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On March 30 2012 04:03 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
All those zone control issues of terran what I mentioned, come in to the play in the later stages of the game. Besides broodlords and tech switches which also are potential balance issue.
In my opinion, terran should be able to fully secure their all bases, which is not possible in current sc2 game design/maps.
I disagree. It seems Terran is able to consistently take their 3rd and 4th base and secure it. Planetaries also forces the Zerg to win with broodlord/infestor rather than any midgame army.
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Yeah, taking a 3rd and a 4th isn't terribly difficult as terran against zerg. Its much harder to do for a protoss in a PvZ for example. If you find this is breaking your TvZ, you're probably doing something wrong.
The difficult part is tackling the zerg army.
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On March 30 2012 04:03 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
All those zone control issues of terran what I mentioned, come in to the play in the later stages of the game. Besides broodlords and tech switches which also are potential balance issue.
In my opinion, terran should be able to fully secure their all bases, which is not possible in current sc2 game design/maps.
I don't get why you're discussing something that will obviously be tackled by HotS. I think we need to keep this thread centered around what imbalances Blizzard might fail to see, not the issues that will eventually be solved (at least given an official solution).
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On March 30 2012 00:05 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 22:59 Roachu wrote:On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example. And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion. I might be thinking of something else but what about sensor towers? They are good, but they are expensive to make especially in early-mid game. Whereas creep tumor is basically free and makes zerg units on it faster. Sensor tower doesn't really do anything else expect give detection, but it is still quite huge so it really isn't a problem. Still you can only really afford to make them at late game where terran has more than 3 bases and all the production facilities needed to pump out units to replace dead units faster.
But isn't it similar to protoss having to sacrifice production time and resources for observers? Or does the pros far outweigh the cons for toss compared to terran? I'm mostly just curious, I'm in the lower league so I'm not gonna argue balance.
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On March 30 2012 04:11 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 04:03 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
All those zone control issues of terran what I mentioned, come in to the play in the later stages of the game. Besides broodlords and tech switches which also are potential balance issue.
In my opinion, terran should be able to fully secure their all bases, which is not possible in current sc2 game design/maps. I disagree. It seems Terran is able to consistently take their 3rd and 4th base and secure it. Planetaries also forces the Zerg to win with broodlord/infestor rather than any midgame army.
If you actually followed pro scene and games you would notice that its rare that terrans have four bases.
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Now that I think what would be best way to counter brood lords and infestors. Maybe, atleast in theory, mass thor + marine support. In great numbers thors should handle broodlords with strike cannons and marines supporting. Also ghosts should be there for EMP or snipes to take care of infestors. You dont need vikings to counter broodlords, and vikings are actually counterproductive for yourself because of incoming ultralisk switch + they are eating up supply that you could be using for better units.
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On March 30 2012 05:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Now that I think what would be best way to counter brood lords and infestors. Maybe, atleast in theory, mass thor + marine support. In great numbers thors should handle broodlords with strike cannons and marines supporting. Also ghosts should be there for EMP or snipes to take care of infestors. You dont need vikings to counter broodlords, and vikings are actually counterproductive for yourself because of incoming ultralisk switch + they are eating up supply that you could be using for better units.
Strike cannons seem like a definite counter to broodlords.
Edit: I have to precise a bit, otherwise I would have just made a fool of myself :D. Even if you were thinking of using strike cannons on Ultras, Stun doesn't affect them, and SC's DPS are lower than the actual Thor ground attack's.
And it doesn't seem that smart to strike cannons infestors :D
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if zerg gets like a massive amounts of mutalisks in PvZ it just feels impossible to win, they can snipe anything in 1-5 seconds and run away
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On March 30 2012 05:27 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Now that I think what would be best way to counter brood lords and infestors. Maybe, atleast in theory, mass thor + marine support. In great numbers thors should handle broodlords with strike cannons and marines supporting. Also ghosts should be there for EMP or snipes to take care of infestors. You dont need vikings to counter broodlords, and vikings are actually counterproductive for yourself because of incoming ultralisk switch + they are eating up supply that you could be using for better units.
You dont play starcraft if you think this statement is true.
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Strike cannons can effectively get hp from broodlords, it takes the damage instantly. Rest of the damage comes from thors auto attack. Also you have marines, they can shoot broodlords also.
Vikings are not neccesary units against broodlords because mass thor + marines can deal with it also.
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On March 30 2012 05:48 ZenithM wrote:
SC's DPS are lower than the actual Thor ground attack's.
You are wrong. I just tested this in unit test map and clearly strike cannons dps is a lot higher than basic ground attack.
I was wrong when I though that strike cannons can shoot air units.
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On March 30 2012 06:54 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Strike cannons can effectively get hp from broodlords, it takes the damage instantly. Rest of the damage comes from thors auto attack. Also you have marines, they can shoot broodlords also.
Vikings are not neccesary units against broodlords because mass thor + marines can deal with it also.
This could possibly work if not for the
a) low damage of Thors to BLs that aren't clumped
b) short range of Marines
c) presence of Infestors
Thors aren't actually that good 1 on 1 against Broods. Furthermore, your Marines are almost definitely going to get fungaled, even supposing you throw in some Ghosts. Fungaled Marines = dead Marines = more Broodlings, since while Thors will eventually kill them, it takes them quite awhile to do so, allowing the Broodlings to build up.
