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On April 08 2012 19:54 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:48 karpo wrote:On April 08 2012 19:43 neoghaleon55 wrote:
1. You don't need an orbital to expand......
2. It's been done before, blizzard moved supply depot before barracks. People deal with it. No biggie. Terrans today DO need orbitals when they expand to keep up with other races, this makes their expansions much more costly than the other two races. It also totally changes the early game if you need 50-100 gas for orbital, it will affect upgrade timings and everything requiring gas. It's a much bigger change than supply before barracks. Affecting the timing is essentially the point. 50 gas isn't too much to ask, it's negligible midgame/late game, but it reduces the effectiveness of mule/all ins.
So essentially you have no concrete idea on how it will affect early game TvP and TvZ timings and defense, you just want it to nerf mules and all-ins? Doesn't this also affect the speed at which a terran can pressure a greedy protoss/zerg? Top terrans seem to live only by doing those early game agressions into late game play.
After this post i won't bother as i now remember you from that "DRG has bad ZvT"-thread were you just ignored all reasonable arguments against you. And that ZvT balance whine netted you a ban if i remember correctly...
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On April 08 2012 10:33 teamhozac wrote:
One word can sum up the mountain of garbage you just spewed, roach (75/25) done
So, his point is: One terran unit makes zerglings obsolete to a point that it is ridiculous.
Your respond: Build roaches.
And to top it all off you call his post "mountain of garbage". Wow. Just ... wow.
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On April 08 2012 19:56 timoi210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Thank you for that blanket statement that says absolutely nothing specific.
I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP.
Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong. The mule causes all these problems because considering this is an economy-based RTS...giving one race MORE economy than the others doesn't help.
My suggestion is pretty clean, make orbital command cost 50 gas or 100gas. That way Terran will have to choose whether to do that 2rax bunker and delay their orbital, or get the orbital and weaken the strong early game all-ins.
How is the mule OP? Potentially the protoss has the ability to get workers 20% faster and the zerg has the ability to spawn 10+ workers in a single production cycle, do you even know the reason why Terran has the MULE? It's because each building made needs a single SCV inactive for a certain amount of time. That means less mining and therefore less income. Terrans don't have the ability to produce 10+ workers or to speed up their scv production through chronoboost and thats why they need the MULE. Adding a gas requirement further hinders the Terran players build order and delays their expansion. You might think that mining gas is easy because the other races have their extractors/assimilators up much earlier as its needed for thier build order. Command Centers already cost the most amount of resources and time factoring in the PF and OC upgrade and you want to make it more expensive? From your responses I can clearly tell you're a zerg player as bunker rushes only happen in ZvT and I can tell you that a terran player bunker rushing you will be significantly set back as they sent at least 2 SCVs(keep in mind Terran makes the fewest and slowest workers) to build. Honestly you're grasping at straws as instead of reading my entire post, you focus on a SINGLE STATEMENT instead of the entire thing. In response to your question: No the MULE is not OP as Terran makes fewer SCVs(Zerg can spawn a lot through larva injects) and needs them to build buildings.
From your response and your icon, I can tell you're clearly Terran.
I don't think you understand how early game zerg works. The limiting factor for production, both buildings/workers/unit all come from the larva. Early game Zerg does not compare well to Terran because the constant need for larva. And if you're going to compare production lines where Terran loses a worker temporarily...zerg loses the worker completely! Don't go down that discussion...it's pointless. The ability to produce 10+ worker only occurs after maybe the 6-8 minute mark...assuming the zerg hits injects perfectly and hasn't been harassed. Bunker rush occurs at the 4 minute mark...you see my problem.
I actually rarely get bunker rushed, and when I do, I can usually stop it because opponents at my level are awful at micro...but I can't win immediately because Terran is safe after a fail 2 rax. All it does is put them a little bit behind, and the game goes on. If protoss does 4 gate, or zerg 6pool fails completely, they both die within 5 minutes because those strategies actually have similar risk/reward ratios.
The stupidest thing is that pro-zerg players still lose to 2rax allin ALL the time. And to complicate things, we have people like MKP doing a 2rax into 3rd orbital because he expects any good zerg to put up a ton of defense or else they auto die.
Again 50 gas isn't much. Why do you think warp gate research is 50 minerals 50 gas?
The damn upgrade is basically free.
The gas requirement is only there to slow down early game timing.
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On April 08 2012 19:57 karpo wrote:
And that ZvT balance whine netted you a ban if i remember correctly...
This is the correct place to discuss balance.
And personal attacks are not going to help in this discussion.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining.
You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then?
You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response?
And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you.
In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas.
The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely.
As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you.
Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't.
Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base.
All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway?
The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations.
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On April 08 2012 20:13 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:57 karpo wrote:
And that ZvT balance whine netted you a ban if i remember correctly... This is the correct place to discuss balance. And personal attacks are not going to help in this discussion.
It's not a personal attack. It's just information about your post history and the fact that i can't be arsed to argue with someone that has a track record of both ZvT balance whine and ignoring people. I'm out. 
User was warned for this post
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On April 08 2012 20:11 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:56 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 19:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Thank you for that blanket statement that says absolutely nothing specific.
I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP.
Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong. The mule causes all these problems because considering this is an economy-based RTS...giving one race MORE economy than the others doesn't help.
My suggestion is pretty clean, make orbital command cost 50 gas or 100gas. That way Terran will have to choose whether to do that 2rax bunker and delay their orbital, or get the orbital and weaken the strong early game all-ins.
