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If your control is horrible, you will lose your medivac. If you do that, you're just plain bad and you shouldn't even think about dropping. Nobody calls dropping a gamble, lol. The resources a terran can possibly lose with a drop are nothing compared to what protoss can lose if the drop is successful.
What you don't understand is that a warp prism delays super important tech for protoss. In the early / midgame a protoss has to turtle heavily and keep his entire army in a ball or it will be crushed. Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell.
I'm saying that when a terran loses minerals, they'll be replenished faster than for any other race. This includes units you drop with. Losing them means little because they're mineral heavy. Get the logic?
Logic? You are just stating the obvious, "If your control is horrible" That goes both ways pal, if your control is horrible and you dont defend against drops, you get hurt. If our control is horrible, then we lose our medevac... what point does that prove?
"The resources the drop can lose is less than the resources the protoss can lose" OBVIOUSLY, if that wasnt the case why would anyone ever drop?!?!
"What you dont understand is making a warp prism delays important tech for protoss" Ever heard of building vikings vs medevacs?
Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell.
Kinda like doing a drop with 10-20 supply of army? Leaving the front exposed?
Any other genius logic?
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On April 09 2012 00:37 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 22:31 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. Lets see, roaches cannot go under buildings... and god forbid "Protoss is almost forced to do some sort of AGGRESSION" OH NOOOOOOOO!!! you may as well just gg I guess if the zerg gets up a base on you eh? You can get your units in position to deal with drops WITHOUT us seeing them, and then when we drop/stim you move your units in = dead medevac/units. It is called a gamble for a reason, yeah it can do some good damage but it can also be a disaster and a huge loss of resources for terran. Not to mention you have the ability to warp in units to any pylon on the map, making dealing with drops WAY easier than us dealing with warp prism harass when our army is out on the field (as someone mentioned earlier). And did you realy just bring the MULE into the discussion for some sort of justification for us losing a full medevac? really grasping at straws there buddy Man, you sure are able to argue rationally. Last time I checked, buildings cannot kill roaches. You have no idea about PvZ so why do you even talk about it? Watch some games, think some and then make a real argument that addresses issues instead of spouting such nonsense. Tell me how a protoss should defend a maxed out 12 minute burrowed movement roach attack. Tell me and all the pros who just can't find ways to defend against it. I'm sure you have way, WAY better insight than me and all of them. And also people like Stephano and DRG who say that protoss needs a buff. If your control is horrible, you will lose your medivac. If you do that, you're just plain bad and you shouldn't even think about dropping. Nobody calls dropping a gamble, lol. The resources a terran can possibly lose with a drop are nothing compared to what protoss can lose if the drop is successful. What you don't understand is that a warp prism delays super important tech for protoss. In the early / midgame a protoss has to turtle heavily and keep his entire army in a ball or it will be crushed. Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell. I'm saying that when a terran loses minerals, they'll be replenished faster than for any other race. This includes units you drop with. Losing them means little because they're mineral heavy. Get the logic? Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 22:41 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 21:12 Krejven wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop?  Eh... reread my post please. On April 08 2012 21:23 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point. Sure warp prism harrass is good, but it's comparable to cheese. If I invest in a warp prism + 4 zealots in the midgame, my army will be weak and my tech will be delayed. I see your point but if I use a warp prism in the midgame when terran drops occur, I won't have charge and you will have stim. This means that my drop will be cleaned up easily + the chance of my warp prism getting sniped by stimmed marines is far bigger than the chances of a medivac getting sniped as blink is not an option at this point in the game. It's just not as cost effective and it leaves me far more vulnerable. Warp prism harrass is sick good once I have a standing army that can take a straight up fight. Bro please do not insult White-Ra please don't even go there. But lets be honest here there is a specific factor that lets a protoss adequately defend drops without the need for scouting or uber cannonage and that is the warp-in mechanic. I forgot that last reply and now I'm bringing it in so there as long as Protoss have Gateways that aren't on cooldown then I don't see the reason how a drop can't be defended well. On the other hand warp-prism harass is NOT cheese its a drop just like overlord drops and medevac drops that aim to do economic damage or snipe a key tech building. Terran have a hard time defending against any kind of drop because of 1 thing: Terran bases are filled with infrastructure that block the path of the units. This allows for any kind of defense to be delay enabling ample time for the drop to do damage. And the ability to snipe drop-ships are highly dependent on the control of both the harasser and the defender not by the presence or absence of tech. NEVER would I insult White-Ra The warpin mechanic is good but let's be honest. Consider the point in the game we're talking about. I don't have charge, I don't have blink. You have stim. So if I warp in units, they will not be cost effective. And if you see that there's too much stuff... just pick up and leave. You've done some damage already by forcing me to use a round of warpins that could otherwise have been important tech. And what damage did you take? None at all. Warp prism harrass at that point in the game is well... special tactics. As WhiteRa said himself, that has to work. If you have just a few units at home, you can clean up a drop no problem at all because you have stim and I don't have charge. That means your units clean my drop up super cost effectively. Plus warp prisms, once in warpin mode, are easy to snipe especially with stim. There's just a far bigger risk to warp prism drops because my army is already weaker than yours in the midgame and I have to turtle heavily just to survive. I can't really afford any trades at all because they're gonna be inefficient in terms of resources spent. Sure it can work if you have no units at home at all but once your next round pops out you can clean it up no problem. And if you're smart, you'll know that I'm missing a round of units at home and you'll get more aggressive. I'm not saying it's impossible to defend by any means, I'm just saying that the midgame is heavily terran favored at the moment, just because terran aggression through drops, multipronged attacks, etc. is far more cost effective than any form of aggression protoss can use, except for maybe all ins.
