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On April 07 2013 09:23 Xequecal wrote:
I don't think Terran is overpowered in TvP based on winrate. The P allins are powerful and being "safe" against them puts you really far behind against economic builds. So Terran is going to drop a lot of games early and Protoss isn't. But I still think that once you reach the late game, and Terran has near perma-scan to know where you are at all times and can load up 6 medivacs without instantly dying to your army, you don't have much chance to win.
Static defense/templar and recall.You got what you need.
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In TvP, Terran is stuck in MMMVG tech path and all other tech paths are not good even the game goes into 1 hour long. There is no unit-composition transition at all from Terran and so the unit-composition diversity from Terran is basically non-existent.
This is not the case in all other matchups.
And making mech TvP viable is to open all these pathes.
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On April 07 2013 13:45 larse wrote:
In TvP, Terran is stuck in MMMVG tech path and all other tech paths are not good even the game goes into 1 hour long. There is no unit-composition transition at all from Terran and so the unit-composition diversity from Terran is basically non-existent.
This is not the case in all other matchups.
And making mech TvP viable is to open all these pathes.
HOTS gave protoss too many options to deal with terran mech, in giving terran mech viability they also slapped it down pretty hard with all the new toys protoss has.
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On April 07 2013 13:45 larse wrote:
In TvP, Terran is stuck in MMMVG tech path and all other tech paths are not good even the game goes into 1 hour long. There is no unit-composition transition at all from Terran and so the unit-composition diversity from Terran is basically non-existent.
This is not the case in all other matchups.
And making mech TvP viable is to open all these pathes.
I'm plat terran on NA and plat toss on EU and all i can say is that if you can pull off the raven transition you will put toss in a world of pain, just don't seeker the zealot (they drag splash onto the bio) but seeker everything whose name isn't zealot and watch toss rage, however, to successfully do this you need to take some sort of advatage or toss can just attack an kill you
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Northern Ireland26467 Posts
I'd be quite interested to see Terrans use their speedivacs for rapid deployment around the map, could be some potential in that rather than simply using them for dropping for the most part.
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On April 07 2013 13:54 DBS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 13:45 larse wrote:
In TvP, Terran is stuck in MMMVG tech path and all other tech paths are not good even the game goes into 1 hour long. There is no unit-composition transition at all from Terran and so the unit-composition diversity from Terran is basically non-existent.
This is not the case in all other matchups.
And making mech TvP viable is to open all these pathes. I'm plat terran on NA and plat toss on EU and all i can say is that if you can pull off the raven transition you will put toss in a world of pain, just don't seeker the zealot (they drag splash onto the bio) but seeker everything whose name isn't zealot and watch toss rage, however, to successfully do this you need to take some sort of advatage or toss can just attack an kill you
I don't mean plat. I mean professional plays. Nothing has been different from MMMVG in all offline events so far. HOTS is still MMMVG ever forever.
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Northern Ireland26467 Posts
There's nothing wrong with a lot of mech compositions, you just can't obtain them quickly enough, or replace them quickly enough. Protoss can transition to anti-mech Skytoss a bit too quickly as well.
You can't make mech 'work' in TvP without completely switching up a lot of other interrelated things, which can potentially ruin the game for months and months if it's done badly.
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On April 07 2013 08:59 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 08:52 Emzeeshady wrote:On April 07 2013 06:27 SlixSC wrote:On April 07 2013 06:20 Xequecal wrote:
Can someone tell me, what exactly is Protoss supposed to do against Terran doom drops (6+ medivacs filled with bio) in the lategame? Terran essentially gets to play muta/ling with these, making it completely impossible to ever take a fourth base while Terran expands over the whole map. Smaller drops can be deterred by a HT at each expo and main plus cannons, but when they show up with 8 medivacs, that expo is going to die. You can't base trade the Terran either because he can easily do irreparable damage and then boost all the bio back home before you can finish him off.
