack, while banshees – as long as uncontested – can shoot all day long. Banshees are less expensive than the oracle. (On the other hand, the oracle does have access to some useful spells.)
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On April 08 2013 00:58 wswas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 00:39 [F_]aths wrote:On April 08 2013 00:02 Reborn8u wrote:
. If it would be so easy to create a good RTS as some TL posters think, we would had a lot of those game available. im not disagreeing with you but i think a big reason why we have so few rts is because it's kind of a niche genre nowadays. buuuuut i guess that's not really the discussion here.
SC had great success in South Korea, WC3 had moderate success (compared to today's standards) in the western world and in China. Blizzard is not the only company making RTS, but neither AoE, nor C&C, nor DoW really developed into an esports, nor does the longevity compare to Blizzard's recent two RTS titles (WC3 and SC2.) Broodwar was proof that a good RTS game does not need to have shiny cutting-edge pixelshader-laden graphics. Seeing how many experts are on the forums which seemingly all are able to see what Dustin Browder and his team did wrong, we should have a lot of good RTS avaiable. One could probably make profit to sell copies just to all those experts.
Since the SC2 editor is so powerful, one would at least expect that the community-driven mods really are used. In actual tournaments, since Dustin Browder is reportedly just a scrub with no good understanding of the game.
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On April 07 2013 20:22 Thrillz wrote:
I don't know what that guy is saying....you can't be serious in saying that PvT lategame is Terran favored and always has been. PvT lategame was one of the biggest sources of complains from Terrans until BL/Infestor overshadowed everything. The difficulty in dealing/controlling well versus the maxed out and heavily upgraded Protoss army has always been high. That's why Terran has to do damage midgame, as they don't have the advantage early and lategame. Only the superlategame, with split map and mass Ghost+Vikings+Orbitals do they regain the advantage.
Also I agree with Rabiator, Blizzard's asymmetrical balance is pretty bad because the amount of skewing at certain points of the game were huge. I'm actually in favor of removing things like Warpgate,Injects, Mules, and while we're at it, remove uninteresting, low skill ceiling, and deathball units.
guess you have never played super lategame, where Terran has enough vikings and ghosts in lategame.
There is no counter to this in the protoss arsenal to this (army wise), even Grubby told he had this issue on to understand what to do against this composition.
While Protoss should have the more durable army design wise, most of their units are glass canons.
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Northern Ireland23791 Posts
Oracles don't really need a buff, people just need to use them in interesting ways.
Envision in lategame vs T seems super, super strong when they are sniping every observer you have to keep tabs on their army. Drop it on their ghosts especially and there's a lot of utility there.
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On April 08 2013 04:30 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 20:22 Thrillz wrote:
I don't know what that guy is saying....you can't be serious in saying that PvT lategame is Terran favored and always has been. PvT lategame was one of the biggest sources of complains from Terrans until BL/Infestor overshadowed everything. The difficulty in dealing/controlling well versus the maxed out and heavily upgraded Protoss army has always been high. That's why Terran has to do damage midgame, as they don't have the advantage early and lategame. Only the superlategame, with split map and mass Ghost+Vikings+Orbitals do they regain the advantage.
Also I agree with Rabiator, Blizzard's asymmetrical balance is pretty bad because the amount of skewing at certain points of the game were huge. I'm actually in favor of removing things like Warpgate,Injects, Mules, and while we're at it, remove uninteresting, low skill ceiling, and deathball units. guess you have never played super lategame, where Terran has enough vikings and ghosts in lategame. There is no counter to this in the protoss arsenal to this (army wise), even Grubby told he had this issue on to understand what to do against this composition. While Protoss should have the more durable army design wise, most of their units are glass canons.
I agree (for WoL) on the TvP lategame part, though I believe endgame air could help against that (e.g. tempests to force the terran to come to you, instead of vikings/snipes forcing the protoss to engage into the Terran).
For the Protoss glass canon design - I don't think so. Stalkers, Zealots, Colossi, Immortals, Archons are all units that are designed to take hits while not doing as much damage as "compareable" T/Z units (e.g. marine/marauder-stalker, zergling-zealot). Imo that's one of the reasons why Protoss is such a deathball race - hardly any units really make an impact at undefended locations. Basically you can go zealots, DTs and HTs to kill stuff - the first one needing a superspread out opponent, the other two being extremly costly toys, mostly only useful as harass unit when you are in a very stable high economy situation. Well, phoenixes come to mind as well, which are most interesting against Zerg because of Overlords. Outside of that, their harass potential is limited.
Compare this to Z/T: zerglings, marines, marauders, roaches, hellions/hellbats, widow mines, banelings are all cheap & mobile "throwaway" units with high/reasonable damage output for their cost. On the other side stalkers or Colossi or immortals... a few of those units running into an expansion just make the opponent thankful for the donation.