Terran is heavily favored midgame because that's when all the bio upgrades and medivacs kick in unlike the Protoss where their strength lies in the late game. Let me ask you this, if you want to nerf the Terran in the mid game at least propose a similar buff to the Terran late game as I can tell you right now Terran t3 is utter garbage against Protoss because of 1 unit: High Templar. BCs and Thors lose half their HP to a single feedback by a HT and Ravens are just massacred due to its 9 range. If you think Terran mid-game should be nerfed then please present a valid nerf and also provide a buff for t3 in exchange for it.
As for the warp prism it can either be used as a normal drop ship(ie. 4 Zealots/2 Immortals/1 Collosus) or a dropship + pylon. Therefore its entirely up to the user on how he is gonna use the Warp Prism. Just like the Medivac, its easy to back out if you feel that its to risky to drop, no harm done to either side. And please don't tell me 4 zealots are worth more than 8 marines as they both cost the same amount of resources and supply so the hit on the army size is about equal when the drop does occur. Once again I'm gonna reiterate my previous statement that the Terran player wants to keep his army in front of his base at all times. Very rarely will you see a Terran, hell any player at all that leaves half his forces in his main in anticipation of a drop. Thats why warp prism harass can be incredibly potent as all you need is a drop of 4 sentries and a warp in of a couple of zealots and to lock down the main by forcefielding the ramp(if the ramp is small enough) or at the very least kill a couple of probes and pick up the zealots/immortals/collosus with the warp prism.
Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that there are ways in which to solve most problems in a match it just relies on the player's ability and his acknowledgement that whatever he is doing isn't working and striving to fix that problem.
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On April 09 2012 00:52 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +If your control is horrible, you will lose your medivac. If you do that, you're just plain bad and you shouldn't even think about dropping. Nobody calls dropping a gamble, lol. The resources a terran can possibly lose with a drop are nothing compared to what protoss can lose if the drop is successful.
What you don't understand is that a warp prism delays super important tech for protoss. In the early / midgame a protoss has to turtle heavily and keep his entire army in a ball or it will be crushed. Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell.
I'm saying that when a terran loses minerals, they'll be replenished faster than for any other race. This includes units you drop with. Losing them means little because they're mineral heavy. Get the logic? Logic? You are just stating the obvious, "If your control is horrible" That goes both ways pal, if your control is horrible and you dont defend against drops, you get hurt. If our control is horrible, then we lose our medevac... what point does that prove? "The resources the drop can lose is less than the resources the protoss can lose" OBVIOUSLY, if that wasnt the case why would anyone ever drop?!?! "What you dont understand is making a warp prism delays important tech for protoss" Ever heard of building vikings vs medevacs? Show nested quote +Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell. Kinda like doing a drop with 10-20 supply of army? Leaving the front exposed? Any other genius logic?
^ fail + Medivac not medvac
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 09 2012 00:52 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +If your control is horrible, you will lose your medivac. If you do that, you're just plain bad and you shouldn't even think about dropping. Nobody calls dropping a gamble, lol. The resources a terran can possibly lose with a drop are nothing compared to what protoss can lose if the drop is successful.
What you don't understand is that a warp prism delays super important tech for protoss. In the early / midgame a protoss has to turtle heavily and keep his entire army in a ball or it will be crushed. Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell.
