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On April 04 2012 00:25 Shiori wrote:
Problem: Lategame BL/Infestor (and to some extent lategame BL/Infestor/Ultralisk vs Terran) against Protoss presents the Protoss player with the following scenario: land a Vortex or lose the game. While this seems to have been sufficient to keep Protoss players in the game for awhile, it now seems that Zerg players at the highest level (Stephano, DRG) have become comfortable splitting their Broodlords. In my humble opinion, this presents Protoss with an unwinnable scenario (or at least something very close). I want to stress that I'm not mindlessly QQing here: there is no serious way for Protoss players to effectively deal with well-spread BLs, because even in the best of cases a Vortex will only hit 1/4 of the BLs, leaving many more to wreak havoc on one's base/army. This issue is only exacerbated by the tendency of Infestors to fungal Archons and delay them from getting into the Vortex.
Solution: I'm not entirely sure what a good solution to this would be. There are a variety of suggestions I've seen, but I have no idea if any of them would work:
1) Make broodlings ignore collision.
2) Make Fungal Growth slow (or just damage) air units rather than freeze them; make fungal growth just damage (and not freeze) massive units
3) Somehow reduce the effectiveness of mass BL compositions.
I wasn't joking when I implied that there is no easy fix. All I can say is that there is definitely a problem. I'm all for good control improving one's composition, but when the advantage is so severe that equally good control from the opposing player is insufficient for closing the gap, there's a problem.
Side Effects: Personally, I think that making broodlings ignore collision wouldn't have too much of an effect on anything except late game scenarios, and it would be be helpful in the sense that spreading BLs would still be viable, but if an opposing players army decided to move forward anyway, it would be able to do so uninhibited and the BLs/Infestors would (ideally) be forced to retreat or gear up for a fight in which both sides stand to actually lose something. Right now, a maxed Protoss army can get rolled over by Bl/Infestor/Corruptor + a few Roaches without killing more than 3 or 4 Broods and a couple of Roaches.
**I have considered the notion of a base trade, which is a popular suggestion I hear from Zerg players. Unfortunately, the current metagame has Zerg players littering the map with Spine Crawlers, which delay any Protoss trade significantly so as to make the gambit not worthwhile.
I forget who did it, but with a good amount of archons and colossus you can actually just plow through the broodlings (slowly, mind you), and pick off the broodlords without using blink too much. People underestimate how much damage broodlings are doing in these fights, and with stalker/archon/colossus you can mitigate a lot of damage.
Also, spreading the broodlords makes them far more vulnerable to other attacks, like blink stalker and split void rays.
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On April 03 2012 19:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
You know,
I'm getting quite sick of hearing Terrans complain about late game TvZ.
Terran has more aggressive tools early-mid game and have better timing due to zerg's relatively weak early game because of the larva mechanic. Terran usually get to act as aggressor first, which is a huge advantage and where most TvZ are won statistically.
There's no reason in the world that Terrans is disadvantaged by late game.
If you enter late game in TvZ with an army that can't stop infestor broods, I think you should have died 10 minutes ago but since Zerg has no siege weapon until late game...they have to let you live for a bit longer.
Completely ridiculous complaints.
I can't wait for my damn swarm host.
what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again?
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On April 04 2012 06:24 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 19:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
You know,
I'm getting quite sick of hearing Terrans complain about late game TvZ.
Terran has more aggressive tools early-mid game and have better timing due to zerg's relatively weak early game because of the larva mechanic. Terran usually get to act as aggressor first, which is a huge advantage and where most TvZ are won statistically.
There's no reason in the world that Terrans is disadvantaged by late game.
If you enter late game in TvZ with an army that can't stop infestor broods, I think you should have died 10 minutes ago but since Zerg has no siege weapon until late game...they have to let you live for a bit longer.
Completely ridiculous complaints.
I can't wait for my damn swarm host. what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again?
It used to be Marine/Ghost/Medivac/Tank, but you know.........
Problem: Since the Ghost nerf, Bio-Mech play in TvZ almost always loses one-sidedly to infestor/broodlord/zergling, which may mark the end of Biomech play in TvZ.
Solution: Revert the Ghost nerf, with a small change such as +5 vs psionic, and give Zerg players a nudge in the direction of Mass Overlord Drops.
Possible side effects: Zerg players would QQ, and if Ventral sacs is buffed, then it could turn out to be OP.