In WoL this was not good because if you ever caught the drop Terran would lose all 8 medivacs and all the units and the game, because there was no way to get away from blink stalkers other than hiding in deadspace, and it was easy to pin them there from that point. Now, he can run right into your army and even with blink stalkers he can just hit boost and run away, losing maybe 1 or 2 of them. Eventually he finds a hole and then it's stim down the nexus in 3 seconds and boost all the bio back home to hold off the allin and win the game.
I just played a game where my obs saw a doom drop heading to my fourth so I brought my whole army there, as soon as he saw it he hits his thrusters and goes directly for my third base. Two medivacs get blinked down but they move so fast he has plenty of time to unload, stim down the third base, (I have an HT there that storms them, he just sits in it and DPSes the nexus down while medivacs heal) load up, and boost away again before my army can slowboat back over there. It's ridiculous. He kills a base no matter where my army is or what I scout. There's no risk at all when you can just insta-load and boost away from anything I could conceivably have.
Smarter Terrans will just scan ahead of their doom drop. Oh, your army is there? Boost to another expansion, you can't catch up in time before the nexus dies. cannons and a couple HTS its impossible to drop for terran if protoss isnt bad tbh If you have cannons and HTs at every base and are still able to hold their main army then you must be either much better or ahead of your opponent. Actually, 2 HTS and 3 cannons per expo are more than enough to kill 4-6 medivacs without any problem whatsoever, that's 4 supply and you make it sound like your main army is somewhere in the middle of nowhere in which case you should work on your positioning in general. In my eyes protoss is heavily favored in TvP because of the amount of all-ins they can do and how greedy they can be in the early game, lategame protoss army seems stronger than terran anyway so dont even get me started. And let's be honest here, Protoss can't have such a hard time considering the fact that they are most represented race in GM worldwide with the best win rate. If anything Terran doesn't have many players in the higher leagues, so if you are implying that terran needs a nerf the only result you would effectively get are less terran players in the higher leagues, even less than there already are. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
Seriously? You still think Protoss has the advantage lategame? Are you kidding me... This was never true, and it never will be. Build more ghosts. Think you've built enough yet? Build 5 more. Seriously. Ghosts are disgusting units, they deal 100 AoE damage to all Protoss shields in the radius with ONE spell cast as well as drain 100 energy from my spell casters instantly, A 50 energy spell that is a guaranteed 2 shot on my high Templar. And they don't move as slow as a one-legged guy on crutches.
Yes obviously your example works in a magical fantasy world where medivacs have full energy and the cannons are in the exact right location to shoot the medivac. Too bad that never happens. Saying its only 4 supply is EXTREMELY misleading considering we're talking about having to defend the POTENTIAL of medivacs dropping units at that one specific location. The cost of that drop defense is 550/300. And I'm doing that at multiple locations. So your telling me I need to invest 550-300 at all my bases to protect from the POSSIBILITY of drops? Terran comes out ahead in that situation by simply not dropping...
It is extremely hard to follow your train of logic considering Terran and Zerg have won major tournaments in HOTS and Protoss has not. Just because your winrate sucks doesn't mean you actually understand the balance. The matchup has been the most balanced for months even at the end of Wings.
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I, too, think that there is a problem in the TvP matchup.
I just feel that the TvP lategame is problematic. As the game goes on, players get more bases and income. This will result in the protoss achieving pretty much the optimal deathball. As protoss, you want to make less gateway units, and more tier 3. Of course, there's only so much tier 3 you can afford in the early/mid game, but in lategame, there always just isn't such a limit.
Terran doesn't have these powerful units to use in TvP, like archons or collossi to mass when he has the resources for that. In WoL you could go mass BC in the very long matches, but with the new Void Rays, I don't think that would work anymore. Terran just has to stick with the MMM+viking/ghost all game, but I feel that it is optimized for the early/mid game and not so much for the lategame. MMM does just better when there's more gateway units and less tier 3.
