Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 192

On April 07 2012 15:28 Mongolbonjwa wrote:
Terran is really badly designed, its absolutely ridicilously harder than other races. Without hellions tvz would be totally zerg favored, even more than it is now.

Terran really needs some more zone control. Tanks are bad currently, they have been nerfed to the ground. Give us back bw tanks please.

On April 07 2012 15:39 Steel wrote:


The problem is that quick marine tank attacks into natural choke points existing in all maps especially the recent addition to the ladder, would be impossible to stop. They are already effective in general, as shown in recent televised matches. BW tanks took longer to tech to (less gas) and the maps were twice as big. Tanks do very well for the terran race, in all matchups...

On April 04 2012 05:45 neoghaleon55 wrote:

Problem: Terran has too many low-risk/high reward openings: 2rax, bitbybit, double reactor factory/marauderhellion/2port/ etc. David Kim gave an interview last year where he said the many openings of Terran has even without need for scouting or before scouting actually is available is problematic. This leads to coinflip builds or scenarios that cannot be scouted to reacted to.

Solution: Make command orbitals cost 100 gas. Consider that if a Terran does a 2rax bunker, he will have to make a choice of whether or not to to sacrifice his orbital time or to make a later push. This change makes early game Terran risk/reward ratio more in line with one another. Early game Terran economy would not be as strong to support all the coinflip openings and will be more comparable to protoss and zerg's early game.


Side Effect: Mass orbitals would be a lot less cost effective. No longer will 2 mules buy back the price of one orbital command.

On April 07 2012 15:44 Mongolbonjwa wrote:

terran needs to mass tanks before they are any good

On April 04 2012 06:24 Vari wrote:

what is the army that stops infestor/brood lord/corruptor/ling again?

On April 07 2012 20:33 GoSuChicken wrote:
I think actually that Toss and Terran are kinda even now, only Zerg seems (In tournaments) falling of quite a bit sadly

On April 07 2012 14:01 Ballistixz wrote:
problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.

of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.

another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.

Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.

Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are.

On April 05 2012 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
PvZ: Infestor/broodlord/corruptor loses to VR/archon/HT/mothership and whatever mineral dump you choose. Can be pylons and cannons at your expansions to prevent ling runby's or whatever you want. VR/archon/HT/mothership crushes every zerg army. If you want to make a gas argument, then I counter with the gas requirements of the zergs build too.

On April 07 2012 14:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


TvP mech doesn't work because there are multiple Protoss unit counters to that composition, not because of siege tank splash damage.

Protoss absolutely needs chargelots to tank damage, force the Terran player to micro the bio, and to deal decent damage. For the chargelots to get instantly incinerated by colossus fire would make the match-up completely broken.

On April 08 2012 01:19 Southwards wrote:
Complaint:
Mutalisks in ZvP are currently perhaps a little bit to strong in terms of harassment and either force unwinnable base trades or a very disadvantageous macro situation for Protoss.

Solution:
Add an upgrade to the Fleet Beacon that gives cannons the ability to do splash damage to air. The need for such an upgrade coincides nicely to the general timing of a Mothership to counter a Broodlord tech switch after the Protoss has established three bases using the combination of storm, cannons and templar. This allows the Protoss to spread himself out a bit more and take more bases and be much more effective in a forced base trade. By no means do I believe it would be to strong due its extensive position within the tech tree allowing Zerg to still have a really nice timing window to harass effectively with their Mutalisks.

Effects in other Matches:
Fleet Beacon is generally a non existent tech path in PvT and PvP so it should have very minor implications.

On April 08 2012 02:41 Mehukannu wrote:

I don't see what would be so bad about colossus having friendly fire. If anything it would force protoss do more micro with their units especially with zealots to steer away from the splash and colossi to focus fire on targets that they don't damage zealots.
It is not like terran players are already doing that in TvZ match up against banelings (focus fire on banelings and spread marines) only this time it would be little bit different.
I think it would make the already dull match-up somewhat interesting and fun to watch.