I'm saying that when a terran loses minerals, they'll be replenished faster than for any other race. This includes units you drop with. Losing them means little because they're mineral heavy. Get the logic? Logic? You are just stating the obvious, "If your control is horrible" That goes both ways pal, if your control is horrible and you dont defend against drops, you get hurt. If our control is horrible, then we lose our medevac... what point does that prove? "The resources the drop can lose is less than the resources the protoss can lose" OBVIOUSLY, if that wasnt the case why would anyone ever drop?!?! "What you dont understand is making a warp prism delays important tech for protoss" Ever heard of building vikings vs medevacs? Show nested quote +Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell. Kinda like doing a drop with 10-20 supply of army? Leaving the front exposed? Any other genius logic?
Yeah, I'm stating the obvious. But you can't even think that through properly.
You just said it yourself. If your control is bad, you lose the medivac. If my control is bad, I can lose the whole game. So where does that leave us? The risk of dropping is less than the risk of getting dropped.
As for the resources... yeah. Once again, think about what that means in terms of risking.
And that third point if yours is just plain retarded, sorry. You build vikings when you need them. What you need when you build vikings are not medivacs... what you need when you build vikings is... are you ready? It's VIKINGS.
What protoss needs midgame is everything they can get in their base in order to defend. I don't need a warp prism in that scenario because it won't help me survive. What could keep me alive are the things I could be building instead of the prism, such as immortals and colossi.
Alright, spot the difference: if a protoss leaves the front exposed in the midgame, he is DEAD. The post below you explains why. If a terran decides to drop with 10-20 supply he leaves his front exposed. Sooooo, nothing. Because midgame protoss cannot be aggressive so you leave your front open while there is no threat to it anyway. You lose little and you risk NOTHING.
Get your logic straight brohan.
On April 09 2012 00:56 timoi210 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 00:37 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 22:31 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. Lets see, roaches cannot go under buildings... and god forbid "Protoss is almost forced to do some sort of AGGRESSION" OH NOOOOOOOO!!! you may as well just gg I guess if the zerg gets up a base on you eh? You can get your units in position to deal with drops WITHOUT us seeing them, and then when we drop/stim you move your units in = dead medevac/units. It is called a gamble for a reason, yeah it can do some good damage but it can also be a disaster and a huge loss of resources for terran. Not to mention you have the ability to warp in units to any pylon on the map, making dealing with drops WAY easier than us dealing with warp prism harass when our army is out on the field (as someone mentioned earlier). And did you realy just bring the MULE into the discussion for some sort of justification for us losing a full medevac? really grasping at straws there buddy Man, you sure are able to argue rationally. Last time I checked, buildings cannot kill roaches. You have no idea about PvZ so why do you even talk about it? Watch some games, think some and then make a real argument that addresses issues instead of spouting such nonsense. Tell me how a protoss should defend a maxed out 12 minute burrowed movement roach attack. Tell me and all the pros who just can't find ways to defend against it. I'm sure you have way, WAY better insight than me and all of them. And also people like Stephano and DRG who say that protoss needs a buff. If your control is horrible, you will lose your medivac. If you do that, you're just plain bad and you shouldn't even think about dropping. Nobody calls dropping a gamble, lol. The resources a terran can possibly lose with a drop are nothing compared to what protoss can lose if the drop is successful. What you don't understand is that a warp prism delays super important tech for protoss. In the early / midgame a protoss has to turtle heavily and keep his entire army in a ball or it will be crushed. Just the fact that I use a round of warpins + delay an immortal/colossus for a prism is huge and leaves me exposed as hell. I'm saying that when a terran loses minerals, they'll be replenished faster than for any other race. This includes units you drop with. Losing them means little because they're mineral heavy. Get the logic? On April 08 2012 22:41 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:31 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 21:12 Krejven wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. Why would he bother dropping if it's a higher chance that he get hurt than the player he tries to drop? Eh... reread my post please. On April 08 2012 21:23 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 21:11 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 20:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 20:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 08 2012 10:01 teamhozac wrote:On April 08 2012 08:44 DarkLordOlli wrote:
In my opinion, something has to be done for protoss to balance their matchups or at least change the way they're constructed. Right now, everything is about all ins. If protoss doesn't all in zerg, they're gonna face a 12 minute maxed out roach army and they're gonna die, period. The only player i've ever seen hold it was HerO but even he could only do it with the most amazing micro I've ever seen in sc2.
I'd consider the lategame armies in PvZ relatively even but far too dependent on single actions like whether or not the protoss gets a good vortex off.