How is the mule OP? Potentially the protoss has the ability to get workers 20% faster and the zerg has the ability to spawn 10+ workers in a single production cycle, do you even know the reason why Terran has the MULE? It's because each building made needs a single SCV inactive for a certain amount of time. That means less mining and therefore less income. Terrans don't have the ability to produce 10+ workers or to speed up their scv production through chronoboost and thats why they need the MULE. Adding a gas requirement further hinders the Terran players build order and delays their expansion. You might think that mining gas is easy because the other races have their extractors/assimilators up much earlier as its needed for thier build order. Command Centers already cost the most amount of resources and time factoring in the PF and OC upgrade and you want to make it more expensive? From your responses I can clearly tell you're a zerg player as bunker rushes only happen in ZvT and I can tell you that a terran player bunker rushing you will be significantly set back as they sent at least 2 SCVs(keep in mind Terran makes the fewest and slowest workers) to build. Honestly you're grasping at straws as instead of reading my entire post, you focus on a SINGLE STATEMENT instead of the entire thing. In response to your question: No the MULE is not OP as Terran makes fewer SCVs(Zerg can spawn a lot through larva injects) and needs them to build buildings. From your response and your icon, I can tell you're clearly Terran. I don't think you understand how early game zerg works. The limiting factor for production, both buildings/workers/unit all come from the larva. Early game Zerg does not compare well to Terran because the constant need for larva. And if you're going to compare production lines where Terran loses a worker temporarily...zerg loses the worker completely! Don't go down that discussion...it's pointless. The ability to produce 10+ worker only occurs after maybe the 6-8 minute mark...assuming the zerg hits injects perfectly and hasn't been harassed. Bunker rush occurs at the 4 minute mark...you see my problem. I actually rarely get bunker rushed, and when I do, I can usually stop it because opponents at my level are awful at micro...but I can't win immediately because Terran is safe after a fail 2 rax. All it does is put them a little bit behind, and the game goes on. If protoss does 4 gate, or zerg 6pool fails completely, they both die within 5 minutes because those strategies actually have similar risk/reward ratios. The stupidest thing is that pro-zerg players still lose to 2rax allin ALL the time. And to complicate things, we have people like MKP doing a 2rax into 3rd orbital because he expects any good zerg to put up a ton of defense or else they auto die. Again 50 gas isn't much. Why do you think warp gate research is 50 minerals 50 gas? The damn upgrade is basically free. The gas requirement is only there to slow down early game timing.
As I explained in my earlier post I said I was a former Terran now I'm playing Random and have firsthand experience in almost all so called balance issues. I can honestly tell you right here and now that your appeal is utterly useless and baseless. All you've been saying is that MULEs make Terran's ability to cheese better? You wanna compare them fine let me tell you then. 6 pool is a zerg chesse strategy that relies HEAVILY on the timing of the zerglings, if executed properly it would outright kill the opposing player. 4 gate is a early-mid game timing push that aims to overpower with massive amounts of units. The Terran Bunker rush aims to do 1 thing and 1 thing only and that is to force army units instead of drones from the zerg. Bunker pressure is by no means an all in in any way it is what it is Bunker PRESSURE. Then you bring up the 2 rax all in? What is this nonsense that it puts a Terran player a little bit behind? ALL Cheese are intended by the player to outright kill the opposing player. One does not simply come back from a cheese if it is held off. If the player devotes all his resources into the cheese then there is no way he can come back in the game if it fails barring a huge misstep by the opposing player. Among the two of us here it is you who is grasping at straws around here. You bring up and issue that MULEs give the Terran an early game advantage? Well then tell me what are Terrans designed for? Why else is their t1 extremely powerful and their t3, for lack of a better word, garbage? If your issue is that Terrans are some uber powerful godlike entity in the early game and their cheese is "easier" to do or "better" or "risk less" makes you seems extremely ignorant and biased. Before comparing an economy based tech to something offensive and army driven like warp-gate, understand that they are 2 extremely different circumstances. Your inability to read, comprehend and foresee the complications of such an action as adding the gas requirement will affect all levels of play from the bronze league up to the best of the best in the GSL.
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On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations.
In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it?
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it?
Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran.
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On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran.
Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop? 
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On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran.
If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 08 2012 21:12 Krejven wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop?
Eh... reread my post please.
On April 08 2012 21:23 timoi210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point.
Sure warp prism harrass is good, but it's comparable to cheese. If I invest in a warp prism + 4 zealots in the midgame, my army will be weak and my tech will be delayed. I see your point but if I use a warp prism in the midgame when terran drops occur, I won't have charge and you will have stim. This means that my drop will be cleaned up easily + the chance of my warp prism getting sniped by stimmed marines is far bigger than the chances of a medivac getting sniped as blink is not an option at this point in the game.
It's just not as cost effective and it leaves me far more vulnerable. Warp prism harrass is sick good once I have a standing army that can take a straight up fight.
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On April 08 2012 20:43 timoi210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:11 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 19:56 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 19:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Thank you for that blanket statement that says absolutely nothing specific.
I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP.
Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong. The mule causes all these problems because considering this is an economy-based RTS...giving one race MORE economy than the others doesn't help.
My suggestion is pretty clean, make orbital command cost 50 gas or 100gas. That way Terran will have to choose whether to do that 2rax bunker and delay their orbital, or get the orbital and weaken the strong early game all-ins.
