EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 425
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 07 2013 03:03 Emzeeshady wrote: It is hard to argue versus you because you have no proof in which to argue against. You just say the tank is bad in every way. It's even harder to argue against you when you go from saying vipers come at hive giving tanks of plenty of time to be viable, to saying that you have to do a timing push with tanks, to saying that you have to play purely defensive with tanks, then ignoring me when I point out that a purely defensive unit is rarely worth investing in if there is an alternative. Do you even know what you're talking about? | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
You either get one of 2000 all-ins in your face early game or lategame protoss has the easier army to control and you need 2x the apm of your opponent. Im top 25 master and TvP seems like such a one-sided matchup. (my tvt win rate is 65%, TvZ 60% and TvP is like 30%, thankfully I dont have to play that many protosses) I cant even all-in protoss because terran has no viable all-ins thanks to nexus cannon, protoss on the other hand has way too many all-ins they can throw at you. this isn't just a perceived imbalance, one side has all-ins, the other side doesn't. its an actual joke | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
In WoL this was not good because if you ever caught the drop Terran would lose all 8 medivacs and all the units and the game, because there was no way to get away from blink stalkers other than hiding in deadspace, and it was easy to pin them there from that point. Now, he can run right into your army and even with blink stalkers he can just hit boost and run away, losing maybe 1 or 2 of them. Eventually he finds a hole and then it's stim down the nexus in 3 seconds and boost all the bio back home to hold off the allin and win the game. I just played a game where my obs saw a doom drop heading to my fourth so I brought my whole army there, as soon as he saw it he hits his thrusters and goes directly for my third base. Two medivacs get blinked down but they move so fast he has plenty of time to unload, stim down the third base, (I have an HT there that storms them, he just sits in it and DPSes the nexus down while medivacs heal) load up, and boost away again before my army can slowboat back over there. It's ridiculous. He kills a base no matter where my army is or what I scout. There's no risk at all when you can just insta-load and boost away from anything I could conceivably have. Smarter Terrans will just scan ahead of their doom drop. Oh, your army is there? Boost to another expansion, you can't catch up in time before the nexus dies. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:20 Xequecal wrote: Can someone tell me, what exactly is Protoss supposed to do against Terran doom drops (6+ medivacs filled with bio) in the lategame? Terran essentially gets to play muta/ling with these, making it completely impossible to ever take a fourth base while Terran expands over the whole map. Smaller drops can be deterred by a HT at each expo and main plus cannons, but when they show up with 8 medivacs, that expo is going to die. You can't base trade the Terran either because he can easily do irreparable damage and then boost all the bio back home before you can finish him off. In WoL this was not good because if you ever caught the drop Terran would lose all 8 medivacs and all the units and the game, because there was no way to get away from blink stalkers other than hiding in deadspace, and it was easy to pin them there from that point. Now, he can run right into your army and even with blink stalkers he can just hit boost and run away, losing maybe 1 or 2 of them. Eventually he finds a hole and then it's stim down the nexus in 3 seconds and boost all the bio back home to hold off the allin and win the game. I just played a game where my obs saw a doom drop heading to my fourth so I brought my whole army there, as soon as he saw it he hits his thrusters and goes directly for my third base. Two medivacs get blinked down but they move so fast he has plenty of time to unload, stim down the third base, (I have an HT there that storms them, he just sits in it and DPSes the nexus down while medivacs heal) load up, and boost away again before my army can slowboat back over there. It's ridiculous. He kills a base no matter where my army is or what I scout. There's no risk at all when you can just insta-load and boost away from anything I could conceivably have. Smarter Terrans will just scan ahead of their doom drop. Oh, your army is there? Boost to another expansion, you can't catch up in time before the nexus dies. cannons and a couple HTS its impossible to drop for terran if protoss isnt bad tbh | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:20 Xequecal wrote: Can someone tell me, what exactly is Protoss supposed to do against Terran doom drops (6+ medivacs filled with bio) in the lategame? Terran essentially gets to play muta/ling with these, making it completely impossible to ever take a fourth base while Terran expands over the whole map. Smaller drops can be deterred by a HT at each expo and main plus cannons, but