PvT has always been a problem for protoss and Terrans have realized that their biggest advantage lies in the early and midgame before protoss gets their splash out. I really don't know what to do about it. The way terran can just drop you without risking anything is just ridiculous in my opinion. I mean what does the Terran lose if his drop fails? He loses marines, maybe marauders and if he screws up hard, maybe a medivac or two. But what does that matter? All those units are cheap as hell in comparison to protoss units, replenished within seconds and, most importantly, cost effective like nothing else in the entire game. So basically Terran gets to do almost risk free damage. It's not like I can clean up a drop and go counterattack immediately, lol. No way you can break a terran in that phase of the game, you're just gonna suicide your whole army.
Now I'm not saying that protoss is super weak and so on, it's just that the current metagame looks horrifying to a protoss player like me. I've started to throw funky things in there but for them work they have to be extreme in some way, which just seems to be the way to go for protoss right now. Parting's triple Nexus build is the best example for that. Ever heard of forcefielding/forge fast expanding? You do have the most effective counter aggression unit in the game, the sentry, learn to use it. And there is ALWAYS a risk in dropping, if the medevac is spotted by an observer it is an instant 10 supply/however many resources lost, which, especially early game, is HUGE. You also have the most effective scouting in the game with the observer, you can basically see everything that your opponent is doing, 1-1-1 has been figured out big time in TvP, you have received several buffs and Terran has received several nerfs pertaining to this EXACT problem. This post is just straight up biased whining. You really don't have any idea what I'm talking about, do you? Watch recent PvZ to understand what I mean. An FFE is countered by zerg through a super quick third. Protoss is almost forced to do some form of aggression. A maxed out roach army at 12:00 doesn't give a damn about no forcefields bro. A good zerg will come at you with burrowed movement, what do you do then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about PvZ so why do you even bother to type a response? And how hard is it gonna hurt you if you lose those 10 supply + however many resources lost? And how hard can a single drop hurt protoss? Let me break it down for you. In the midgame, when drop play begins, a protoss army will consist of mostly zealots, sentries and maybe a few stalkers. Protoss is typically teching to colossus / high templar at this point. So the units toss has on the field are all horrible at defending drops (keep in mind you do NOT want many stalkers at all because it'll hurt you in straight up fights). The units you drop with are marines and maybe a marauder or two. The total cost of that is about 500 minerals and about 150 gas. The gas is the important part here. Let's say you snipe a robotics facility and lose all your drops. You've done WAY more damage than you took because you killed 100 gas + delayed immensely. As you might know, protoss is also the race that needs gas the most, so basically every single time you destroy something that's worth anything in gas while losing the same amount, the trade is good for you. Now what risks are there to dropping? If I spot the drop with an observer, I can get my units in position. You will see that. You have two choices now: move in, lose the drop. OR. You don't. Let's say I don't spot the drop with an observer because well, you just came from an angle where I had no observer. What damage can you do? --> you can kill me straight up if I 1) overreact, 2) underreact, 3) don't react. If I send too many units, you'll just roflstomp my front. If I send too few units, they will die because MMM is super cost efficient, then I have to send more units while you take out buildings, then you'll stomp my front door. If I don't react at all because of whatever reasons, you just kill everything in my base. All that is possible for the weak risk of what? 150 gas and a few minerals that terran will always have because of MULEs anyway? The risk of dropping is nonexistent compared to the risk of getting dropped and attacked in multiple locations. In response to the dropping issue, I do not see the problem there as you've already answered your own question. Catch the drop and the Terran backs off and no harm done. You do realize that Protoss are heavily favored in the mid-late to late game where the Protoss has t3 to back up GW and the Terran only has MMM maybe a couple of Gs and Vs. You severely underestimate the cost of a drop as 8 marines are 400 minerals and a medivac if sniped is 100 mins 100 gas. Not to mention the build time of all those units and the resources needed to reclaim the what's lost. In all honesty, there are very easy and cost efficient way to defend drops and you seem to have found yet still decide to nerf Terran despite that. Building placement also an important tool as you essentially want the tech buildings to be in the middle of the Main and Nat to easy defense which brings us to the worker harass which can be stopped through scouting or delayed by 1 cannon at each base. Not really that difficult now is it? Sure if I do see a drop coming, it shouldn't be a problem. That's why I didn't say that the whole dropping thing OR terran overall is overpowered, I'm just saying that it's much easier for me to get hurt than it is for the dropping terran. If you really are convinced about that how bout trying warp prism harass and see where that's going. I mean