How is the mule OP? Potentially the protoss has the ability to get workers 20% faster and the zerg has the ability to spawn 10+ workers in a single production cycle, do you even know the reason why Terran has the MULE? It's because each building made needs a single SCV inactive for a certain amount of time. That means less mining and therefore less income. Terrans don't have the ability to produce 10+ workers or to speed up their scv production through chronoboost and thats why they need the MULE. Adding a gas requirement further hinders the Terran players build order and delays their expansion. You might think that mining gas is easy because the other races have their extractors/assimilators up much earlier as its needed for thier build order. Command Centers already cost the most amount of resources and time factoring in the PF and OC upgrade and you want to make it more expensive? From your responses I can clearly tell you're a zerg player as bunker rushes only happen in ZvT and I can tell you that a terran player bunker rushing you will be significantly set back as they sent at least 2 SCVs(keep in mind Terran makes the fewest and slowest workers) to build. Honestly you're grasping at straws as instead of reading my entire post, you focus on a SINGLE STATEMENT instead of the entire thing. In response to your question: No the MULE is not OP as Terran makes fewer SCVs(Zerg can spawn a lot through larva injects) and needs them to build buildings. From your response and your icon, I can tell you're clearly Terran. I don't think you understand how early game zerg works. The limiting factor for production, both buildings/workers/unit all come from the larva. Early game Zerg does not compare well to Terran because the constant need for larva. And if you're going to compare production lines where Terran loses a worker temporarily...zerg loses the worker completely! Don't go down that discussion...it's pointless. The ability to produce 10+ worker only occurs after maybe the 6-8 minute mark...assuming the zerg hits injects perfectly and hasn't been harassed. Bunker rush occurs at the 4 minute mark...you see my problem. I actually rarely get bunker rushed, and when I do, I can usually stop it because opponents at my level are awful at micro...but I can't win immediately because Terran is safe after a fail 2 rax. All it does is put them a little bit behind, and the game goes on. If protoss does 4 gate, or zerg 6pool fails completely, they both die within 5 minutes because those strategies actually have similar risk/reward ratios. The stupidest thing is that pro-zerg players still lose to 2rax allin ALL the time. And to complicate things, we have people like MKP doing a 2rax into 3rd orbital because he expects any good zerg to put up a ton of defense or else they auto die. Again 50 gas isn't much. Why do you think warp gate research is 50 minerals 50 gas? The damn upgrade is basically free. The gas requirement is only there to slow down early game timing. As I explained in my earlier post I said I was a former Terran now I'm playing Random and have firsthand experience in almost all so called balance issues. I can honestly tell you right here and now that your appeal is utterly useless and baseless. All you've been saying is that MULEs make Terran's ability to cheese better? You wanna compare them fine let me tell you then. 6 pool is a zerg chesse strategy that relies HEAVILY on the timing of the zerglings, if executed properly it would outright kill the opposing player. 4 gate is a early-mid game timing push that aims to overpower with massive amounts of units. The Terran Bunker rush aims to do 1 thing and 1 thing only and that is to force army units instead of drones from the zerg. Bunker pressure is by no means an all in in any way it is what it is Bunker PRESSURE. Then you bring up the 2 rax all in? What is this nonsense that it puts a Terran player a little bit behind? ALL Cheese are intended by the player to outright kill the opposing player. One does not simply come back from a cheese if it is held off. If the player devotes all his resources into the cheese then there is no way he can come back in the game if it fails barring a huge misstep by the opposing player. Among the two of us here it is you who is grasping at straws around here. You bring up and issue that MULEs give the Terran an early game advantage? Well then tell me what are Terrans designed for? Why else is their t1 extremely powerful and their t3, for lack of a better word, garbage? If your issue is that Terrans are some uber powerful godlike entity in the early game and their cheese is "easier" to do or "better" or "risk less" makes you seems extremely ignorant and biased. Before comparing an economy based tech to something offensive and army driven like warp-gate, understand that they are 2 extremely different circumstances. Your inability to read, comprehend and foresee the complications of such an action as adding the gas requirement will affect all levels of play from the bronze league up to the best of the best in the GSL.
Don't put words in my mouth, I never said "uber powerful godlike entity"
Jeez, hyperbole much?
I can't understand why you can't discuss this cordially without going for personal attacks.
Insulting another poster does not make your points any more valid, though I don't think I will get through to you on such points.
Whatever, I'm done discussing this.
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On April 08 2012 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:12 Krejven wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop? Eh... reread my post please. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:23 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point. Sure warp prism harrass is good, but it's comparable to cheese. If I invest in a warp prism + 4 zealots in the midgame, my army will be weak and my tech will be delayed. I see your point but if I use a warp prism in the midgame when terran drops occur, I won't have charge and you will have stim. This means that my drop will be cleaned up easily + the chance of my warp prism getting sniped by stimmed marines is far bigger than the chances of a medivac getting sniped as blink is not an option at this point in the game. It's just not as cost effective and it leaves me far more vulnerable. Warp prism harrass is sick good once I have a standing army that can take a straight up fight.
There are two things you forget:
1) If T drops, toss warps in units directly to deal with them. Most protoss have more gateways than they can afford anyhow, so very often at least 2-3 are on cooldown. Terran units will trickle out of the barracks at random times and will be less because Terran has less production facilities because they produce constantly.
2) The protoss army will be at home so you always have units close to defend. In contrast, the terran army at that exact time will be out on the map far away. If a prism drops occurs and you don't have any units at home because you rallied them towards your army, you are screwed. Because the prism turns into a pylon and toss warp-ins will easily match terrans productions.
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On April 08 2012 19:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 18:27 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 18:01 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 06:58 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 04:21 Ballistixz wrote:On April 07 2012 21:32 timoi210 wrote:On April 07 2012 14:01 Ballistixz wrote:
problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.
of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.
another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.
Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.
Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are. I can definitely see how biased you are about this. Before you start blasting away about how OP another race is, at least take time to either play it yourself or watch a significant number of high level replays because most of your arguments sound like "TERRAN OP.". Argument Number 1: Mineral CostYou say that hellions *only* cost minerals and a player *only* needs 4-8? Do you even realize how large 8 hellions are? thats 2 Command Centers/Nexii and 2 2/3s Hatcheries. Are you saying that the terran player's ONLY source of EARLY GAME map control which is the Hellions in OP? Do you even factor in the tech and time needed to get out the hellions? (ie. 100 gas to factory then reactor). Argument Number 2: Counterability Who says a zerg NEEDS to make roaches? If you watch replays you can see that most competent zerg players use a combination of queens, zerglings and spinecrawlers(usually just 1) to either forces the terran player back or to outright kill them if he suicides them into your base. Zerglings with speed outrun hellions on creep and hellions ONLY direct counter Zerglings IF AND ONLY IF they are LINED UP, otherwise if surrounded or even a minor sandwich will cause all the hellions to die. If you ARE forced into roaches due to mass mass mass helions then at least know this, the terran player's tech and unit composition are way behind due to all his minerals dumped into hellions not marines as well as having only 1 gas and no starport and Command Center in sight. Argument Number 3: UsabilityA terran player makes hellions because of three reasons: Map Control/Light Harass, Mech Play or All In/Heavy Harass. Map Control is what most macro-oriented terrans would build 2-6 hellions for as in the early early game, the zerg player with the presence of zerglings will have both the mobility and firepower to shut down most types of marine play. This map control allows the zerg to both expand at will and extend his reach via creep spread. This is why they go for hellions because it allows the terran player to force the zerg player to stay home in case of a runby and to deny creep tumors. Secondly, a Mech Play is viable if the terran chooses to go for the Blue Flame Upgrade. Finally, the last play is the All In/Heavy Harass which is what you are arguing against. Like what I said earlier a mass hellion play will be shut down through the use of zerglings, queens and spine crawlers, and if the terran player goes for a mass hellion All In then all a zerg player has to do is to hold it off and not only is the zerg ahead due to economy (on 2 bases, Queens, lack of second Orbital Command), but also in tech (Terran player's lack of starport, Marines, Tanks, Upgrades) as roaches allow for a roach bust play couple this with the terran player's need to expand to stay in the game would lead to a win for the zerg. Argument Number 4: Banshee Tech SwitchThe viability of a banshee tech switch can only happen if 3 things occur: the terran player makes only 4-6 hellions or lose significant marine/tank production and a late expo, the zerg player does not go for a fast lair, and the zerg player overreacts by making too many zerglings. Normally, a quick hellion-banshee double harass can only happen if the terran player creates the bare minimum number of hellions that would illicit a defensive response from the zerg which is 4-6 hellion. This is because the ability to make hellions hinder the production of other important units such as the marine, siege tank, command center and obviously the starport. The need for gas also forces the terran player to go double refinery further limiting his mineral intake. Secondly, a fast lair totally shuts down any type of banshee play because of 2 things: overseers and MUTALISKS. Lastly as a zerg player, it is VERY IMPORTANT to not overreact against the hellions in front of the base. 4 hellions would require about 5-7 pairs of lings as well as a spine crawler and that WILL dissuade any type of runby or he WILL lose a command center's worth of resources. In ConclusionMaking a gas requirement for hellions is highly unnecessary as there are already significant factors that delay any type of hellion play. High level Zerg play also demonstrates the best way to counter and deflect any type of terran hellion aggression. As a former plat zerg player now gold protoss (Yes I'm that bad) please do your research before coming out with another baseless "argument" here as I had no problems whatsoever against hellions. Midgame however, there might be some problems if you aren't prepared. 1: considering how much minerals a zerg needs to stop 4-8 hellions? no its not alot. lets be realistic here. u will need about 1-2 spines almost guaranteed. thats 100-200 minerals right there. u will ned a extra queen to fend off the hellions and to block ramp so thats another 150 minerals. if you are going to do a cim city then u will need a evo chamber (2 evos on certain maps) so thats 75-150 minerals for early evo. so in static defense/cim city alone u have 325-500 minerals. now add in the cost of lings or forced roaches to that mix. so no, i dont think its alot considering what the zerg has to make in order to defend against that many hellions. infact if u force units instead of drones then hellions are doing its job that way as well. you have to think deeper about these things. its not as simple as "4 hellions is a CC! thats alot of money!" think of what those 4 hellions are making the zerg player do. 2: sigh, i really hate when someone says "watch pro player replays for an example!". i can easily bring up pro replays of players LOSING to hellion play just as well as i can pull up a replay of a pro player defending it. that is not the point. sure u can defend 4 or so hellions without making a single roach. u can even defend against 6. but when the number starts to grow beyond a certain point you NEED roaches. you cannot just defend 20 hellions with lings only.... especially if those hellions are blue flamed. the terran would have to mess up royally for lings to ever kill that many hellions as be cost effective at the same time. 3: umm, ok? i know what hellions do and i know what they are used for. but what does that have to do with them costing a lil bit of gas? im not saying to remove the unit from the game -_- 4: "forcing" a terran to go double refinery? is it so hard for u to go quad refinery at ur natural? or are u always on 1 base? im not sure that i understand where u are going with this. since when is double refinery bad? 5: high level terran play also demonstrates that if a high level zerg messes up even in the slightest and lets hellions in his base he can pretty much auto GG. it has happened to idra many, many times. so again, i dont see a point in trying to prove me wrong with VoDs/replays.... just like u can bring up a replay showing a zerg defending against hellions i can pull up a replay of a zerg losing to hellions harshly. instead of focusing/copying pro players and using VoDS/replays to try and prove an argument, please use your mind and ability to think instead. another thing, i know exactly how to defend against hellions. i even stated it in my post. i also stated the hellion, as a unit, is not OP. that was never my argument. my argument mainly applies to the mid-late game when terrans start to mass hellions. when you mass enough hellions you are basically making a entire unit useless in the match up purely because of its "hard counter" feature. that is actually quite insane if u think about it. look at it from a zerg point of view. what unit does zerg has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does toss has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does terran have that completly stops toss from making zealots? 