Is it just that the terran has to constantly trade units with the protoss, so the protoss can't get his optimal army composition, or does terran have to kill the protoss in the early/mid game to have the best chances of winning? I think the matchup has been like this for a while, even in WoL, but now with the nexus cannon and mothership core, it is even easier for protoss to hold the early/mid game pushes terran can throw at him.
I haven't watched too many pro games lately, so it might not be so common/the meta at the moment, but in the ones I have seen, terrans tend to all in against protoss even more than before.
I think that TvP needs to really be reworked. Maybe making mech more viable would be an option? Tanks just seem to suck against protoss, as almost all of the protoss units counter them. Tanks in general suck in TvZ and TvP. Their only use is in all-ins and TvT.
Also @ Wingblade:
Please read the OP. This is a balance discussion thread, not a balance whine thread.
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Its really sad how pathetic the tank (and mech in general) is in TvZ. Blinding cloud owns them so hard and they are way to clunky and slow to properly spread in an actual engagement. The only time you can possibly spread is on defense. I wouldn't mind a nerf to the widow mine (if it needs nerfing at all), if they make mech viable once again in TvZ
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On April 07 2013 14:39 Yagopwn wrote:
I, too, think that there is a problem in the TvP matchup.
I just feel that the TvP lategame is problematic. As the game goes on, players get more bases and income. This will result in the protoss achieving pretty much the optimal deathball. As protoss, you want to make less gateway units, and more tier 3. Of course, there's only so much tier 3 you can afford in the early/mid game, but in lategame, there always just isn't such a limit.
Terran doesn't have these powerful units to use in TvP, like archons or collossi to mass when he has the resources for that. In WoL you could go mass BC in the very long matches, but with the new Void Rays, I don't think that would work anymore. Terran just has to stick with the MMM+viking/ghost all game, but I feel that it is optimized for the early/mid game and not so much for the lategame. MMM does just better when there's more gateway units and less tier 3.
Is it just that the terran has to constantly trade units with the protoss, so the protoss can't get his optimal army composition, or does terran have to kill the protoss in the early/mid game to have the best chances of winning? I think the matchup has been like this for a while, even in WoL, but now with the nexus cannon and mothership core, it is even easier for protoss to hold the early/mid game pushes terran can throw at him.
I haven't watched too many pro games lately, so it might not be so common/the meta at the moment, but in the ones I have seen, terrans tend to all in against protoss even more than before.
I think that TvP needs to really be reworked. Maybe making mech more viable would be an option? Tanks just seem to suck against protoss, as almost all of the protoss units counter them. Tanks in general suck in TvZ and TvP. Their only use is in all-ins and TvT.
Also @ Wingblade:
Please read the OP. This is a balance discussion thread, not a balance whine thread.
Define the difference between whine and discussion for me then please. The balance of the matchup has been, and will continue to be balanced. Protoss is strong early, Terran mid, Protoss early lategame before ghosts count is high in number and scvs are sacked, and then Terran generally has the advantage mega late game.
I even said the matchup was balanced at the end... Protoss has a lot of options early game now, we can be very greedy, or aggressive, and there can be a strong timing before Terran ghost count escalates.
I like how the person who disagrees with you is "whining".
The most recent TvP I can remember was the 2 sets of Bomber vs. Creator in GSL ro32. Bomber did an SCV pull timing repeatedly in the first series(not even an all-in, he had three OCs landed) but because he knew he had a guaranteed win at that exact moment because of Creators very predictable play. An SCV pull timing at that moment against colossus/double forge is very powerful, why let the game drag on when you know you have it now. That's why Creator kept all inning in the second set, he didn't want to play macro games against someone who knew him so well.
All in all that set is a perfect example of why the matchup is so balanced right now.
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On April 07 2013 15:08 Wingblade wrote:
The balance of the matchup has been, and will continue to be balanced. Protoss is strong early, Terran mid, Protoss early lategame before ghosts count is high in number and scvs are sacked, and then Terran generally has the advantage mega late game.