when they show up with 8 medivacs, that expo is going to die. You can't base trade the Terran either because he can easily do irreparable damage and then boost all the bio back home before you can finish him off. In WoL this was not good because if you ever caught the drop Terran would lose all 8 medivacs and all the units and the game, because there was no way to get away from blink stalkers other than hiding in deadspace, and it was easy to pin them there from that point. Now, he can run right into your army and even with blink stalkers he can just hit boost and run away, losing maybe 1 or 2 of them. Eventually he finds a hole and then it's stim down the nexus in 3 seconds and boost all the bio back home to hold off the allin and win the game. I just played a game where my obs saw a doom drop heading to my fourth so I brought my whole army there, as soon as he saw it he hits his thrusters and goes directly for my third base. Two medivacs get blinked down but they move so fast he has plenty of time to unload, stim down the third base, (I have an HT there that storms them, he just sits in it and DPSes the nexus down while medivacs heal) load up, and boost away again before my army can slowboat back over there. It's ridiculous. He kills a base no matter where my army is or what I scout. There's no risk at all when you can just insta-load and boost away from anything I could conceivably have. Smarter Terrans will just scan ahead of their doom drop. Oh, your army is there? Boost to another expansion, you can't catch up in time before the nexus dies. So, if Zerg plays muta/ling, you lose as well? Is that what I'm reading? Ultimately, it's coming down to execution. You're being outplayed. You should be playing where he does lose 1-2 medivacs like that, and then his army is too weak to deal with yours. If he runs away to defend, you have a chance to build back your 4th and put pressure on him with your better army. If he tries to engage, his army is significantly weaker. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 07 2013 08:52 Emzeeshady wrote: If you have cannons and HTs at every base and are still able to hold their main army then you must be either much better or ahead of your opponent. Actually, 2 HTS and 3 cannons per expo are more than enough to kill 4-6 medivacs without any problem whatsoever, that's 4 supply and you make it sound like your main army is somewhere in the middle of nowhere in which case you should work on your positioning in general. In my eyes protoss is heavily favored in TvP because of the amount of all-ins they can do and how greedy they can be in the early game, lategame protoss army seems stronger than terran anyway so dont even get me started. And let's be honest here, Protoss can't have such a hard time considering the fact that they are most represented race in GM worldwide with the best win rate. If anything Terran doesn't have many players in the higher leagues, so if you are implying that terran needs a nerf the only result you would effectively get are less terran players in the higher leagues, even less than there already are. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:23 Xequecal wrote: I don't think Terran is overpowered in TvP based on winrate. The P allins are powerful and being "safe" against them puts you really far behind against economic builds. So Terran is going to drop a lot of games early and Protoss isn't. But I still think that once you reach the late game, and Terran has near perma-scan to know where you are at all times and can load up 6 medivacs without instantly dying to your army, you don't have much chance to win. So what do you suggest, nerf protoss early game and medivacs? | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
Cmon guys, this inst the bnet forums. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:27 Xequecal wrote: Void rays need to get nerfed. It's the strongest of the allins and they're even worse against Zerg. I would definitely agree with a medivac nerf IF blizzard actually balances out the early game. Specifically (as you said) void rays (too strong vs bunkers) and oracles (they come out too fast, so terran can't actually 1 rax fe anymore). The reason oracles break TvP early game is simple, Terran can't physically do 1 rax expos and be safe vs. oracle rushes (especially proxied) so you are orced to open gas, which in turn puts you behind vs. economical protoss openers. If I had to suggest a nerf to oracles I wouldn't necessarily nerf any of the unit stats but simply increase the build time by 10 seconds to give terran more time to prepare for them and make 1 rax expo viable again (1 oracle beats 5 marines head to head). As for void rays and speedivacs Void rays need dmg reduced and speedivacs could slowly lose health when boosting (20% like stim) -> would make it much easier to kill medivacs but still give the terran a chance to pull them back with good reactions. edit: Doing 1 drop would then result in a health loss of 40% on your medivacs (1 boost to get in and 1 boost to get out), it would require better reactions and timing by the terran player to keep medivacs alive and increase the risk of doing speed drops tenfold. edit: I mean riddle me this. oracles have higher dps(they kill scvs almost 40% faster) than banshees do, take 10 seconds less to build and can be chronoboosted. In my opinion the unit just needs it's build time increased, doing more dmg than banshees is already bad enough, the fact that it builds almost 20 seconds faster (with chronoboost) is the actual problem in my opinion. | ||