essentially the warp prism is like an uber medivac since it can warp-in units. After at least 20 games of constant Special Tactics then you'll see my point. Sure warp prism harrass is good, but it's comparable to cheese. If I invest in a warp prism + 4 zealots in the midgame, my army will be weak and my tech will be delayed. I see your point but if I use a warp prism in the midgame when terran drops occur, I won't have charge and you will have stim. This means that my drop will be cleaned up easily + the chance of my warp prism getting sniped by stimmed marines is far bigger than the chances of a medivac getting sniped as blink is not an option at this point in the game. It's just not as cost effective and it leaves me far more vulnerable. Warp prism harrass is sick good once I have a standing army that can take a straight up fight. Bro please do not insult White-Ra please don't even go there. But lets be honest here there is a specific factor that lets a protoss adequately defend drops without the need for scouting or uber cannonage and that is the warp-in mechanic. I forgot that last reply and now I'm bringing it in so there as long as Protoss have Gateways that aren't on cooldown then I don't see the reason how a drop can't be defended well. On the other hand warp-prism harass is NOT cheese its a drop just like overlord drops and medevac drops that aim to do economic damage or snipe a key tech building. Terran have a hard time defending against any kind of drop because of 1 thing: Terran bases are filled with infrastructure that block the path of the units. This allows for any kind of defense to be delay enabling ample time for the drop to do damage. And the ability to snipe drop-ships are highly dependent on the control of both the harasser and the defender not by the presence or absence of tech. NEVER would I insult White-Ra The warpin mechanic is good but let's be honest. Consider the point in the game we're talking about. I don't have charge, I don't have blink. You have stim. So if I warp in units, they will not be cost effective. And if you see that there's too much stuff... just pick up and leave. You've done some damage already by forcing me to use a round of warpins that could otherwise have been important tech. And what damage did you take? None at all. Warp prism harrass at that point in the game is well... special tactics. As WhiteRa said himself, that has to work. If you have just a few units at home, you can clean up a drop no problem at all because you have stim and I don't have charge. That means your units clean my drop up super cost effectively. Plus warp prisms, once in warpin mode, are easy to snipe especially with stim. There's just a far bigger risk to warp prism drops because my army is already weaker than yours in the midgame and I have to turtle heavily just to survive. I can't really afford any trades at all because they're gonna be inefficient in terms of resources spent. Sure it can work if you have no units at home at all but once your next round pops out you can clean it up no problem. And if you're smart, you'll know that I'm missing a round of units at home and you'll get more aggressive. I'm not saying it's impossible to defend by any means, I'm just saying that the midgame is heavily terran favored at the moment, just because terran aggression through drops, multipronged attacks, etc. is far more cost effective than any form of aggression protoss can use, except for maybe all ins. Terran is heavily favored midgame because that's when all the bio upgrades and medivacs kick in unlike the Protoss where their strength lies in the late game. Let me ask you this, if you want to nerf the Terran in the mid game at least propose a similar buff to the Terran late game as I can tell you right now Terran t3 is utter garbage against Protoss because of 1 unit: High Templar. BCs and Thors lose half their HP to a single feedback by a HT and Ravens are just massacred due to its 9 range. If you think Terran mid-game should be nerfed then please present a valid nerf and also provide a buff for t3 in exchange for it. As for the warp prism it can either be used as a normal drop ship(ie. 4 Zealots/2 Immortals/1 Collosus) or a dropship + pylon. Therefore its entirely up to the user on how he is gonna use the Warp Prism. Just like the Medivac, its easy to back out if you feel that its to risky to drop, no harm done to either side. And please don't tell me 4 zealots are worth more than 8 marines as they both cost the same amount of resources and supply so the hit on the army size is about equal when the drop does occur. Once again I'm gonna reiterate my previous statement that the Terran player wants to keep his army in front of his base at all times. Very rarely will you see a Terran, hell any player at all that leaves half his forces in his main in anticipation of a drop. Thats why warp prism harass can be incredibly potent as all you need is a drop of 4 sentries and a warp in of a couple of zealots and to lock down the main by forcefielding the ramp(if the ramp is small enough) or at the very least kill a couple of probes and pick up the zealots/immortals/collosus with the warp prism. Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that there are ways in which to solve most problems in a match it just relies on the player's ability and his acknowledgement that whatever he is doing isn't working and striving to fix that problem.
Absolutely. PvT lategame is protoss favored and the high templar is the reason why. Yet I also think that a lot of Terran tier 3 is absolutely unexplored and with mass repair you could make some things work, maybe. I'm not an expert on this at all though so don't take my word for anything.