20+ blue flame hellions means zergins are useless. maybe not in low plat and below, but even in high platinum higher terran hellion micro gets better and better and these things start to show. u CAN NOT fight that many hellions with just lings, u need roaches. idc if u can beat 20+ blue flame hellions with 0-0 lings in gold league, all that means is that the terran player is insanely bad (no offense to the gold leaguers) You make it sound like it's hard for Terrans to get more minerals... especially when they have the free mineral button call the mule early game. The larvae mechanic and chrono boost does not compare well in the early stages in the game. That said, I do not think Hellions are too overpowered, maybe a little. My only gripe is that it's a relatively safe opening. The risk/reward ratio is lopsided in favor of terrans. Consider if Terran butchers the strategy and loses 6 hellions...yea that's 600 minerals. But if the Zerg mismicro, he loses the game.... big difference between being behind and being DEAD. Terran's are a mineral heavy race, remember that the core components of terran play is the Marine. Terran's dont have a huge gas sink that they produce like the Collosus, HT, Archon, Baneling, Mutas, Infestors, BL. All the terran gas goes into Terran: Siege Tanks - 150 mins 125 gas Medevacs - 100 mins 100 gas Ghost - 200 mins 100 gas And other races: Protoss: Collosus - 300 mins 200 gas High Templar - 50 mins 150 gas HT Archon - 100 mins 300 gas DT Archon - 250 mins 250 gas Zerg: Zergling Baneling - 50 mins 25 gas Mutalisk - 100 mins 100 gas Infestor - 100 mins 150 gas Corruptor to Broodlord - 300 mins 250 gas Ultralisk - 300 mins 200 gas Then factoring in that a terran player wants to have around 50-70 marines at all times then we can all establish that a terran needs minerals. Mules are not a free mineral source, keep in mind that even though the terran player does get income faster, it does also mean he mines out his bases quite quickly and that will be detrimental in the long run. Speaking of the reactored hellions being a safe opening, it really isn't as all openings are counterable by certain builds its just like saying FFE is just so good against zerg as the risk/reward being the risk is a roach/bane or roach or bane bust and the reward is an expansion and a possible zerg natural deny through a cannon contain then there u have it both the protoss and terran have an equally safe opener against zerg as these races have a quick ranged damage dealer while zerg starts off with the 4 range roach. This doesn't mean that zerg is underpowered though as a quick expanding protoss/terran can be exploited through an easy 3 base zerg. Meaning to say all races have their advantages. You know it really grinds my gears when people cry "boo hoo, terrans will mine out their expansion first" as if it's a bad thing. Are you seriously saying that having a better mining rate is detrimental in any way/shape/form? Terran get the full benefit of all the minerals much earlier than anyone else, which gives them a better army in the early game. If that Terran doesn't expand, then it's his fault for spending beyond his means. There is nothing detrimental about it. You know what grinds my ears? People crying OP and bitching about it, you don't hear me complaining about Chronoboost and Warp-In, or Inject Larva just accept that each race has its own advantages. Besides I'm not even Terran I switched from Zerg to Protoss and even I can see that Terrans need the MULEs to keep up with the other races. Mining faster is all well and good but you have to consider all the infrastructure Terran's have to build while Protosses(like me) need only some tech buildings, between 1-3 Robos and gateways(about 10-15 still less than 10 barracks, 2 factories, 2 starports with addons) or Hatchesries with Queens and tech buildings for Zerg. No you're right about Terrans getting the advantage of more income but the other races have equally powerful ways of spending their relatively lower income. Besides getting more minerals doesn't matter as much to Zerg or Protoss as their important units are very gas heavy instead of the mineral starved terrans. Thank you for that blanket statement that says absolutely nothing specific. I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP. Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong. The mule causes all these problems because considering this is an economy-based RTS...giving one race MORE economy than the others doesn't help. My suggestion is pretty clean, make orbital command cost 50 gas or 100gas. That way Terran will have to choose whether to do that 2rax bunker and delay their orbital, or get the orbital and weaken the strong early game all-ins.
OK, time to re-present the MULE math:
A MULE mines 9 trips @30 mins each. That's 270 minerals in 90 seconds, which is the time it takes to regain energy for the next MULE. That's 180mins/minute which is equivalent to 4.5 workers. So a terran constanly using MULE gets 4.5 workers in addition to their SCVs. Now the conversion from CC to OC takes 35 seconds which is abit more than 2 SCVs. Thus terran expends the ability to produce 2 workers for 4.5 workers. Terrans therefore are ahead 2.5 workers. Now sadly, construction occupies a worker. During the early game after the first MULE is summoned, there will always be at least 2 SCVs on construction duty - one will construct one depot after the next, the other will construct rax/factory/expansion. Thus permanent and perfect use of MULE will allow Terran to mine minerals with 0.5 workers more than they actually have. This equals an extra marine every 2.5 MINUTES. Really nasty stuff. Then again, a single chronoboost will bring protoss even and zergs don't even need to spend their inject larvae on workers, because they spawn larvae 2 seconds quicker than the construction of an SCV, thus they can produce 17 drones in the time it takes for the terran to build 15 SCVs and can use the inject larva for lings, overlords and buildings.
The power of the MULE is for Terran to delay their expansion through super saturation. That makes 1 base plays better (by providing the income of two extra patches), but does diddly squat for macro approaches where terran expands before saturation is reached.
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On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations.
Lets see, roaches cannot go under buildings... and god forbid "Protoss is almost forced to do some sort of AGGRESSION" OH NOOOOOOOO!!! you may as well just gg I guess if the zerg gets up a base on you eh?
You can get your units in position to deal with drops WITHOUT us seeing them, and then when we drop/stim you move your units in = dead medevac/units. It is called a gamble for a reason, yeah it can do some good damage but it can also be a disaster and a huge loss of resources for terran. Not to mention you have the ability to warp in units to any pylon on the map, making dealing with drops WAY easier than us dealing with warp prism harass when our army is out on the field (as someone mentioned earlier). And did you realy just bring the MULE into the discussion for some sort of justification for us losing a full medevac? really grasping at straws there buddy
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On April 08 2012 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:12 Krejven wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop? Eh... reread my post please. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:23 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point. Sure warp prism harrass is good, but it's comparable to cheese. If I invest in a warp prism + 4 zealots in the midgame, my army will be weak and my tech will be delayed. I see your point but if I use a warp prism in the midgame when terran drops occur, I won't have charge and you will have stim. This means that my drop will be cleaned up easily + the chance of my warp prism getting sniped by stimmed marines is far bigger than the chances of a medivac getting sniped as blink is not an option at this point in the game. It's just not as cost effective and it leaves me far more vulnerable. Warp prism harrass is sick good once I have a standing army that can take a straight up fight.
Bro please do not insult White-Ra please don't even go there. But lets be honest here there is a specific factor that lets a protoss adequately defend drops without the need for scouting or uber cannonage and that is the warp-in mechanic. I forgot that last reply and now I'm bringing it in so there as long as Protoss have Gateways that aren't on cooldown then I don't see the reason how a drop can't be defended well. On the other hand warp-prism harass is NOT cheese its a drop just like overlord drops and medevac drops that aim to do economic damage or snipe a key tech building. Terran have a hard time defending against any kind of drop because of 1 thing: Terran bases are filled with infrastructure that block the path of the units. This allows for any kind of defense to be delay enabling ample time for the drop to do damage. And the ability to snipe drop-ships are highly dependent on the control of both the harasser and the defender not by the presence or absence of tech.