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:32 SlixSC wrote: Void rays need dmg reduced and speedivacs could slowly lose health when boosting (20% like stim) -> would make it much easier to kill medivacs but still give the terran a chance to pull them back with good reactions. edit: Doing 1 drop would then result in a health loss of 40% on your medivacs (1 boost to get in and 1 boost to get out), it would require better reactions and timing by the terran player to keep medivacs alive and increase the risk of doing speed drops tenfold. I don't know why so many people want something special to be added against the medivac. Costing energy, taking damage and even being unable to change direction when boost is used. Just increase the CD so it really is a "oh shit" button and not just a "oh it's off CD lets use it". Increasing the CD 2x wouldn't necessary be too much of a change. Sorry for cutting the post but wanted it to fit with medivac and not all the voidray talk  | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:46 Tobblish wrote: I don't know why so many people want something special to be added against the medivac. Costing energy, taking damage and even being unable to change direction when boost is used. Just increase the CD so it really is a "oh shit" button and not just a "oh it's off CD lets use it". Increasing the CD 2x wouldn't necessary be too much of a change. Sorry for cutting the post but wanted it to fit with medivac and not all the voidray talk I think your suggestion would be very ineffective as it wouldn't affect the drop itself, it would only make it harder to get out, getting in would be just as "easy" as it is now. edit: If anyone is watching Demuslim's stream that last game demonstrates exactly what I mean. Protoss opens oracles, does a little bit of damage (almost none) then follows up with an all-in and if you hold it off as Terran your counter attacks won't do anything. It's ridiculous in my opinion especially since voids and oracles come out of the same building so you open up oracles and have strong harrass potential and then get void rays who are a strong combat unit for early-midgame defense. A race should not be able to harrass and be absolutely safe vs. counter attacks at the same time, where is the risk there? I don't see any. It just seems broken imo | ||
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Tobblish
Sweden6404 Posts
On April 07 2013 09:48 SlixSC wrote: I think your suggestion would be very ineffective as it wouldn't affect the drop itself, it would only make it harder to get out, getting in would be just as "easy" as it is now. Yes but you at least have a choice as a player do you want to risk not getting away with the drop or do you just want to get in there. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On April 07 2013 06:20 Xequecal wrote: Can someone tell me, what exactly is Protoss supposed to do against Terran doom drops (6+ medivacs filled with bio) in the lategame? Terran essentially gets to play muta/ling with these, making it completely impossible to ever take a fourth base while Terran expands over the whole map. Smaller drops can be deterred by a HT at each expo and main plus cannons, but when they show up with 8 medivacs, that expo is going to die. You can't base trade the Terran either because he can easily do irreparable damage and then boost all the bio back home before you can finish him off. In WoL this was not good because if you ever caught the drop Terran would lose all 8 medivacs and all the units and the game, because there was no way to get away from blink stalkers other than hiding in deadspace, and it was easy to pin them there from that point. Now, he can run right into your army and even with blink stalkers he can just hit boost and run away, losing maybe 1 or 2 of them. Eventually he finds a hole and then it's stim down the nexus in 3 seconds and boost all the bio back home to hold off the allin and win the game. I just played a game where my obs saw a doom drop heading to my fourth so I brought my whole army there, as soon as he saw it he hits his thrusters and goes directly for my third base. Two medivacs get blinked down but they move so fast he has plenty of time to unload, stim down the third base, (I have an HT there that storms them, he just sits in it and DPSes the nexus down while medivacs heal) load up, and boost away again before my army can slowboat back over there. It's ridiculous. He kills a base no matter where my army is or what I scout. There's no risk at all when you can just insta-load and boost away from anything I could conceivably have. Smarter Terrans will just scan ahead of their doom drop. Oh, your army is there? Boost to another expansion, you can't catch up in time before the nexus dies. A couple of cannons and one or two high templar. Feedback medivacs. Wowza. | ||
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