Do you realize that this ISNT BALANCED? If one race is "strong at time X" then the game is not balanced ... because there arent equal opportunities to win at any given time. This is a systematic problem of SC2 due to the production speed boosts which kick in at different times ...
A "balanced looking statistic" is not the same as a balanced game and the best example is the Broodlord-Infestor problem in WoL, where the "counter" to this was the overused "dont let them get there" strategy. Unitwise there isnt much you can do against Fungal plus path-blocking-Broodlings and especially for Terrans the Vikings are somewhat useless after they have killed off the Broodlords. Advantages at certain times are BAD because they usually mean that one race will have the advantage in the "end game" and especially there the chances should be equal!
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On April 07 2013 15:08 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:39 Yagopwn wrote:
I, too, think that there is a problem in the TvP matchup.
I just feel that the TvP lategame is problematic. As the game goes on, players get more bases and income. This will result in the protoss achieving pretty much the optimal deathball. As protoss, you want to make less gateway units, and more tier 3. Of course, there's only so much tier 3 you can afford in the early/mid game, but in lategame, there always just isn't such a limit.
Terran doesn't have these powerful units to use in TvP, like archons or collossi to mass when he has the resources for that. In WoL you could go mass BC in the very long matches, but with the new Void Rays, I don't think that would work anymore. Terran just has to stick with the MMM+viking/ghost all game, but I feel that it is optimized for the early/mid game and not so much for the lategame. MMM does just better when there's more gateway units and less tier 3.
Is it just that the terran has to constantly trade units with the protoss, so the protoss can't get his optimal army composition, or does terran have to kill the protoss in the early/mid game to have the best chances of winning? I think the matchup has been like this for a while, even in WoL, but now with the nexus cannon and mothership core, it is even easier for protoss to hold the early/mid game pushes terran can throw at him.
I haven't watched too many pro games lately, so it might not be so common/the meta at the moment, but in the ones I have seen, terrans tend to all in against protoss even more than before.
I think that TvP needs to really be reworked. Maybe making mech more viable would be an option? Tanks just seem to suck against protoss, as almost all of the protoss units counter them. Tanks in general suck in TvZ and TvP. Their only use is in all-ins and TvT.
Also @ Wingblade:
Please read the OP. This is a balance discussion thread, not a balance whine thread. Define the difference between whine and discussion for me then please. The balance of the matchup has been, and will continue to be balanced. Protoss is strong early, Terran mid, Protoss early lategame before ghosts count is high in number and scvs are sacked, and then Terran generally has the advantage mega late game. I even said the matchup was balanced at the end... Protoss has a lot of options early game now, we can be very greedy, or aggressive, and there can be a strong timing before Terran ghost count escalates. I like how the person who disagrees with you is "whining". The most recent TvP I can remember was the 2 sets of Bomber vs. Creator in GSL ro32. Bomber did an SCV pull timing repeatedly in the first series(not even an all-in, he had three OCs landed) but because he knew he had a guaranteed win at that exact moment because of Creators very predictable play. An SCV pull timing at that moment against colossus/double forge is very powerful, why let the game drag on when you know you have it now. That's why Creator kept all inning in the second set, he didn't want to play macro games against someone who knew him so well. All in all that set is a perfect example of why the matchup is so balanced right now.
Sorry if I was too harsh, but to me your earlier post was pretty much this:
"Ghost op because of emp and snipe, terran drops op"
Rather than simply claiming they are op, maybe you could go more into detail, why? What makes them op? There are ways to deal with ghosts and drops. Do you feel that those ways are too weak? Put the protoss in disadvantage? What are the current methods to deal with them, and why are they not working well enough?
Also, you could maybe offer solutions. How could these problems be fixed? Should they, for example, buff feedbacks range?
That is why I considered your earlier post more balance whining. This post is already better. For example, you told that you think terran has advantage in lategame because they get a bigger army due to being able to sac SCV's. In short, you told why you think the lategame is balanced, and gave reasons for it. In your earlier post you didn't. Can you see the difference?
