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On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:
- Siege Tanks in SC2 were "balanced" on Steppes of War .......are you serious? i don't even know what to respond to that. tanks aren't too weak. it's just that widow mines are so broken that they're better at what tanks are supposed to do even though that wasn't meant to be their purpose.
1. Do you deny that Siege Tanks were balanced on Steppes of War and never were "readjusted" because of larger and larger maps?
2. Do you deny that SC2 is about the "dance of two army blobs around each other" and that the Siege Tank is designed for static play which is the exact opposite of this playstyle?
It is terribly obvious that the Siege Tank cant really do its job because of this ...
The Siege Tank has been too weak all the time in WoL and isnt only too weak in comparison to the Widow Mine, which isnt a unit to use as part of an army due to the once-in-a-blue-moon rate of fire and the near-inability to target it. Just look at how it was in WoL and you see even very dense Tank lines easily being overrun by lots of stuff ... which shouldnt happen.
On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:
(also, the game would be MUCH better without mule warpgate chrono boost spawn larvae but we all know that ain't gonna happen)
It is absolutely obvious that the super high unit density is the cause for many balancing problems and the reason for many terrible abilities in the game. If we "give up" and dont ask for its removal we have already lost the fight, but if more and more people ask for it then Blizzard HAS TO LISTEN. So keep on asking for it ...
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Widow mines stops being a ''broken'' unit when people actually get used to them being in the game and learn to expect and deal with them.
I am still waiting for people to scout ahead with a few units to see that there are no mines placed in the path you plan to move to with your army.
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On April 06 2013 22:52 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:On April 06 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:
- Siege Tanks in SC2 were "balanced" on Steppes of War .......are you serious? i don't even know what to respond to that. tanks aren't too weak. it's just that widow mines are so broken that they're better at what tanks are supposed to do even though that wasn't meant to be their purpose. 1. Do you deny that Siege Tanks were balanced on Steppes of War and never were "readjusted" because of larger and larger maps? 2. Do you deny that SC2 is about the "dance of two army blobs around each other" and that the Siege Tank is designed for static play which is the exact opposite of this playstyle? It is terribly obvious that the Siege Tank cant really do its job because of this ... The Siege Tank has been too weak all the time in WoL and isnt only too weak in comparison to the Widow Mine, which isnt a unit to use as part of an army due to the once-in-a-blue-moon rate of fire and the near-inability to target it. Just look at how it was in WoL and you see even very dense Tank lines easily being overrun by lots of stuff ... which shouldnt happen. Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:
(also, the game would be MUCH better without mule warpgate chrono boost spawn larvae but we all know that ain't gonna happen) It is absolutely obvious that the super high unit density is the cause for many balancing problems and the reason for many terrible abilities in the game. If we "give up" and dont ask for its removal we have already lost the fight, but if more and more people ask for it then Blizzard HAS TO LISTEN. So keep on asking for it ...
Lol... One of the reasons Steppes of War was a terrible map was that Siege Tanks were utterly overpowered. They werent balanced on Steppes. They were completly broken...
And about the notion that units "got balanced" for certain maps... Those maps are not being played anymore due to imbalances.
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One idea to buff Siege Mode that I had is to make less of the attack +armored but keep the overall damage the same. Not sure how this would change the "hits to kill" charts, if at all, but doing something like this would be in the right direction:
Siege Tank
Siege mode damage changed from 35 (+15 armored) to 40 (+10 armored).
Upgrade damage changed from +3 (+2 armored) to +4 (+1 armored).
You could also just take the same idea with HotS Ultralisks and make them flat damage again. That would encourage more tank play. Yes, they'd be strong. Would they be overpowered? I'm not so sure - maps are way different than early WoL days where they just were.