Marine Thor isn't also especially good against a large variety of remaxe available to Zerg.
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There is not gonna be fungals if you actually use your ghosts instead of keeping them idle somewhere.
After testing 7 thors with handfull of marines against 10 broodlords, by focus firing every broodlord one by one, this terran army won the battle clearly and there were 5 thors alive after the battle.
I did not use infestors because there should not be fungals because we are assuming that terran actually uses the emp ability.
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On March 30 2012 07:04 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
There is not gonna be fungals if you actually use your ghosts instead of keeping them idle somewhere.
After testing 7 thors with handfull of marines against 10 broodlords, by focus firing every broodlord one by one, this terran army won the battle clearly and there were 5 thors alive after the battle.
I did not use infestors because there should not be fungals because we are assuming that terran actually uses the emp ability.
Lol? You can't just say "oh, well if Terran has Ghosts on the field then all those Infestors are irrelevant."
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I think its sucks the metagame has changes from ling bane muta into ling infestor, I wish infestor had some version of snipe/feedback like the other two races do, as it is I dont think Zerg has much to counter other races' spell casters with.
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On March 30 2012 04:11 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 04:03 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
All those zone control issues of terran what I mentioned, come in to the play in the later stages of the game. Besides broodlords and tech switches which also are potential balance issue.
In my opinion, terran should be able to fully secure their all bases, which is not possible in current sc2 game design/maps. I disagree. It seems Terran is able to consistently take their 3rd and 4th base and secure it. Planetaries also forces the Zerg to win with broodlord/infestor rather than any midgame army.
I agree with this. As the early expo styles of T and P are ramping up, the obvious benefit, which zerg had in past seasons, of earlier bases is going out the window. If a T goes early expand into one of the 8 million early pushes they have, Zerg either has to turtle on 2 base, meaning they are equal or behind a terran, or risk losing a third. Any properly turtling protoss or terran can defend their bases and wall off until its a requirement that zerg get a lategame army to even think of busting a base, barring extremely good muta harass.
The reason brood war was balanced was that the idea behind it was equal bases and equal size and power armies for all races. Zerg needing to be one base ahead forces zerg to play the "game of drones" to a knuckle biting scenario where they can spam 50-80 seconds worth of unit creation just before the enemy army gets to your base and kills you.
The reason Zerg has an equal time vs T or P is because they take extra bases. Taking extra bases becomes far less beneficial to zerg after third or fourth base for ZvX, because you cant saturate more than is necessary to make a full army.
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On March 30 2012 04:03 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
All those zone control issues of terran what I mentioned, come in to the play in the later stages of the game. Besides broodlords and tech switches which also are potential balance issue.
In my opinion, terran should be able to fully secure their all bases, which is not possible in current sc2 game design/maps.
what the flying fuck..
in your opinion, one race should be invulnerable to harass? ffs..
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On March 30 2012 04:36 Roachu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 00:05 Mehukannu wrote:On March 29 2012 22:59 Roachu wrote:On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example. And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion. I might be thinking of something else but what about sensor towers? They are good, but they are expensive to make especially in early-mid game. Whereas creep tumor is basically free and makes zerg units on it faster. Sensor tower doesn't really do anything else expect give detection, but it is still quite huge so it really isn't a problem. Still you can only really afford to make them at late game where terran has more than 3 bases and all the production facilities needed to pump out units to replace dead units faster. But isn't it similar to protoss having to sacrifice production time and resources for observers? Or does the pros far outweigh the cons for toss compared to terran? I'm mostly just curious, I'm in the lower league so I'm not gonna argue balance.
Well, observer is pretty much required to get as early as possible. Most protoss players do want to get that observer out before immortals while they are waiting for the robotics bay to finish, so that they will minimize the cut on the colossi production as much as possible. That is not to say that they are the best scout unit in the game and let protoss to deal with cloak banshees, creep tumors and detect drops. So it is a necessity for a protoss to make few of those.
Though I am not sure how I should be comparing the two since they are very different. Observer has cloak, can detect cloaked/burrowed units and it can move. While sensor tower can't move and detect invisible units, but can warn about visible units moving in the radius of it. So you see that observers are really good to make early in the game for the detection and scouting which both are really valuable things to have in the game.
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United States13143 Posts
On March 30 2012 06:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 05:48 ZenithM wrote:
SC's DPS are lower than the actual Thor ground attack's. You are wrong. I just tested this in unit test map and clearly strike cannons dps is a lot higher than basic ground attack. I was wrong when I though that strike cannons can shoot air units.
strike cannons have a 2 second windup and cooldown time, and a +2 Thor will do more than 500 damage over the full 10 seconds to any non-immortal target(no matter how many armour upgrades it has)
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On March 30 2012 06:59 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 05:48 ZenithM wrote:
SC's DPS are lower than the actual Thor ground attack's. You are wrong. I just tested this in unit test map and clearly strike cannons dps is a lot higher than basic ground attack. I was wrong when I though that strike cannons can shoot air units.
I didn't check myself, but liquipedia states that if you have Ground Weapons level 1 upgrade on your mech, Thor's DPS are greater than Strike cannons' DPS. It's more than likely that if you go for lategame comp with thors, you'll have at least that much in upgrades.
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EPT