And yes, I am indeed telling you that 4 aggressive zealots in the midgame are are a bigger investment than 8 aggressive marines while the marines are still way more cost effective. As I said, those four zealots could be in my base defending. And as you already said correctly, those 8 marines serve the purpose they would have served anyway - aggression. If you walk in and attack me, those 4 zealots can make a huge difference.
Let's think the situation through to an extreme. I drop 4 zealots in your base so you decide to drop me and attack my front at the same time. While those four zealots do damage in your base, you straight up KILL ME because I used a round of warpins aggressively, I delayed an immortal / colossus and I have to split my forces which always always favors Terran. As a smart player, you will know these things and do exactly what I just said. Now we are in a base trade scenario where you have killed my entire army, are in my base and what I have is... 4 zealots in yours. Through luck of the draw, you can lift your buildings and win because zealots don't hit air. I can also kill all your SCV's but through luck of the draw you have mules.
No, warp prisms in the midgame are special tactics for a reason and I haven't seen anybody, not even WhiteRa himself, use them against Terran midgame since he started realizing that he's just gonna die if he does it.
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On April 09 2012 00:17 ooozer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 22:04 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 08 2012 19:18 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 18:27 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 18:01 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 17:53 timoi210 wrote:On April 08 2012 06:58 neoghaleon55 wrote:On April 08 2012 04:21 Ballistixz wrote:On April 07 2012 21:32 timoi210 wrote:On April 07 2012 14:01 Ballistixz wrote:
problem: Hellions are way to strong for there cost. if a hellion gets inside of a zerg base at all they can be insanely cost effective. 2 hellions alone can easily mess over the zerg economy if the zerg player messes up even slightly. this is why u have players basically suiciding/throwing away 5-6 hellions (sometimes even as much as 8) at a time to destroy drones. why? because hellions only cost minerals, so as long as u kill a significant amount of drones (which you WILL if u get that many hellions in a zerg base) they have more then payed for themselves. not only that but mules make hellions that much more powerful for there cost.
of course zerg can stop this by blocking the ramp with queens or with sim city spines/evos, but the zerg better make damn sure that he doesn't screw up at all with his blockade or otherwise it can be game ending. which brings me to my next point. if u make enough hellions the zerg is basically forced to make roaches to counter it. a mineral heavy unit is forcing you to make gas heavy units, something that should never happen IMHO. not only that but lets assume that the zerg messed up and didnt block off his ramp in time and 4 hellions get in. just 400 minerals and its pretty much game over for zerg as there is no real way to fight against it with slow lings. hell, even 2 hellions (200 minerals) can potentially end the game for zerg. again, YES IT CAN BE STOPED, BUT, the fact that 200-400 minerals worth of units are able to END THE GAME just because u messed up ur wall/block is disgusting.
another problem is that since hellions only cost minerals a terran can easily make other gas heavy harass units like banshee. while you're heavily focused on defending against hellions the terran can just start making banshees for a secondary harass or he just start making tanks for a push. no real risk involved for the terran even if he loses all of his hellions. the mere presence of hellions will force zerg to stop making drones and keep him from taking a 3rd really fast. that is fine and dandy, but not for the hellions cost.. the fact that hellions only cost minerals is the main and only problem with the unit.
Solution: very simple, have hellions cost gas. 100 minerals and 50 gas per hellion seems reasonable. hell, even 100 minerals and 25 gas at the very least. like i said before, hellions are way to powerful against zerg to be mineral only. get enough of them and they make zerglings virtually useless on top of being a potential instant early game ender. having hellions cost gas however justifies all of this imo. terrans will no longer just throw away hellions because they know they can end the game if they do. they will be more protective of there hellions and smarter with them.