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On April 06 2013 23:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 22:52 Rabiator wrote:On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:On April 06 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:
- Siege Tanks in SC2 were "balanced" on Steppes of War .......are you serious? i don't even know what to respond to that. tanks aren't too weak. it's just that widow mines are so broken that they're better at what tanks are supposed to do even though that wasn't meant to be their purpose. 1. Do you deny that Siege Tanks were balanced on Steppes of War and never were "readjusted" because of larger and larger maps? 2. Do you deny that SC2 is about the "dance of two army blobs around each other" and that the Siege Tank is designed for static play which is the exact opposite of this playstyle? It is terribly obvious that the Siege Tank cant really do its job because of this ... The Siege Tank has been too weak all the time in WoL and isnt only too weak in comparison to the Widow Mine, which isnt a unit to use as part of an army due to the once-in-a-blue-moon rate of fire and the near-inability to target it. Just look at how it was in WoL and you see even very dense Tank lines easily being overrun by lots of stuff ... which shouldnt happen. On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:
(also, the game would be MUCH better without mule warpgate chrono boost spawn larvae but we all know that ain't gonna happen) It is absolutely obvious that the super high unit density is the cause for many balancing problems and the reason for many terrible abilities in the game. If we "give up" and dont ask for its removal we have already lost the fight, but if more and more people ask for it then Blizzard HAS TO LISTEN. So keep on asking for it ... Lol... One of the reasons Steppes of War was a terrible map was that Siege Tanks were utterly overpowered. They werent balanced on Steppes. They were completly broken... And about the notion that units "got balanced" for certain maps... Those maps are not being played anymore due to imbalances.
Siege Tanks were even more powerful in the beginning at 60 damage and it was this "OP on Steppes of War" which required those changes. A Siege Tank with 60 damage is far more powerful than one with "35+15 vs armored" and this all happened during the WoL beta time because they were ridiculously OP on Steppes of War with that damage.
Thanks for pointing out that Steppes of War isnt played anymore - which kinda was the point I was making - since the high damage Siege Tank was clearly OP on such a tiny map (because you could control all of it with the Tanks without moving much). Blizzard nevertheless TRIED TO BALANCE around those tiny/small maps we had in the beginning and we are left with the consequences now; Steppes of War was just given as the most radical and obvious example.
The Siege Tank is a unit which has a downside of being a rather slow unit and this disadvantage is more and more important in bigger and bigger maps. For other units there was usually a change of mobility, but for the immobile Siege Tank this doesnt work and the only real options are increased damage or reduced supply cost.
On April 06 2013 23:03 Arco wrote:
One idea to buff Siege Mode that I had is to make less of the attack +armored but keep the overall damage the same. Not sure how this would change the "hits to kill" charts, if at all, but doing something like this would be in the right direction.
Getting rid of the bonus damage would be a good decision since the damage is also reduced because of the splash already, which means that non-armored units in the outermost splash radius take a whoooping 9 damage ... which is ridiculously low for such a slow rate of fire.
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Yeah and throughout all of 2011 and 2012 they patched the game with maps like taldarim altar or whirlwind or Tempest. ot once the second most important unit of TvZ and TvT was considered underpowered in those matchups. So stop arguing as if they were. Their only real problem is TvP and maybe blinding cloud now in HotS.
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On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:
- Siege Tanks in SC2 were "balanced" on Steppes of War .......are you serious? i don't even know what to respond to that.
That's because you read it wrong. Balanced is a verb in that sentence, not an adjective.
fix widow mines. it shouldn't be possible to use them as a core army unit that sets up in 1 sc2 sec, has 0 attack priority, deals over 100 dmg to the main target and deals 40 splash dmg in a large area of effect. and all that for the price of a roach. just say it out loud. it's pretty obvious this unit is overpowered. (just as saying out loud what the old infestor was capable of made it obvious that that unit was overpowered.)
You seem to be very conveniently forgetting that this same unit that costs the same as a roach can also only fire once every 40 seconds. Think about that for half a second and you'll realize that the comparison is a bad one.
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Really pains me to see tanks being so rarely used vs zerg now. Seeing mines blow up groups of banelings is pretty fun, as well as seeing the zergs rage about them, but i'll probably get bored of it soon. I loved Marine/tank play vs zerg 
I think they're a little too weak, but if they were buffed, obviously other adjustments would need to be made to terran.
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Problem with mines isn't when there's a couple at a choke or whatever, better zergs know to scout ahead with changelings / small zergling packs. The problem is when there are 6-10+ brought with an army, especially with drill upgrade. Terran can drill in an instant and the zerg have almost no response to them and it literally becomes impossible to attack the terran army -- army kills any small packs before they can trigger mines, and sending more than that means suiciding ridiculous chunks of supply before even having to deal with the rest of the army.