__________________________________________________________________________
Thoughts?
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On April 04 2012 06:01 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:25 Shiori wrote:
Problem: Lategame BL/Infestor (and to some extent lategame BL/Infestor/Ultralisk vs Terran) against Protoss presents the Protoss player with the following scenario: land a Vortex or lose the game. While this seems to have been sufficient to keep Protoss players in the game for awhile, it now seems that Zerg players at the highest level (Stephano, DRG) have become comfortable splitting their Broodlords. In my humble opinion, this presents Protoss with an unwinnable scenario (or at least something very close). I want to stress that I'm not mindlessly QQing here: there is no serious way for Protoss players to effectively deal with well-spread BLs, because even in the best of cases a Vortex will only hit 1/4 of the BLs, leaving many more to wreak havoc on one's base/army. This issue is only exacerbated by the tendency of Infestors to fungal Archons and delay them from getting into the Vortex.
Solution: I'm not entirely sure what a good solution to this would be. There are a variety of suggestions I've seen, but I have no idea if any of them would work:
1) Make broodlings ignore collision.
2) Make Fungal Growth slow (or just damage) air units rather than freeze them; make fungal growth just damage (and not freeze) massive units
3) Somehow reduce the effectiveness of mass BL compositions.
I wasn't joking when I implied that there is no easy fix. All I can say is that there is definitely a problem. I'm all for good control improving one's composition, but when the advantage is so severe that equally good control from the opposing player is insufficient for closing the gap, there's a problem.
Side Effects: Personally, I think that making broodlings ignore collision wouldn't have too much of an effect on anything except late game scenarios, and it would be be helpful in the sense that spreading BLs would still be viable, but if an opposing players army decided to move forward anyway, it would be able to do so uninhibited and the BLs/Infestors would (ideally) be forced to retreat or gear up for a fight in which both sides stand to actually lose something. Right now, a maxed Protoss army can get rolled over by Bl/Infestor/Corruptor + a few Roaches without killing more than 3 or 4 Broods and a couple of Roaches.
**I have considered the notion of a base trade, which is a popular suggestion I hear from Zerg players. Unfortunately, the current metagame has Zerg players littering the map with Spine Crawlers, which delay any Protoss trade significantly so as to make the gambit not worthwhile. There is a way to counter BLs. It's called +3/+3 Blink Stalkers and/or Phoenix/VR. If you are losing to Zerg late game, it's the problem with your composition. Are you on 4 bases when you get your late game army or just struggling with three? That's the bigger indicator than unit imbalance.
3/3 Blink stalkers still get stopped by fungal, letting Broodlings smash them, just like everything else. Also, assuming the zerg has some sort of ground force other than infestors, like just some lings and roaches, this is even worse, basically handing them your stalkers. I too feel that the Broodlord/Infestor composition, when properly controlled is the strongest overall lategame composition right now. I feel this might be the compsition Stephano was speaking about when he said Protoss need help against zerg, since he smashes all his protoss opponents with it.
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On April 04 2012 02:41 reqc1992 wrote:
To fix the Late game TvP , I was thinking about that:why not just put a friendly fire on the colossus so when the chargelots hit the marines they can die just like the marines with the seige tanks.
LOL? How does this "fix" late game tvp? It just makes the collosus god awful.
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Just wondering what you all consider needed nerfs and buffs. What criteria are needed?
Think they should remove the extra flying around broodling, onto the broodlord. Currently the initial shot of a broodlords spawns 2 broodlings and then 1 broodling pr. attack. With this ur units get stuck, even without the use of fungal growth.
Neural Parasite shouldn't be able to capture the mothership, basically it makes the fight really random and either it's a winning move, or does nothing, cuz the infestor dies.
Fungal Growth shouldn't lockdown massive units. It's really stupid to see roaches rush up and target down colossus, after a money fungal. So many very expensive units are big victims to this cheap spell, which is really designed to deal with quantities of units.
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On April 04 2012 06:24 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 19:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
You know,
I'm getting quite sick of hearing Terrans complain about late game TvZ.
Terran has more aggressive tools early-mid game and have better timing due to zerg's relatively weak early game because of the larva mechanic. Terran usually get to act as aggressor first, which is a huge advantage and where most TvZ are won statistically.
There's no reason in the world that Terrans is disadvantaged by late game.