Of course, this is just my opinion about balance discussion and of the instructions given in the first post. I'm not the one to decide, but isn't a discussion with reasoning and maybe offering solutions better than just saying something is op?
Sorry for going a bit off-topic here.
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On April 07 2013 14:10 Wombat_NI wrote:
There's nothing wrong with a lot of mech compositions, you just can't obtain them quickly enough, or replace them quickly enough. Protoss can transition to anti-mech Skytoss a bit too quickly as well.
You can't make mech 'work' in TvP without completely switching up a lot of other interrelated things, which can potentially ruin the game for months and months if it's done badly.
Same issues with nydus worms, where it just takes too long to unload which counteracts the speed of the mobilization. That's not to say it wouldn't save time at all, but the few seconds it saves aren't as important, especially with the trade-off of vulnerability.
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I just can't wrap my head around why Protoss needed a range 15 air unit that hits ground and air and deals bonus dmg to massive. Were they having problems with something I didn't know about? I always thought vikings had excellent range but now it's like I have to take hits on both my ground and air army just to get in range of Tempests. Really no way to deal with them in tough situations where you don't have enough to advance, which makes defending completely a one sided affair. It would be one thing if they had a designed disadvantage like the siege tank ( siege mode ), but they really don't. Why do we need more mindless units for protoss? Terran has a few kind of, like the Thor, but at least its massive as heck and can get in the way of other things so it has some needed planning and or micro involved.
Blizzard needs to think a little deeper about a few of these units. I'm just not happy with the way Protoss units are designed in this game... I don't think I can preach the Reaver coming back more ( replacing other units ).
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On April 07 2013 15:27 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:08 Wingblade wrote:
The balance of the matchup has been, and will continue to be balanced. Protoss is strong early, Terran mid, Protoss early lategame before ghosts count is high in number and scvs are sacked, and then Terran generally has the advantage mega late game. Do you realize that this ISNT BALANCED? If one race is "strong at time X" then the game is not balanced ... because there arent equal opportunities to win at any given time. This is a systematic problem of SC2 due to the production speed boosts which kick in at different times ... A "balanced looking statistic" is not the same as a balanced game and the best example is the Broodlord-Infestor problem in WoL, where the "counter" to this was the overused "dont let them get there" strategy. Unitwise there isnt much you can do against Fungal plus path-blocking-Broodlings and especially for Terrans the Vikings are somewhat useless after they have killed off the Broodlords. Advantages at certain times are BAD because they usually mean that one race will have the advantage in the "end game" and especially there the chances should be equal!
no that's just wrong. if race a is better at time x then that race better use time x to gain an advantage. then its up to race b to use their strength in time y to even the game out/take an advantage themselves etc.
now let's look at what the game would be like if both races would be equally strong at every time of the game:
they would either turtle hard or do cheese builds. doing anything else would put you at a disadvantage.
what's important however is that lategame should have a reasonable chance for both races to win. it's fine if one race is a little favored but they shouldn't automatically win once they reach lategame. here is where people will probably disagree with me: i don't think there should be unbeatable unit compositions that the only proper response to is 'kill him before he gets it'. i just think it's silly. even broodlord infestor in wol could theoretically be beaten but for some other compositions that's just not the case (I'M NOT SAYING THAT THEY'RE BETTER THAN BL INFESTOR! the reason that was so good is because it was easy to get and there were smooth and safe transitions from standard openings.)
im talking compositions you can't trade units against and widdle down but that will just trade to nothing. proper protoss deathball / raven based armies. that kind of thing.
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On April 07 2013 14:04 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 13:54 DBS wrote:On April 07 2013 13:45 larse wrote:
In TvP, Terran is stuck in MMMVG tech path and all other tech paths are not good even the game goes into 1 hour long. There is no unit-composition transition at all from Terran and so the unit-composition diversity from Terran is basically non-existent.
This is not the case in all other matchups.