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the most stupid thing regarding zerg right now are basically 2 things:
- zerg can never ever get aggressive before lair (mines + free siege mode and unbreakable FFE or gateway expand with planetary nexus) which leads to very boring games for the zerg side and insane greediness on the T/P side
- zerg still needs to rush hive because roach hydra sucks insanely without vipers. nydus/ovidrop/burrowed roaches etc. are completely shit.
those 2 things need to be fixed. make burrow cheaper and lesser time required and buff hydras, nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement SLIGHTLY! no big imbalances just little ones. really hope they dont nerf voids or mines but just finally buff early and midgame Z now that lategame Z isnt OP anymore (even worse than T/P now)
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On April 06 2013 23:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2013 22:52 Rabiator wrote:On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:On April 06 2013 16:13 Rabiator wrote:
- Siege Tanks in SC2 were "balanced" on Steppes of War .......are you serious? i don't even know what to respond to that. tanks aren't too weak. it's just that widow mines are so broken that they're better at what tanks are supposed to do even though that wasn't meant to be their purpose. 1. Do you deny that Siege Tanks were balanced on Steppes of War and never were "readjusted" because of larger and larger maps? 2. Do you deny that SC2 is about the "dance of two army blobs around each other" and that the Siege Tank is designed for static play which is the exact opposite of this playstyle? It is terribly obvious that the Siege Tank cant really do its job because of this ... The Siege Tank has been too weak all the time in WoL and isnt only too weak in comparison to the Widow Mine, which isnt a unit to use as part of an army due to the once-in-a-blue-moon rate of fire and the near-inability to target it. Just look at how it was in WoL and you see even very dense Tank lines easily being overrun by lots of stuff ... which shouldnt happen. On April 06 2013 20:58 wswas wrote:
(also, the game would be MUCH better without mule warpgate chrono boost spawn larvae but we all know that ain't gonna happen) It is absolutely obvious that the super high unit density is the cause for many balancing problems and the reason for many terrible abilities in the game. If we "give up" and dont ask for its removal we have already lost the fight, but if more and more people ask for it then Blizzard HAS TO LISTEN. So keep on asking for it ... Lol... One of the reasons Steppes of War was a terrible map was that Siege Tanks were utterly overpowered. They werent balanced on Steppes. They were completly broken... And about the notion that units "got balanced" for certain maps... Those maps are not being played anymore due to imbalances.
I think maps have always been sensitive to abusive siege tank placements. And despite being very conscious about it due to the strength of the unit in Brood War, it also occurred in Starcraft 2. I think map makers have a good handle on it by now however.
The strength of certain units fluctuates heavily depending on the maps, but unfortunately this is usually only obvious in retrospect. It's not always possible (nor desirable) to design or balance units in such a way that they are not affected by map layouts, so the approach has to be to monitor the maps to look for signs of such imbalance. In this respect it's a clear failure that Daybreak is still in the map pool, since there are enough indications that it's problematic for various forms of mass air or mass swarm host play.
A few other units that are impacted a lot by map design are the swarm host and several forms of air harass such as the medivac. Look for this in the future: swarm host pushes will be too powerful on some maps, and it's going to lead to either adjusted maps or a nerf to the unit. I think both options are not always desirable.
I don't think it's too bad to have maps especially conductive to specific units or play styles, it increases variety, but at the likely cost of balance. I think it's somewhat similar to how proleague can get away with imbalanced maps, if you have a Bo7 series it's not a bad thing for one map to be favored for one race, as long as there is another map where the reverse is the case.
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On April 07 2013 00:12 Decendos wrote:
the most stupid thing regarding zerg right now are basically 2 things:
- zerg can never ever get aggressive before lair (mines + free siege mode and unbreakable FFE or gateway expand with planetary nexus) which leads to very boring games for the zerg side and insane greediness on the T/P side
- zerg still needs to rush hive because roach hydra sucks insanely without vipers. nydus/ovidrop/burrowed roaches etc. are completely shit.
those 2 things need to be fixed. make burrow cheaper and lesser time required and buff hydras, nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement SLIGHTLY! no big imbalances just little ones. really hope they dont nerf voids or mines but just finally buff early and midgame Z now that lategame Z isnt OP anymore (even worse than T/P now)
I dont think mines are THAT good defensively, they need some figuring out, but if you manage to bait a mine or two you are in an incredibly good situation.
As a masters terran I can tell you that a mine or two don't make me feel safe at all, and if I deploy them defensively I have no way to pressure the zerg into not taking three bases for free.
I do however agree that mines seem a bit strong, but I don't think that is because of early game defense at all.