Side effect: gas heavy terran builds would probably be delayed by a good amount of time if the terran goes hellion focused. but this isnt really a bad thing, i feel that out of all the 3 races, terran is by far the most versatile and can adapt to just about any kind of build change quite easily. fewer hellions might also be produced off of 1 base play, but that is the entire point. massing 10+ hellions off of 1 base and is kinda ridiculous given that they are almost as fast as speedlings and have a very good aoe on top of that. so having them cost gas justify how powerful they are. I can definitely see how biased you are about this. Before you start blasting away about how OP another race is, at least take time to either play it yourself or watch a significant number of high level replays because most of your arguments sound like "TERRAN OP.". Argument Number 1: Mineral CostYou say that hellions *only* cost minerals and a player *only* needs 4-8? Do you even realize how large 8 hellions are? thats 2 Command Centers/Nexii and 2 2/3s Hatcheries. Are you saying that the terran player's ONLY source of EARLY GAME map control which is the Hellions in OP? Do you even factor in the tech and time needed to get out the hellions? (ie. 100 gas to factory then reactor). Argument Number 2: Counterability Who says a zerg NEEDS to make roaches? If you watch replays you can see that most competent zerg players use a combination of queens, zerglings and spinecrawlers(usually just 1) to either forces the terran player back or to outright kill them if he suicides them into your base. Zerglings with speed outrun hellions on creep and hellions ONLY direct counter Zerglings IF AND ONLY IF they are LINED UP, otherwise if surrounded or even a minor sandwich will cause all the hellions to die. If you ARE forced into roaches due to mass mass mass helions then at least know this, the terran player's tech and unit composition are way behind due to all his minerals dumped into hellions not marines as well as having only 1 gas and no starport and Command Center in sight. Argument Number 3: UsabilityA terran player makes hellions because of three reasons: Map Control/Light Harass, Mech Play or All In/Heavy Harass. Map Control is what most macro-oriented terrans would build 2-6 hellions for as in the early early game, the zerg player with the presence of zerglings will have both the mobility and firepower to shut down most types of marine play. This map control allows the zerg to both expand at will and extend his reach via creep spread. This is why they go for hellions because it allows the terran player to force the zerg player to stay home in case of a runby and to deny creep tumors. Secondly, a Mech Play is viable if the terran chooses to go for the Blue Flame Upgrade. Finally, the last play is the All In/Heavy Harass which is what you are arguing against. Like what I said earlier a mass hellion play will be shut down through the use of zerglings, queens and spine crawlers, and if the terran player goes for a mass hellion All In then all a zerg player has to do is to hold it off and not only is the zerg ahead due to economy (on 2 bases, Queens, lack of second Orbital Command), but also in tech (Terran player's lack of starport, Marines, Tanks, Upgrades) as roaches allow for a roach bust play couple this with the terran player's need to expand to stay in the game would lead to a win for the zerg. Argument Number 4: Banshee Tech SwitchThe viability of a banshee tech switch can only happen if 3 things occur: the terran player makes only 4-6 hellions or lose significant marine/tank production and a late expo, the zerg player does not go for a fast lair, and the zerg player overreacts by making too many zerglings. Normally, a quick hellion-banshee double harass can only happen if the terran player creates the bare minimum number of hellions that would illicit a defensive response from the zerg which is 4-6 hellion. This is because the ability to make hellions hinder the production of other important units such as the marine, siege tank, command center and obviously the starport. The need for gas also forces the terran player to go double refinery further limiting his mineral intake. Secondly, a fast lair totally shuts down any type of banshee play because of 2 things: overseers and MUTALISKS. Lastly as a zerg player, it is VERY IMPORTANT to not overreact against the hellions in front of the base. 4 hellions would require about 5-7 pairs of lings as well as a spine crawler and that WILL dissuade any type of runby or he WILL lose a command center's worth of resources. In ConclusionMaking a gas requirement for hellions is highly unnecessary as there are already significant factors that delay any type of hellion play. High level Zerg play also demonstrates the best way to counter and deflect any type of terran hellion aggression. As a former plat zerg player now gold protoss (Yes I'm that bad) please do your research before coming out with another baseless "argument" here as I had no problems whatsoever against hellions. Midgame however, there might be some problems if you aren't prepared. 1: considering how much minerals a zerg needs to stop 4-8 hellions? no its not alot. lets be realistic here. u will need about 1-2 spines almost guaranteed. thats 100-200 minerals right there. u will ned a extra queen to fend off the hellions and to block ramp so thats another 150 minerals. if you are going to do a cim city then u will need a evo chamber (2 evos on certain maps) so thats 75-150 minerals for early evo. so in static defense/cim city alone u have 325-500 minerals. now add in the cost of lings or forced roaches to that mix. so no, i dont think its alot considering what the zerg has to make in order to defend against that many hellions. infact if u force units instead of drones then hellions are doing its job that way as well. you have to think deeper about these things. its not as simple as "4 hellions is a CC! thats alot of money!" think of what those 4 hellions are making the zerg player do. 2: sigh, i really hate when