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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 424

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 422 423 424 425 426 1266 Next
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2147 Posts
April 06 2013 16:43 GMT
#8461
Appreciate this thread. God job.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 16:56 GMT
#8462
--- Nuked ---
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
April 06 2013 17:00 GMT
#8463
On April 07 2013 01:56 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 01:43 Bagi wrote:
On April 07 2013 01:29 Emzeeshady wrote:
On April 07 2013 01:20 larse wrote:
Buffing tank is such an obvious change that should be there now. It's basically not used except tvt. I don't know why the balance team is such anti tank.

This is not because tanks are bad (they are quite good vs Zerg until Vipers). It is because Mines are too good.

I would prefer a mine nerf to a tank buff.

"Until Vipers", gee what a big window of opportunity! Should we go back to 2-base tank pushes that get owned by pure ling?

I don't think you understand the situation, even a nerfed widow mine would be way superior to tanks due to the added counters for them in HOTS.

Vipers are hive tech if u didn't know.

Which means they come out at the 14-15 minute mark, fast enough to counter any standard 3base marine/tank WOL style timings. "If u didn't know."
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 17:03 GMT
#8464
--- Nuked ---
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 17:09:58
April 06 2013 17:08 GMT
#8465
A tank-based timing push on 2 bases is an outdated all-in that simply does not work in the current meta and map pool. On 3 bases it comes too late.

What is this "something better" that you speak of? Assuming I go bio upgrades and vehicle weapons WOL-style, what magical transition can I do that isn't bio/mine? Because obviously mines need to be nerfed and tanks can take their place just fine.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 17:18 GMT
#8466
--- Nuked ---
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
April 06 2013 17:22 GMT
#8467
On April 07 2013 02:18 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 02:08 Bagi wrote:
A tank-based timing push on 2 bases is an outdated all-in that simply does not work in the current meta and map pool. On 3 bases it comes too late.

What is this "something better" that you speak of? Assuming I go bio upgrades and vehicle weapons WOL-style, what magical transition can I do that isn't bio/mine? Because obviously mines need to be nerfed and tanks can take their place just fine.

I am sorry I meant you DONT have to do an all in.

As for something better I was thinking of sky terran but you can also transition to bio/mine (which is useful all fucking game now) if he overcommits to vipers.

Lol "skyterran." As if that's an actual legitimate strategy. Let me know when those diamond league GSLs are happening.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 17:27 GMT
#8468
--- Nuked ---
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 17:31:01
April 06 2013 17:30 GMT
#8469
On April 07 2013 02:18 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 02:08 Bagi wrote:
A tank-based timing push on 2 bases is an outdated all-in that simply does not work in the current meta and map pool. On 3 bases it comes too late.

What is this "something better" that you speak of? Assuming I go bio upgrades and vehicle weapons WOL-style, what magical transition can I do that isn't bio/mine? Because obviously mines need to be nerfed and tanks can take their place just fine.

I am sorry I meant you DONT have to do an all in.

As for something better I was thinking of sky terran but you can also transition to bio/mine (which is useful all fucking game now) if he overcommits to vipers.

You DO have to do an all in if you want to attack that early with tanks. That's just how the unit works, its expensive and you have to get a critical mass of them if you want to stand a chance against any kind of zerg ground army. It's not only an all-in, its a really weak one.

So now that we've established that tank all-ins suck ass and that tanks suck ass in general once vipers are out, what is left for the unit? They can work with turtle mech with a gazillion turrets but with bio mines are infinitely better support all game long. Going mines early makes for good defense but also allows the terran to plain aggressive from the start, due to how cheap yet mobile mines are.

You saying "tanks are fine, mines need nerfing" is just plain wrong. Mines may be too strong, but tanks are absolutely not "fine" and they will continue to suck and go unused even if you nerf the mine.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 17:33 GMT
#8470
--- Nuked ---
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
April 06 2013 17:35 GMT
#8471
Unfortunately, my brothers, one thing I can honestly never see the balance team do, is buff tanks. I think they honestly believe the unit makes for "boring" games, and are happy that it sees less and less play. As can be seen with them trying to "fix" TvT - by far the best WoL matchup, by adding Warhounds as a counter to Tanks. I would be shocked if they abandon this stupidity anytime soon.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
wswas
Profile Joined April 2013
16 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 17:37:28
April 06 2013 17:35 GMT
#8472
you make it seem like once 1 viper is out all tanks terran has die immediately. this is simply not the case.
i'm not tellling anyone to build tanks i'm just saying tanks are good vs zerg. vipers are a way softer counter to tanks than broodlords.
people just don't make them anymore ever since mines made tanks completely unnecessary. that doesn't mean that tanks would be useless if mines weren't so op beyond belief.