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On April 07 2013 00:12 Decendos wrote:
the most stupid thing regarding zerg right now are basically 2 things:
- zerg can never ever get aggressive before lair (mines + free siege mode and unbreakable FFE or gateway expand with planetary nexus) which leads to very boring games for the zerg side and insane greediness on the T/P side
- zerg still needs to rush hive because roach hydra sucks insanely without vipers. nydus/ovidrop/burrowed roaches etc. are completely shit.
those 2 things need to be fixed. make burrow cheaper and lesser time required and buff hydras, nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement SLIGHTLY! no big imbalances just little ones. really hope they dont nerf voids or mines but just finally buff early and midgame Z now that lategame Z isnt OP anymore (even worse than T/P now)
Keep livin' in that dreamworld where Zerg has to rush to hive and is unable to play aggressively.
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On April 07 2013 00:20 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 00:12 Decendos wrote:
the most stupid thing regarding zerg right now are basically 2 things:
- zerg can never ever get aggressive before lair (mines + free siege mode and unbreakable FFE or gateway expand with planetary nexus) which leads to very boring games for the zerg side and insane greediness on the T/P side
- zerg still needs to rush hive because roach hydra sucks insanely without vipers. nydus/ovidrop/burrowed roaches etc. are completely shit.
those 2 things need to be fixed. make burrow cheaper and lesser time required and buff hydras, nydus, ovidrop and burrowmovement SLIGHTLY! no big imbalances just little ones. really hope they dont nerf voids or mines but just finally buff early and midgame Z now that lategame Z isnt OP anymore (even worse than T/P now) I dont think mines are THAT good defensively, they need some figuring out, but if you manage to bait a mine or two you are in an incredibly good situation. As a masters terran I can tell you that a mine or two don't make me feel safe at all, and if I deploy them defensively I have no way to pressure the zerg into not taking three bases for free. I do however agree that mines seem a bit strong, but I don't think that is because of early game defense at all.
well agree that 1 mine does nothing. but with the new reaper it is very easy to scout for T so basically you will always have 4 mines once the roach or roach ling or roach bling attack hits (if you play a standard reaper into factory build).
and in zvp its the same thing...vs FFE you cant attack ever before lair (if P isnt really bad) and vs gate into MSC its also basically impossible.
early game attacks and all ins should and NEED to be possible for Z. obv they need to be defendable but right now especially P can defend them without any scouting which is beyond stupid.
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Buffing tank is such an obvious change that should be there now. It's basically not used except tvt. I don't know why the balance team is such anti tank.
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On April 07 2013 01:20 larse wrote:
Buffing tank is such an obvious change that should be there now. It's basically not used except tvt. I don't know why the balance team is such anti tank.
The only reason I can think of is that the balance team (and some low level scrubs who cry on the battle.net forums) hate the "tank lines" in TvT.
Remember how the warhound was supposed to solve the "problem" of tanks dominating TvT?
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Honestly tanks have their place. They are still good against all ground zerg units before vipers and you can deny vipers with vikings. They have a niche against protoss for defensive builds and timing pushes (or mech but im not a huge fan of that agaisnt toss). They are really strong in TvT especially with mech attack upgrades but they can be beaten with good positioning and good bio play.
Tanks are weaker than they have ever been right after Zerg makes the hive switch however they have always somewhat fallen off in value once Z can get their tank busting units like broodlords (ultras also but thats more situational because tanks can still do well against them).
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On April 07 2013 01:29 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 01:20 larse wrote:
Buffing tank is such an obvious change that should be there now. It's basically not used except tvt. I don't know why the balance team is such anti tank. This is not because tanks are bad (they are quite good vs Zerg until Vipers). It is because Mines are too good. I would prefer a mine nerf to a tank buff.
Tanks are fine in midgame tvz to snipe infestor or banelings however they are trash in lategame tvz against any high tech zerg unit such as ultralisk, broodlord or viper. Taking skyterran aside bio terrans have hard time to win direct fight with zerg in lategame. That's why they go for MMMM and drop shit out of them and in this case Mines are better then tanks.
In tvp apart from some great players in GM I havent seen any pro use it with success.
So nerfing mines wont bring tanks back.
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On April 07 2013 01:29 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 01:20 larse wrote:
Buffing tank is such an obvious change that should be there now. It's basically not used except tvt. I don't know why the balance team is such anti tank. This is not because tanks are bad (they are quite good vs Zerg until Vipers). It is because Mines are too good. I would prefer a mine nerf to a tank buff.
"Until Vipers", gee what a big window of opportunity! Should we go back to 2-base tank pushes that get owned by pure ling?
I don't think you understand the situation, even a nerfed widow mine would be way superior to tanks due to the added counters for them in HOTS.
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EPT