And making mech TvP viable is to open all these pathes. I'm plat terran on NA and plat toss on EU and all i can say is that if you can pull off the raven transition you will put toss in a world of pain, just don't seeker the zealot (they drag splash onto the bio) but seeker everything whose name isn't zealot and watch toss rage, however, to successfully do this you need to take some sort of advatage or toss can just attack an kill you I don't mean plat. I mean professional plays. Nothing has been different from MMMVG in all offline events so far. HOTS is still MMMVG ever forever.
+ hellbats
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On April 07 2013 17:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 14:04 larse wrote:On April 07 2013 13:54 DBS wrote:On April 07 2013 13:45 larse wrote:
In TvP, Terran is stuck in MMMVG tech path and all other tech paths are not good even the game goes into 1 hour long. There is no unit-composition transition at all from Terran and so the unit-composition diversity from Terran is basically non-existent.
This is not the case in all other matchups.
And making mech TvP viable is to open all these pathes. I'm plat terran on NA and plat toss on EU and all i can say is that if you can pull off the raven transition you will put toss in a world of pain, just don't seeker the zealot (they drag splash onto the bio) but seeker everything whose name isn't zealot and watch toss rage, however, to successfully do this you need to take some sort of advatage or toss can just attack an kill you I don't mean plat. I mean professional plays. Nothing has been different from MMMVG in all offline events so far. HOTS is still MMMVG ever forever. + hellbats
Hellbats have been strangely absent.
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On April 07 2013 17:04 wswas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 15:27 Rabiator wrote:On April 07 2013 15:08 Wingblade wrote:
The balance of the matchup has been, and will continue to be balanced. Protoss is strong early, Terran mid, Protoss early lategame before ghosts count is high in number and scvs are sacked, and then Terran generally has the advantage mega late game. Do you realize that this ISNT BALANCED? If one race is "strong at time X" then the game is not balanced ... because there arent equal opportunities to win at any given time. This is a systematic problem of SC2 due to the production speed boosts which kick in at different times ... A "balanced looking statistic" is not the same as a balanced game and the best example is the Broodlord-Infestor problem in WoL, where the "counter" to this was the overused "dont let them get there" strategy. Unitwise there isnt much you can do against Fungal plus path-blocking-Broodlings and especially for Terrans the Vikings are somewhat useless after they have killed off the Broodlords. Advantages at certain times are BAD because they usually mean that one race will have the advantage in the "end game" and especially there the chances should be equal! no that's just wrong. if race a is better at time x then that race better use time x to gain an advantage. then its up to race b to use their strength in time y to even the game out/take an advantage themselves etc.
The whole problem of "race X is strong FIRST" is that it leads into "don't let them get there strategies" which might not allow the other race to reach their strong time. This is TERRIBLE but it is a core of the design and balancing process of SC2 ...
All races need to be equally strong (or weak) at the same time and the only difference allowed should be coming from economic decisions of when people start to build an army. If you play too greedy and the opponent doesn't then you deserve to lose. The mechanics of Warp Gate and Inject Larvae (of the first possible Queen) and MULE (of the first Orbital) give specific timings which boost the power of their respective race for that time. This impacts at different times and is rather terribly designed. The game would be better off without all of them ... (and a few more stuff) because it would be easier to control and balance.
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I don't know what that guy is saying....you can't be serious in saying that PvT lategame is Terran favored and always has been. PvT lategame was one of the biggest sources of complains from Terrans until BL/Infestor overshadowed everything. The difficulty in dealing/controlling well versus the maxed out and heavily upgraded Protoss army has always been high. That's why Terran has to do damage midgame, as they don't have the advantage early and lategame. Only the superlategame, with split map and mass Ghost+Vikings+Orbitals do they regain the advantage.
Also I agree with Rabiator, Blizzard's asymmetrical balance is pretty bad because the amount of skewing at certain points of the game were huge. I'm actually in favor of removing things like Warpgate,Injects, Mules, and while we're at it, remove uninteresting, low skill ceiling, and deathball units.
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EPT