to the guy saying they have a cooldown:
so fucking what. in large enough numbers they will obliterate anything that comes close. also you can't set them off reliably because the long 'lockon time' makes it easy for the bio ball to kill the units which would set them off.
one way around this is to use infested terrans and swarm hosts. both of those would be needed in large numbers or you will run into the same problem as before. having them in large numbers is a significant investment in both money but more importantly in supply to counter 75/25. and it doesn't even work all that well plus makes you more susceptible to drops.

there is no time where zerg can dictate the flow of the game other than weird allins that abuse greedy play. also terran now is stronger in every single phase of the game. even lategame zerg can't keep up with the new ravens. now if mines weren't so silly then it would be much more difficult for terran to set up for lategame because you couldn't just make 75/25 and mmm all game but would actually have to spend their cash on fighting units instead of making 5 ocs and still having the better army.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-06 17:38:04
April 06 2013 17:37 GMT
#8473
--- Nuked ---
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
April 06 2013 17:42 GMT
#8474
On April 07 2013 02:37 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 02:35 Toadvine wrote:
Unfortunately, my brothers, one thing I can honestly never see the balance team do, is buff tanks. I think they honestly believe the unit makes for "boring" games, and are happy that it sees less and less play. As can be seen with them trying to "fix" TvT - by far the best WoL matchup, by adding Warhounds as a counter to Tanks. I would be shocked if they abandon this stupidity anytime soon.

I would say in terms of excitement. Bio > tank centric styles

although variety is nice.

They're exciting in different ways - micro vs strategy/positioning.
vibeo gane,
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
April 06 2013 17:46 GMT
#8475
On April 07 2013 02:33 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 02:30 Bagi wrote:
On April 07 2013 02:18 Emzeeshady wrote:
On April 07 2013 02:08 Bagi wrote:
A tank-based timing push on 2 bases is an outdated all-in that simply does not work in the current meta and map pool. On 3 bases it comes too late.

What is this "something better" that you speak of? Assuming I go bio upgrades and vehicle weapons WOL-style, what magical transition can I do that isn't bio/mine? Because obviously mines need to be nerfed and tanks can take their place just fine.

I am sorry I meant you DONT have to do an all in.

As for something better I was thinking of sky terran but you can also transition to bio/mine (which is useful all fucking game now) if he overcommits to vipers.

You DO have to do an all in if you want to attack that early with tanks. That's just how the unit works, its expensive and you have to get a critical mass of them if you want to stand a chance against any kind of zerg ground army. It's not only an all-in, its a really weak one.

So now that we've established that tank all-ins suck ass and that tanks suck ass in general once vipers are out, what is left for the unit? They can work with turtle mech with a gazillion turrets but with bio mines are infinitely better support all game long. Going mines early makes for good defense but also allows the terran to plain aggressive from the start, due to how cheap yet mobile mines are.

You saying "tanks are fine, mines need nerfing" is just plain wrong. Mines may be too strong, but tanks are absolutely not "fine" and they will continue to suck and go unused even if you nerf the mine.

Why do you want to attack with them. Just defend with them while dropping and secure more bases while transitioning to a more bio/sky centric army. You seem to think this is WOL. You don't have a timer on you as Terran anymore. You CAN play for the late game.

Or maybe I'll just make units that don't suck and are capable of both defending and attacking? The ability to move out and punish your opponent is a dozen times more important than a slightly more powerful defensive position. It's not like unupgraded tanks make for that strong defense in the first place.

Face it, the unit makes for shitty support in its current form. Also saying that the tank is fine as a pure defensive tool where you build a few of them tarnishes the legacy of the BW tank.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 17:47 GMT
#8476
--- Nuked ---
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 17:49 GMT
#8477
--- Nuked ---
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
April 06 2013 17:54 GMT
#8478
That and the fact that tanks have no proper role at any point of the game, which you haven't been able to argue against at all.

I guess I shouldn't waste my time, because it was clear from the first post that you just want terran nerfed.
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
April 06 2013 18:03 GMT
#8479
--- Nuked ---
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
April 06 2013 18:22 GMT
#8480
On April 07 2013 03:03 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 07 2013 02:54 Bagi wrote:
That and the fact that tanks have no proper role at any point of the game, which you haven't been able to argue against at all.

I guess I shouldn't waste my time, because it was clear from the first post that you just want terran nerfed.

It is hard to argue versus you because you have no proof in which to argue against. You just say the tank is bad in every way.

As for wanting Terran nerfed I just would really like a mine nerd. Turbo medivacs could maybe use a tweak but I would be very happy with just the mines getting looked at.

Like I said before though Void Rays should be top priority.

Funny how the key things that should be nerfed for Terran are pretty much the only new things Terrans are using in HotS. You want the race to go back to the end of WoL, even though that was a VERY bad time for the race.

And we have proof from WoL about tanks. Two base timings went out of style with the larger maps, 14-15 minute hives became standard, and banshees proved to be more effective at defense than tanks leading up to 3 base.
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