On April 07 2012 21:32 timoi210 wrote:



I can definitely see how biased you are about this. Before you start blasting away about how OP another race is, at least take time to either play it yourself or watch a significant number of high level replays because most of your arguments sound like "TERRAN OP.".

Argument Number 1: Mineral Cost
You say that hellions *only* cost minerals and a player *only* needs 4-8? Do you even realize how large 8 hellions are? thats 2 Command Centers/Nexii and 2 2/3s Hatcheries. Are you saying that the terran player's ONLY source of EARLY GAME map control which is the Hellions in OP? Do you even factor in the tech and time needed to get out the hellions? (ie. 100 gas to factory then reactor).

Argument Number 2: Counterability
Who says a zerg NEEDS to make roaches? If you watch replays you can see that most competent zerg players use a combination of queens, zerglings and spinecrawlers(usually just 1) to either forces the terran player back or to outright kill them if he suicides them into your base. Zerglings with speed outrun hellions on creep and hellions ONLY direct counter Zerglings IF AND ONLY IF they are LINED UP, otherwise if surrounded or even a minor sandwich will cause all the hellions to die. If you ARE forced into roaches due to mass mass mass helions then at least know this, the terran player's tech and unit composition are way behind due to all his minerals dumped into hellions not marines as well as having only 1 gas and no starport and Command Center in sight.

Argument Number 3: Usability
A terran player makes hellions because of three reasons: Map Control/Light Harass, Mech Play or All In/Heavy Harass. Map Control is what most macro-oriented terrans would build 2-6 hellions for as in the early early game, the zerg player with the presence of zerglings will have both the mobility and firepower to shut down most types of marine play. This map control allows the zerg to both expand at will and extend his reach via creep spread. This is why they go for hellions because it allows the terran player to force the zerg player to stay home in case of a runby and to deny creep tumors. Secondly, a Mech Play is viable if the terran chooses to go for the Blue Flame Upgrade. Finally, the last play is the All In/Heavy Harass which is what you are arguing against. Like what I said earlier a mass hellion play will be shut down through the use of zerglings, queens and spine crawlers, and if the terran player goes for a mass hellion All In then all a zerg player has to do is to hold it off and not only is the zerg ahead due to economy (on 2 bases, Queens, lack of second Orbital Command), but also in tech (Terran player's lack of starport, Marines, Tanks, Upgrades) as roaches allow for a roach bust play couple this with the terran player's need to expand to stay in the game would lead to a win for the zerg.

Argument Number 4: Banshee Tech Switch
The viability of a banshee tech switch can only happen if 3 things occur: the terran player makes only 4-6 hellions or lose significant marine/tank production and a late expo, the zerg player does not go for a fast lair, and the zerg player overreacts by making too many zerglings. Normally, a quick hellion-banshee double harass can only happen if the terran player creates the bare minimum number of hellions that would illicit a defensive response from the zerg which is 4-6 hellion. This is because the ability to make hellions hinder the production of other important units such as the marine, siege tank, command center and obviously the starport. The need for gas also forces the terran player to go double refinery further limiting his mineral intake. Secondly, a fast lair totally shuts down any type of banshee play because of 2 things: overseers and MUTALISKS. Lastly as a zerg player, it is VERY IMPORTANT to not overreact against the hellions in front of the base. 4 hellions would require about 5-7 pairs of lings as well as a spine crawler and that WILL dissuade any type of runby or he WILL lose a command center's worth of resources.

In Conclusion
Making a gas requirement for hellions is highly unnecessary as there are already significant factors that delay any type of hellion play. High level Zerg play also demonstrates the best way to counter and deflect any type of terran hellion aggression. As a former plat zerg player now gold protoss (Yes I'm that bad) please do your research before coming out with another baseless "argument" here as I had no problems whatsoever against hellions. Midgame however, there might be some problems if you aren't prepared.