Though I believe this is not too far from what you are implying --> Protoss units are extremly "precious", as they cost a lot but don't do too much when you cannot match the opponents army strength (as their low dps just doesn't "rip off" too much of the opponent, while a marine, baneling, mine, hellion... is bound to get kills, even if it loses the battle)
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In my opinion anyone who thinks oracles are overpowered are clearly dimensional. 1 static defense (spore/cannon/turret) deters at least 3 oracles from attacking a mineral line. Sure oracles are great early on in PvT because they just destroy marines, but remember for the toss to make that oracle it costs him 300/300mins and gas. And if he wants to guarantee himself a lot of worker kills he will have to proxy it which costs mining time early, sacrifices scouting and you eventually lose the pylon. On TOP of that making oracles means that for the rest of the game you have spent at the very least 300/300 on useless tech that can't help you in mid-late game PvT, AT ALL! Sure envision is cool but it really is a niche ability that doesn't count for much.
You realise that if a protoss goes oracles he HAS to, HAS to kill at least 10 workers and some marines to make it worth it. If you kill just marines his economy is strong enough to do a mid game push with medivacs and kill you. If you kill only workers it means he can rush medivacs and just kill you.
Statistically oracles kill workers insanely fast yes, but when you look at the tech investment and how volatile they can be (true definition of glass cannon) its very very plain to see that they aren't overpowered.
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On April 08 2013 02:57 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 02:53 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:50 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:41 Fig wrote:On April 08 2013 02:24 SlixSC wrote:On April 08 2013 02:17 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 08 2013 01:58 SlixSC wrote:
Going back to oracles again.
I still think there is something inherently wrong with a unit that can fly, has 35% more dps than a banshee, more health and builds up to 20 seconds faster than a banshee too (edit: hell they even move much faster than banshees too)!
Oracles are pretty much banshees on crack and just breaking tvp early game for reasons mentioned earlier. Well, the banshee's main strength is its cloak but I do agree with you to a certain extent. Right now they may be too good but they are kind of balancing out the op stuff Terran has (mines/turbovacs) to a certain extent. For now Protoss seems to be doing decent vs Terran (better then Zerg anyway) so I don't think that matchup should be tinkered with too soon. Right, but you need a turret vs. oracles regardless so cloak wouldn't even make that much of a difference anyway. and in all other areas oracles are superior to banshees in every single regard. faster movement speed, deal more damage, more health, build much faster and have 2 additional spells on top of that which can be used defensively. Like I said, oracles are banshees on crack. The two units are conceptually identical, but oracles are just superior. I would be more than happy to have speed medivacs nerfed if they heavily nerf oracles aswell, the unit is simply too strong (especially when compared to all other harrassment units in the game) @ Fig: I would be more than happy to trade 2 banshees for 1 oracle, wouldn't you? Realistically, the fact that the unit has energy isn't much of a disadvantage at all( and so do banshees by the way, so I don't really get your point). It's not like I have ever seen an oracle run out of energy before having killed 15 scvs. You have to remember that the unit deals insane damage (35% more dps than a banshee), so it is very unlikely that an oracle runs out of energy before having done significant damage. Another point I want to address is your baseless assertion that banshees aren't used much because terran has better options. Well obviously, banshees at this point in time are the worst terran unit and absolutely useless in all matchups with maybe the exception of tvt. In TvZ zerg can now make spores without needing an evo chamber and in TvP protoss gets detection no matter what. They either have a robo or a stargate for oracles, they can scout with MSC and see banshees coming minutes in advance. Banshees are just absolutely useless (especially tvp, the combination of observer, nexus cannon or oracle, nexus cannon renders banshees obsolete) You have obviously never played with an Oracle. I would always take two Banshees over one Oracle. They can actually DPS down static defense, whereas Oracles cannot. Oracles only have more DPS that a Banshee against LIGHT units. I don't know what exactly you are doing, but your math must be way off. Oracle DPS vs. ground is 17.4 (+11.6 light), banshee DPS is 19.2 flat. Oracles have more health (100/60 vs. 140), so the strength of oracles and banshees vs. turrets is pretty much identical. Now if you are just going to ignore the actual stats of the units and rely on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) this discussion won't lead anywhere. I'm an evidentialist, it is very apparent to me that you are not. If you have a descartian rationalistic approach to things and think some things are just self-evident and don't require actual fact checking I'm sure you can have nice discussions... with yourself. We are done. I'm glad you agree Oracles and Banshees are pretty much identical, that was my whole point. Now are you going to explain how by your logic one can be obviously the worst Terran unit while the other is overpowered? How did you get that from what I just said? I refuted your argument that banshees are superior to oracles vs. static defense. However, banshees are vastly inferior to oracles in all other areas (damage, build time, movement speed and health). I already explained this once, I'm not going to do it again.
But you cannot compare 2 units and say 1 is imbalanced, it doesn't work like that unless its from the same race and takes the exact same role.
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