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teamhozac, you've listed a lot of whining crappy arguments, suggesting, for example, that roaches answer hellions and yet also failing to take into account that the investment of 4 or so roaches to stop 4 hellions from dealing excessive damage to zerg's economy is at the absolute least EQUAL to the investment of 4 hellions, but just on the topic of the surprise way of trying to deal with drops, it's definitely worth it to try, but then, at the higher levels, if you had any awareness of your own units, you could make your units hop back into the medivac in one quick box-selection and right click and get out of there with no losses after seeing units rushing towards you. Can work vs any race. Please keep in mind that infestors aren't so fast that you're guaranteed to get fungal growth on the medivac, especially as, while zerglings or other ground units might get to the base in time to be prepared in a sneaky position just out of the medivac's sight, infestors are quite a bit slower, so they would often not be just at 9-10 range of where the medivac will drop as soon as it drops, even though the other ground forces can be. At late stages in the game, zergs could sometimes be able to leave an infestor at each base, but you cannot expect us to afford that luxury at earlier stages.
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On April 08 2012 22:04 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 19:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 18:27 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 18:01 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 06:58 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 04:21 Ballistixz wrote:On April 07 2012 21:32 timoi210 wrote:On April 07 2012 14:01 Ballistixz wrote:
problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.
of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.
another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.
Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.
Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are. I can definitely see how biased you are about this. Before you start blasting away about how OP another race is, at least take time to either play it yourself or watch a significant number of high level replays because most of your arguments sound like "TERRAN OP.". Argument Number 1: Mineral CostYou say that hellions *only* cost minerals and a player *only* needs 4-8? Do you even realize how large 8 hellions are? thats 2 Command Centers/Nexii and 2 2/3s Hatcheries. Are you saying that the terran player's ONLY source of EARLY GAME map control which is the Hellions in OP? Do you even factor in the tech and time needed to get out the hellions? (ie. 100 gas to factory then reactor). Argument Number 2: Counterability Who says a zerg NEEDS to make roaches? If you watch replays you can see that most competent zerg players use a combination of queens, zerglings and spinecrawlers(usually just 1) to either forces the terran player back or to outright kill them if he suicides them into your base. Zerglings with speed outrun hellions on creep and hellions ONLY direct counter Zerglings IF AND ONLY IF they are LINED UP, otherwise if surrounded or even a minor sandwich will cause all the hellions to die. If you ARE forced into roaches due to mass mass mass helions then at least know this, the terran player's tech and unit composition are way behind due to all his minerals dumped into hellions not marines as well as having only 1 gas and no starport and Command Center in sight. Argument Number 3: UsabilityA terran player makes hellions because of three reasons: Map Control/Light Harass, Mech Play or All In/Heavy Harass. Map Control is what most macro-oriented terrans would build 2-6 hellions for as in the early early game, the zerg player with the presence of zerglings will have both the mobility and firepower to shut down most types of marine play. This map control allows the zerg to both expand at will and extend his reach via creep spread. This is why they go for hellions because it allows the terran player to force the zerg player to stay home in case of a runby and to deny creep tumors. Secondly, a Mech Play is viable if the terran chooses to go for the Blue Flame Upgrade. Finally, the last play is the All In/Heavy Harass which is what you are arguing against. Like what I said earlier a mass hellion play will be shut down through the use of zerglings, queens and spine crawlers, and if the terran player goes for a mass hellion All In then all a zerg player has to do is to hold it off and not only is the zerg ahead due to economy (on 2 bases, Queens, lack of second Orbital Command), but also in tech (Terran player's lack of starport, Marines, Tanks, Upgrades) as roaches allow for a roach bust play couple this with the terran player's need to expand to stay in the game would lead to a win for the zerg. Argument Number 4: Banshee Tech SwitchThe viability of a banshee tech switch can only happen if 3 things occur: the terran player makes only 4-6 hellions or lose significant marine/tank production and a late expo, the zerg player does not go for a fast lair, and the zerg player overreacts by making too many zerglings. Normally, a quick hellion-banshee double harass can only happen if the terran player creates the bare minimum number of hellions that would illicit a defensive response from the zerg which is 4-6 hellion. This is because the ability to make hellions hinder the production of other important units such as the marine, siege tank, command center and obviously the starport. The need for gas also forces the terran player to go double refinery further limiting his mineral intake. Secondly, a fast lair totally shuts down any type of banshee play because of 2 things: overseers and MUTALISKS. Lastly as a zerg player, it is VERY IMPORTANT to not overreact against the hellions in front of the base. 4 hellions would require about 5-7 pairs of lings as well as a spine crawler and that WILL dissuade any type of runby or he WILL lose a command center's worth of resources. In ConclusionMaking a gas requirement for hellions is highly unnecessary as there are already significant factors that delay any type of hellion play. High level Zerg play also demonstrates the best way to counter and deflect any type of terran hellion aggression. As a former plat zerg player now gold protoss (Yes I'm that bad) please do your research before coming out with another baseless "argument" here as I had no problems whatsoever against hellions. Midgame however, there might be some problems if you aren't prepared. 1: considering how much minerals a zerg needs to stop 4-8 hellions? no its not alot. lets be realistic here. u will need about 1-2 spines almost guaranteed. thats 100-200 minerals right there. u will ned a extra queen to fend off the hellions and to block ramp so thats another 150 minerals. if you are going to do a cim city then u will need a evo chamber (2 evos on certain maps) so thats 75-150 minerals for early evo. so in static defense/cim city alone u have 325-500 minerals. now add in the cost of lings or forced roaches to that mix. so no, i dont think its alot considering what the zerg has to make in order to defend against that many hellions. infact if u force units instead of drones then hellions are doing its job that way as well. you have to think deeper about these things. its not as simple as "4 hellions is a CC! thats alot of money!" think of what those 4 hellions are making the zerg player do. 2: sigh, i really hate when someone says "watch pro player replays for an example!". i can easily bring up pro replays of players LOSING to hellion play just as well as i can pull up a replay of a pro player defending it. that is not the point. sure u can defend 4 or so hellions without making a single roach. u can even defend against 6. but when the number starts to grow beyond a certain point you NEED roaches. you cannot just defend 20 hellions with lings only.... especially if those hellions are