On April 08 2012 03:19 tomatriedes wrote:


Terran are already 61>39% over protoss in Korea and 54>46% over protoss internationally. Why on earth would you nerf the race which is already doing the worst in that match up?

On April 08 2012 04:58 Mehukannu wrote:

54-46% isn't that big of difference and is very acceptable for a good game balance and it definitely doesn't show any imbalance in the match-up since that difference is just a small statistical variations. As for korean statistics how about you get a more bigger sample that isn't around ~80 games to show us balance for one match-up, so we wouldn't have a huge statistical variance.
If anything, terrans are getting their wins from mid game (timings, all-ins) where there are not even that many colossi on the field. It would at least go on the fix some of the issues such as terrans weak late game and the lack of microable units in the game.
You could think that all the protoss buffs and the terran nerf protoss would be doing much better in the match-up. Perhaps something is wrong with the players rather than the race...
This could also leads us to think appropriate terrans mid-game nerfs to balance the match up out

On April 08 2012 04:21 Ballistixz wrote:



1: considering how much minerals a zerg needs to stop 4-8 hellions? no its not alot. lets be realistic here. u will need about 1-2 spines almost guaranteed. thats 100-200 minerals right there. u will ned a extra queen to fend off the hellions and to block ramp so thats another 150 minerals. if you are going to do a cim city then u will need a evo chamber (2 evos on certain maps) so thats 75-150 minerals for early evo.

so in static defense/cim city alone u have 325-500 minerals. now add in the cost of lings or forced roaches to that mix. so no, i dont think its alot considering what the zerg has to make in order to defend against that many hellions. infact if u force units instead of drones then hellions are doing its job that way as well. you have to think deeper about these things. its not as simple as "4 hellions is a CC! thats alot of money!" think of what those 4 hellions are making the zerg player do.

2: sigh, i really hate when someone says "watch pro player replays for an example!". i can easily bring up pro replays of players LOSING to hellion play just as well as i can pull up a replay of a pro player defending it. that is not the point.

sure u can defend 4 or so hellions without making a single roach. u can even defend against 6. but when the number starts to grow beyond a certain point you NEED roaches. you cannot just defend 20 hellions with lings only.... especially if those hellions are blue flamed. the terran would have to mess up royally for lings to ever kill that many hellions as be cost effective at the same time.

3: umm, ok? i know what hellions do and i know what they are used for. but what does that have to do with them costing a lil bit of gas? im not saying to remove the unit from the game -_-

4: "forcing" a terran to go double refinery? is it so hard for u to go quad refinery at ur natural? or are u always on 1 base? im not sure that i understand where u are going with this. since when is double refinery bad?

5: high level terran play also demonstrates that if a high level zerg messes up even in the slightest and lets hellions in his base he can pretty much auto GG. it has happened to idra many, many times. so again, i dont see a point in trying to prove me wrong with VoDs/replays.... just like u can bring up a replay showing a zerg defending against hellions i can pull up a replay of a zerg losing to hellions harshly. instead of focusing/copying pro players and using VoDS/replays to try and prove an argument, please use your mind and ability to think instead.


another thing, i know exactly how to defend against hellions. i even stated it in my post. i also stated the hellion, as a unit, is not OP. that was never my argument.

my argument mainly applies to the mid-late game when terrans start to mass hellions. when you mass enough hellions you are basically making a entire unit useless in the match up purely because of its "hard counter" feature. that is actually quite insane if u think about it. look at it from a zerg point of view. what unit does zerg has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does toss has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does terran have that completly stops toss from making zealots?

20+ blue flame hellions means zergins are useless. maybe not in low plat and below, but even in high platinum higher terran hellion micro gets better and better and these things start to show. u CAN NOT fight that many hellions with just lings, u need roaches. idc if u can beat 20+ blue flame hellions with 0-0 lings in gold league, all that means is that the terran player is insanely bad (no offense to the gold leaguers)