If you enter late game in TvZ with an army that can't stop infestor broods, I think you should have died 10 minutes ago but since Zerg has no siege weapon until late game...they have to let you live for a bit longer.
Completely ridiculous complaints.
I can't wait for my damn swarm host. what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again?
Marine/Tank/Viking (need good unit control/game sense backed by good macro)
Thor/BFH/Viking/Raven (hard to transition into, map-dependent)
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On April 04 2012 06:01 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 00:25 Shiori wrote:
Problem: Lategame BL/Infestor (and to some extent lategame BL/Infestor/Ultralisk vs Terran) against Protoss presents the Protoss player with the following scenario: land a Vortex or lose the game. While this seems to have been sufficient to keep Protoss players in the game for awhile, it now seems that Zerg players at the highest level (Stephano, DRG) have become comfortable splitting their Broodlords. In my humble opinion, this presents Protoss with an unwinnable scenario (or at least something very close). I want to stress that I'm not mindlessly QQing here: there is no serious way for Protoss players to effectively deal with well-spread BLs, because even in the best of cases a Vortex will only hit 1/4 of the BLs, leaving many more to wreak havoc on one's base/army. This issue is only exacerbated by the tendency of Infestors to fungal Archons and delay them from getting into the Vortex.
Solution: I'm not entirely sure what a good solution to this would be. There are a variety of suggestions I've seen, but I have no idea if any of them would work:
1) Make broodlings ignore collision.
2) Make Fungal Growth slow (or just damage) air units rather than freeze them; make fungal growth just damage (and not freeze) massive units
3) Somehow reduce the effectiveness of mass BL compositions.
I wasn't joking when I implied that there is no easy fix. All I can say is that there is definitely a problem. I'm all for good control improving one's composition, but when the advantage is so severe that equally good control from the opposing player is insufficient for closing the gap, there's a problem.
Side Effects: Personally, I think that making broodlings ignore collision wouldn't have too much of an effect on anything except late game scenarios, and it would be be helpful in the sense that spreading BLs would still be viable, but if an opposing players army decided to move forward anyway, it would be able to do so uninhibited and the BLs/Infestors would (ideally) be forced to retreat or gear up for a fight in which both sides stand to actually lose something. Right now, a maxed Protoss army can get rolled over by Bl/Infestor/Corruptor + a few Roaches without killing more than 3 or 4 Broods and a couple of Roaches.
**I have considered the notion of a base trade, which is a popular suggestion I hear from Zerg players. Unfortunately, the current metagame has Zerg players littering the map with Spine Crawlers, which delay any Protoss trade significantly so as to make the gambit not worthwhile. There is a way to counter BLs. It's called +3/+3 Blink Stalkers and/or Phoenix/VR. If you are losing to Zerg late game, it's the problem with your composition. Are you on 4 bases when you get your late game army or just struggling with three? That's the bigger indicator than unit imbalance.
I'm not worried about mass BLs. I'm worried about BL/Infestor/Corruptor +remaining supply in Roaches with a zillion Spine Crawlers everywhere. Barring a sick Vortex, this is impossible to trade with let alone beat. Blinking Stalkers forward is suicide, lol.
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On April 04 2012 06:40 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:24 Vari wrote:On April 03 2012 19:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
You know,
I'm getting quite sick of hearing Terrans complain about late game TvZ.
Terran has more aggressive tools early-mid game and have better timing due to zerg's relatively weak early game because of the larva mechanic. Terran usually get to act as aggressor first, which is a huge advantage and where most TvZ are won statistically.
There's no reason in the world that Terrans is disadvantaged by late game.
If you enter late game in TvZ with an army that can't stop infestor broods, I think you should have died 10 minutes ago but since Zerg has no siege weapon until late game...they have to let you live for a bit longer.
Completely ridiculous complaints.
I can't wait for my damn swarm host. what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again? It used to be Marine/Ghost/Medivac/Tank, but you know......... Problem: Since the Ghost nerf, Bio-Mech play in TvZ almost always loses one-sidedly to infestor/broodlord/zergling, which may mark the end of Biomech play in TvZ. Solution: Revert the Ghost nerf, with a small change such as +5 vs psionic, and give Zerg players a nudge in the direction of Mass Overlord Drops. Possible side effects: Zerg players would QQ, and if Ventral sacs is buffed, then it could turn out to be OP. __________________________________________________________________________ Thoughts?