blue flamed. the terran would have to mess up royally for lings to ever kill that many hellions as be cost effective at the same time. 3: umm, ok? i know what hellions do and i know what they are used for. but what does that have to do with them costing a lil bit of gas? im not saying to remove the unit from the game -_- 4: "forcing" a terran to go double refinery? is it so hard for u to go quad refinery at ur natural? or are u always on 1 base? im not sure that i understand where u are going with this. since when is double refinery bad? 5: high level terran play also demonstrates that if a high level zerg messes up even in the slightest and lets hellions in his base he can pretty much auto GG. it has happened to idra many, many times. so again, i dont see a point in trying to prove me wrong with VoDs/replays.... just like u can bring up a replay showing a zerg defending against hellions i can pull up a replay of a zerg losing to hellions harshly. instead of focusing/copying pro players and using VoDS/replays to try and prove an argument, please use your mind and ability to think instead. another thing, i know exactly how to defend against hellions. i even stated it in my post. i also stated the hellion, as a unit, is not OP. that was never my argument. my argument mainly applies to the mid-late game when terrans start to mass hellions. when you mass enough hellions you are basically making a entire unit useless in the match up purely because of its "hard counter" feature. that is actually quite insane if u think about it. look at it from a zerg point of view. what unit does zerg has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does toss has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does terran have that completly stops toss from making zealots? 20+ blue flame hellions means zergins are useless. maybe not in low plat and below, but even in high platinum higher terran hellion micro gets better and better and these things start to show. u CAN NOT fight that many hellions with just lings, u need roaches. idc if u can beat 20+ blue flame hellions with 0-0 lings in gold league, all that means is that the terran player is insanely bad (no offense to the gold leaguers) You make it sound like it's hard for Terrans to get more minerals... especially when they have the free mineral button call the mule early game. The larvae mechanic and chrono boost does not compare well in the early stages in the game. That said, I do not think Hellions are too overpowered, maybe a little. My only gripe is that it's a relatively safe opening. The risk/reward ratio is lopsided in favor of terrans. Consider if Terran butchers the strategy and loses 6 hellions...yea that's 600 minerals. But if the Zerg mismicro, he loses the game.... big difference between being behind and being DEAD. Terran's are a mineral heavy race, remember that the core components of terran play is the Marine. Terran's dont have a huge gas sink that they produce like the Collosus, HT, Archon, Baneling, Mutas, Infestors, BL. All the terran gas goes into Terran: Siege Tanks - 150 mins 125 gas Medevacs - 100 mins 100 gas Ghost - 200 mins 100 gas And other races: Protoss: Collosus - 300 mins 200 gas High Templar - 50 mins 150 gas HT Archon - 100 mins 300 gas DT Archon - 250 mins 250 gas Zerg: Zergling Baneling - 50 mins 25 gas Mutalisk - 100 mins 100 gas Infestor - 100 mins 150 gas Corruptor to Broodlord - 300 mins 250 gas Ultralisk - 300 mins 200 gas Then factoring in that a terran player wants to have around 50-70 marines at all times then we can all establish that a terran needs minerals. Mules are not a free mineral source, keep in mind that even though the terran player does get income faster, it does also mean he mines out his bases quite quickly and that will be detrimental in the long run. Speaking of the reactored hellions being a safe opening, it really isn't as all openings are counterable by certain builds its just like saying FFE is just so good against zerg as the risk/reward being the risk is a roach/bane or roach or bane bust and the reward is an expansion and a possible zerg natural deny through a cannon contain then there u have it both the protoss and terran have an equally safe opener against zerg as these races have a quick ranged damage dealer while zerg starts off with the 4 range roach. This doesn't mean that zerg is underpowered though as a quick expanding protoss/terran can be exploited through an easy 3 base zerg. Meaning to say all races have their advantages. You know it really grinds my gears when people cry "boo hoo, terrans will mine out their expansion first" as if it's a bad thing. Are you seriously saying that having a better mining rate is detrimental in any way/shape/form? Terran get the full benefit of all the minerals much earlier than anyone else, which gives them a better army in the early game. If that Terran doesn't expand, then it's his fault for spending beyond his means. There is nothing detrimental about it. You know what grinds my ears? People crying OP and bitching about it, you don't hear me complaining about Chronoboost and Warp-In, or Inject Larva just accept that each race has its own advantages. Besides I'm not even Terran I switched from Zerg to Protoss and even I can see that Terrans need the MULEs to keep up with the other races. Mining faster is all well and good but you have to consider all the infrastructure Terran's have to build while Protosses(like me) need only some tech buildings, between 1-3 Robos and gateways(about 10-15 still less than 10 barracks, 2 factories, 2 starports with addons) or Hatchesries with Queens and tech buildings for Zerg. No you're right about Terrans getting the advantage of more income but the other races have equally powerful ways of spending their relatively lower income. Besides getting more minerals doesn't matter as much to Zerg or Protoss as their important units are very gas heavy instead of the mineral starved terrans. Thank you for that blanket statement that says absolutely nothing specific. I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP. Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong. The mule causes all these problems because considering this is an economy-based RTS...giving one race MORE economy than the others doesn't help. My suggestion is pretty clean, make orbital command cost 50 gas or 100gas. That way Terran will have to choose whether to do that 2rax bunker and delay their orbital, or get the orbital and weaken the strong early game all-ins. OK, time to re-present the MULE math: A MULE mines 9 trips @30 mins each. That's 270 minerals in 90 seconds, which is the time it takes to regain energy for the next MULE. That's 180mins/minute which is equivalent to 4.5 workers. So a terran constanly using MULE gets 4.5 workers in addition to their SCVs. Now the conversion from CC to OC takes 35 seconds which is abit more than 2 SCVs. Thus terran expends the ability to produce 2 workers for 4.5 workers. Terrans therefore are ahead 2.5 workers. Now sadly, construction occupies a worker. During the early game after the first MULE is summoned, there will always be at least 2 SCVs on construction duty - one will construct one depot after the next, the other will construct rax/factory/expansion. Thus permanent and perfect use of MULE will allow Terran to mine minerals with 0.5 workers more than they actually have. This equals an extra marine every 2.5 MINUTES. Really nasty stuff. Then again, a single chronoboost will bring protoss even and zergs don't even need to spend their inject larvae on workers, because they spawn larvae 2 seconds quicker than the construction of an SCV, thus they can produce 17 drones in the time it takes for the terran to build 15 SCVs and can use the inject larva for lings, overlords and buildings. The power of the MULE is for Terran to delay their expansion through super saturation. That makes 1 base plays better (by providing the income of two extra patches), but does diddly squat for macro approaches where terran expands before saturation is reached.