You mean infestor/broodlord now always lose one-sidely to Bio-Mech now Terrans have finally figured out they can just drop and pick engagement favourable to them since they have the more mobile army? Because that's all I've seen in the recent tournament games.
Solution: Buff broodlord back to their beta level. Increase fg dmg back to 48 like in the beta.
Possible side effect: The ghost nerf will actually to have an observable effect.
Just kidding. I do think implement these "leaked patch changes" may be a good idea:
- Nydus Worms can now be cancelled and refunded while building.
- Overlord base speed increased to from 0.469 to 0.938.
- Overlord upgraded speed increase from 1.875 to 2.344.
- Overlords can now use Excrete Creep while moving.
- Overlord base speed now decreases from 0.938 to 0.469 while Excrete Creep is active.
- Overlord upgraded speed now decreased from 2.344 to 1.875 while Excrete Creep is active.
- Spawn Larvae energy cost reduced to 20 from 25.
Well, maybe not the nydus worm one...
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On April 04 2012 07:50 ppdealer wrote:You mean infestor/broodlord now always lose one-sidely to Bio-Mech now Terrans have finally figured out they can just drop and pick engagement favourable to them since they have the more mobile army? Because that's all I've seen in the recent tournament games. Solution: Buff broodlord back to their beta level. Increase fg dmg back to 48 like in the beta. Possible side effect: The ghost nerf will actually to have an observable effect. Just kidding. I do think implement these "leaked patch changes" may be a good idea: Show nested quote +- Nydus Worms can now be cancelled and refunded while building.
- Overlord base speed increased to from 0.469 to 0.938.
- Overlord upgraded speed increase from 1.875 to 2.344.
- Overlords can now use Excrete Creep while moving.
- Overlord base speed now decreases from 0.938 to 0.469 while Excrete Creep is active.
- Overlord upgraded speed now decreased from 2.344 to 1.875 while Excrete Creep is active.
- Spawn Larvae energy cost reduced to 20 from 25. Well, maybe not the nydus worm one...
lol i assume you play zerg ^^ these would be the most imbalanced "balances" imaginable haha
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On April 04 2012 06:40 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:24 Vari wrote:On April 03 2012 19:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
You know,
I'm getting quite sick of hearing Terrans complain about late game TvZ.
Terran has more aggressive tools early-mid game and have better timing due to zerg's relatively weak early game because of the larva mechanic. Terran usually get to act as aggressor first, which is a huge advantage and where most TvZ are won statistically.
There's no reason in the world that Terrans is disadvantaged by late game.
If you enter late game in TvZ with an army that can't stop infestor broods, I think you should have died 10 minutes ago but since Zerg has no siege weapon until late game...they have to let you live for a bit longer.
Completely ridiculous complaints.
I can't wait for my damn swarm host. what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again? It used to be Marine/Ghost/Medivac/Tank, but you know......... Problem: Since the Ghost nerf, Bio-Mech play in TvZ almost always loses one-sidedly to infestor/broodlord/zergling, which may mark the end of Biomech play in TvZ. Solution: Revert the Ghost nerf, with a small change such as +5 vs psionic, and give Zerg players a nudge in the direction of Mass Overlord Drops. Possible side effects: Zerg players would QQ, and if Ventral sacs is buffed, then it could turn out to be OP. __________________________________________________________________________ Thoughts?
Why would zerg use drops against terran like that? Most maps you can just use run-bys and lategame nydus would be generally more effective against terran imo.
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On April 04 2012 06:58 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 02:41 reqc1992 wrote:
To fix the Late game TvP , I was thinking about that:why not just put a friendly fire on the colossus so when the chargelots hit the marines they can die just like the marines with the seige tanks. LOL? How does this "fix" late game tvp? It just makes the collosus god awful.
just like the tanks and mech in general is god awful vs protoss sir .
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On April 05 2012 04:41 reqc1992 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:58 da_head wrote:On April 04 2012 02:41 reqc1992 wrote:
To fix the Late game TvP , I was thinking about that:why not just put a friendly fire on the colossus so when the chargelots hit the marines they can die just like the marines with the seige tanks. LOL? How does this "fix" late game tvp? It just makes the collosus god awful. just like the tanks and mech in general is god awful vs protoss sir .
that would be awful, the reason they have that for terran tanks is because terran dont have a melee unit that has to be in friendly fire range, that would make protoss zealots have to be hit by the colossus
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PvZ: Infestor/broodlord/corruptor loses to VR/archon/HT/mothership and whatever mineral dump you choose. Can be pylons and cannons at your expansions to prevent ling runby's or whatever you want. VR/archon/HT/mothership crushes every zerg army. If you want to make a gas argument, then I counter with the gas requirements of the zergs build too.