Nobody really complains (or better: should not complain), about MULEs in the early game.
But imagine a 3 base Terran agaisnt a 3 base toss. 3 Mules mean 810 extra minerals for the terran for free while protoss (and zerg) already reached maximum saturation on 3 bases. It's not that Mules mine that much, but they mine from the same patches like SCVs. That#s the strenght of the MULE: More income while having the same base saturation.
As a result, terran can cut SCV production much earlier or bringt them into fights (for reparing, blocking) whereas protoss can't, withouth losing too many minerals ( zerg abuse mass spines against toss to squeeze out more army). Mules also favor SCV trains, making 1/2 base pushes even stronger
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 08 2012 22:31 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. Lets see, roaches cannot go under buildings... and god forbid "Protoss is almost forced to do some sort of AGGRESSION" OH NOOOOOOOO!!! you may as well just gg I guess if the zerg gets up a base on you eh? You can get your units in position to deal with drops WITHOUT us seeing them, and then when we drop/stim you move your units in = dead medevac/units. It is called a gamble for a reason, yeah it can do some good damage but it can also be a disaster and a huge loss of resources for terran. Not to mention you have the ability to warp in units to any pylon on the map, making dealing with drops WAY easier than us dealing with warp prism harass when our army is out on the field (as someone mentioned earlier). And did you realy just bring the MULE into the discussion for some sort of justification for us losing a full medevac? really grasping at straws there buddy
Man, you sure are able to argue rationally.
Last time I checked, buildings cannot kill roaches. You have no idea about PvZ so why do you even talk about it? Watch some games, think some and then make a real argument that addresses issues instead of spouting such nonsense. Tell me how a protoss should defend a maxed out 12 minute burrowed movement roach attack. Tell me and all the pros who just can't find ways to defend against it. I'm sure you have way, WAY better insight than me and all of them. And also people like Stephano and DRG who say that protoss needs a buff.
If your control is horrible, you will lose your medivac. If you do that, you're just plain bad and you shouldn't even think about dropping. Nobody calls dropping a gamble, lol. The resources a terran can possibly lose with a drop are nothing compared to what protoss can lose if the drop is successful.
What you don't understand is that a warp prism delays super important tech for protoss. In the early / midgame a protoss has to turtle heavily and keep his entire army in a ball or it will be crushed. Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell.
I'm saying that when a terran loses minerals, they'll be replenished faster than for any other race. This includes units you drop with. Losing them means little because they're mineral heavy. Get the logic?
On April 08 2012 22:41 timoi210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 21:12 Krejven wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop? Eh... reread my post please. On April 08 2012 21:23 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point. Sure warp prism harrass is good, but it's comparable to cheese. If I invest in a warp prism + 4 zealots in the midgame, my army will be weak and my tech will be delayed. I see your point but if I use a warp prism in the midgame when terran drops occur, I won't have charge and you will have stim. This means that my drop will be cleaned up easily + the chance of my warp prism getting sniped by stimmed marines is far bigger than the chances of a medivac getting sniped as blink is not an option at this point in the game. It's just not as cost effective and it leaves me far more vulnerable. Warp prism harrass is sick good once I have a standing army that can take a straight up fight. Bro please do not insult White-Ra please don't even go there. But lets be honest here there is a specific factor that lets a protoss adequately defend drops without the need for scouting or uber cannonage and that is the warp-in mechanic. I forgot that last reply and now I'm bringing it in so there as long as Protoss have Gateways that aren't on cooldown then I don't see the reason how a drop can't be defended well. On the other hand warp-prism harass is NOT cheese its a drop just like overlord drops and medevac drops that aim to do economic damage or snipe a key tech building. Terran have a hard time defending against any kind of drop because of 1 thing: Terran bases are filled with infrastructure that block the path of the units. This allows for any kind of defense to be delay enabling ample time for the drop to do damage. And the ability to snipe drop-ships are highly dependent on the control of both the harasser and the defender not by the presence or absence of tech.
NEVER would I insult White-Ra
The warpin mechanic is good but let's be honest. Consider the point in the game we're talking about. I don't have charge, I don't have blink. You have stim. So if I warp in units, they will not be cost effective. And if you see that there's too much stuff... just pick up and leave. You've done some damage already by forcing me to use a round of warpins that could otherwise have been important tech. And what damage did you take? None at all.
Warp prism harrass at that point in the game is well... special tactics. As WhiteRa said himself, that has to work. If you have just a few units at home, you can clean up a drop no problem at all because you have stim and I don't have charge. That means your units clean my drop up super cost effectively. Plus warp prisms, once in warpin mode, are easy to snipe especially with stim.
There's just a far bigger risk to warp prism drops because my army is already weaker than yours in the midgame and I have to turtle heavily just to survive. I can't really afford any trades at all because they're gonna be inefficient in terms of resources spent. Sure it can work if you have no units at home at all but once your next round pops out you can clean it up no problem. And if you're smart, you'll know that I'm missing a round of units at home and you'll get more aggressive.
I'm not saying it's impossible to defend by any means, I'm just saying that the midgame is heavily terran favored at the moment, just because terran aggression through drops, multipronged attacks, etc. is far more cost effective than any form of aggression protoss can use, except for maybe all ins.
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EPT