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On April 04 2012 08:31 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:40 Fencer710 wrote:On April 04 2012 06:24 Vari wrote:On April 03 2012 19:24 neoghaleon55 wrote:
You know,
I'm getting quite sick of hearing Terrans complain about late game TvZ.
Terran has more aggressive tools early-mid game and have better timing due to zerg's relatively weak early game because of the larva mechanic. Terran usually get to act as aggressor first, which is a huge advantage and where most TvZ are won statistically.
There's no reason in the world that Terrans is disadvantaged by late game.
If you enter late game in TvZ with an army that can't stop infestor broods, I think you should have died 10 minutes ago but since Zerg has no siege weapon until late game...they have to let you live for a bit longer.
Completely ridiculous complaints.
I can't wait for my damn swarm host. what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again? It used to be Marine/Ghost/Medivac/Tank, but you know......... Problem: Since the Ghost nerf, Bio-Mech play in TvZ almost always loses one-sidedly to infestor/broodlord/zergling, which may mark the end of Biomech play in TvZ. Solution: Revert the Ghost nerf, with a small change such as +5 vs psionic, and give Zerg players a nudge in the direction of Mass Overlord Drops. Possible side effects: Zerg players would QQ, and if Ventral sacs is buffed, then it could turn out to be OP. __________________________________________________________________________ Thoughts? Why would zerg use drops against terran like that? Most maps you can just use run-bys and lategame nydus would be generally more effective against terran imo.
Nydus worms can be killed, you can have as few or as many units in overlords as you want, and there's no alarm for the terran player when you start dropping from overlords. Nydus worms also cost 100 gas each.
Run-by's can work with some maps, but when a terran is turtling, it can be hard to find a weakpoint in the defense to run-by.
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problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.
of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.
another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.
Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.
Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are.
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On April 07 2012 14:01 Ballistixz wrote:
problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.
of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.
another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.
Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.
Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are.
Currently hellions are only unit that still keeps terran from fading away from the pro scene. TvP is already too hard to deal with, and tvz is not far from it.
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On April 07 2012 14:05 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 14:01 Ballistixz wrote:
problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.
of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.
another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.
Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.
Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are. Currently hellions are only unit that still keeps terran from fading away from the pro scene. TvP is already too hard to deal with, and tvz is not far from it.
what do you mean? what grounds do you base that off of? why is it that hellions keep terran from "fading away from the pro scene"?
and the main problem in TvP that ive noticed is colo. colo is another flawed unit that blizz needs to take another look into. this game is to heavily focused on "KEY" units. for example, with toss there "KEY" unit is sentries and colo. mostly sentries tho. without sentries toss cant really do much of anything.
for zerg its infestor broodlords.
terran, however, are very versatile as they have many different "KEY" units for each match up or build. its true that hellions are a key unit for terran, but they dont NEED them like toss NEEDS sentries or zerg NEEDS infestors.
this situation is something i hope they address in HoTS. you will never see a toss build that DOESNT involve sentries and i find that very sad/depressing.
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On April 05 2012 04:41 reqc1992 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:58 da_head wrote:On April 04 2012 02:41 reqc1992 wrote:
To fix the Late game TvP , I was thinking about that:why not just put a friendly fire on the colossus so when the chargelots hit the marines they can die just like the marines with the seige tanks. LOL? How does this "fix" late game tvp? It just makes the collosus god awful. just like the tanks and mech in general is god awful vs protoss sir .
TvP mech doesn't work because there are multiple Protoss unit counters to that composition, not because of siege tank splash damage.
Protoss absolutely needs chargelots to tank damage, force the Terran player to micro the bio, and to deal decent damage. For the chargelots to get instantly incinerated by colossus fire would make the match-up completely broken.
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Terran is really badly designed, its absolutely ridicilously harder than other races. Without hellions tvz would be totally zerg favored, even more than it is now.
Terran really needs some more zone control. Tanks are bad currently, they have been nerfed to the ground. Give us back bw tanks please.
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