someone says "watch pro player replays for an example!". i can easily bring up pro replays of players LOSING to hellion play just as well as i can pull up a replay of a pro player defending it. that is not the point. sure u can defend 4 or so hellions without making a single roach. u can even defend against 6. but when the number starts to grow beyond a certain point you NEED roaches. you cannot just defend 20 hellions with lings only.... especially if those hellions are blue flamed. the terran would have to mess up royally for lings to ever kill that many hellions as be cost effective at the same time. 3: umm, ok? i know what hellions do and i know what they are used for. but what does that have to do with them costing a lil bit of gas? im not saying to remove the unit from the game -_- 4: "forcing" a terran to go double refinery? is it so hard for u to go quad refinery at ur natural? or are u always on 1 base? im not sure that i understand where u are going with this. since when is double refinery bad? 5: high level terran play also demonstrates that if a high level zerg messes up even in the slightest and lets hellions in his base he can pretty much auto GG. it has happened to idra many, many times. so again, i dont see a point in trying to prove me wrong with VoDs/replays.... just like u can bring up a replay showing a zerg defending against hellions i can pull up a replay of a zerg losing to hellions harshly. instead of focusing/copying pro players and using VoDS/replays to try and prove an argument, please use your mind and ability to think instead. another thing, i know exactly how to defend against hellions. i even stated it in my post. i also stated the hellion, as a unit, is not OP. that was never my argument. my argument mainly applies to the mid-late game when terrans start to mass hellions. when you mass enough hellions you are basically making a entire unit useless in the match up purely because of its "hard counter" feature. that is actually quite insane if u think about it. look at it from a zerg point of view. what unit does zerg has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does toss has that completely stops terran from making marines? what unit does terran have that completly stops toss from making zealots? 20+ blue flame hellions means zergins are useless. maybe not in low plat and below, but even in high platinum higher terran hellion micro gets better and better and these things start to show. u CAN NOT fight that many hellions with just lings, u need roaches. idc if u can beat 20+ blue flame hellions with 0-0 lings in gold league, all that means is that the terran player is insanely bad (no offense to the gold leaguers) You make it sound like it's hard for Terrans to get more minerals... especially when they have the free mineral button call the mule early game. The larvae mechanic and chrono boost does not compare well in the early stages in the game. That said, I do not think Hellions are too overpowered, maybe a little. My only gripe is that it's a relatively safe opening. The risk/reward ratio is lopsided in favor of terrans. Consider if Terran butchers the strategy and loses 6 hellions...yea that's 600 minerals. But if the Zerg mismicro, he loses the game.... big difference between being behind and being DEAD. Terran's are a mineral heavy race, remember that the core components of terran play is the Marine. Terran's dont have a huge gas sink that they produce like the Collosus, HT, Archon, Baneling, Mutas, Infestors, BL. All the terran gas goes into Terran: Siege Tanks - 150 mins 125 gas Medevacs - 100 mins 100 gas Ghost - 200 mins 100 gas And other races: Protoss: Collosus - 300 mins 200 gas High Templar - 50 mins 150 gas HT Archon - 100 mins 300 gas DT Archon - 250 mins 250 gas Zerg: Zergling Baneling - 50 mins 25 gas Mutalisk - 100 mins 100 gas Infestor - 100 mins 150 gas Corruptor to Broodlord - 300 mins 250 gas Ultralisk - 300 mins 200 gas Then factoring in that a terran player wants to have around 50-70 marines at all times then we can all establish that a terran needs minerals. Mules are not a free mineral source, keep in mind that even though the terran player does get income faster, it does also mean he mines out his bases quite quickly and that will be detrimental in the long run. Speaking of the reactored hellions being a safe opening, it really isn't as all openings are counterable by certain builds its just like saying FFE is just so good against zerg as the risk/reward being the risk is a roach/bane or roach or bane bust and the reward is an expansion and a possible zerg natural deny through a cannon contain then there u have it both the protoss and terran have an equally safe opener against zerg as these races have a quick ranged damage dealer while zerg starts off with the 4 range roach. This doesn't mean that zerg is underpowered though as a quick expanding protoss/terran can be exploited through an easy 3 base zerg. Meaning to say all races have their advantages. You know it really grinds my gears when people cry "boo hoo, terrans will mine out their expansion first" as if it's a bad thing. Are you seriously saying that having a better mining rate is detrimental in any way/shape/form? Terran get the full benefit of all the minerals much earlier than anyone else, which gives them a better army in the early game. If that Terran doesn't expand, then it's his fault for spending beyond his means. There is nothing detrimental about it. You know what grinds my ears? People crying OP and bitching about it, you don't hear me complaining about Chronoboost and Warp-In, or Inject Larva just accept that each race has its own advantages. Besides I'm not even Terran I switched from Zerg to Protoss and even I can see that Terrans need the MULEs to keep up with the other races. Mining faster is all well and good but you have to consider all the infrastructure Terran's have to build while Protosses(like me) need only some tech buildings, between 1-3 Robos and gateways(about 10-15 still less than 10 barracks, 2 factories, 2 starports with addons) or Hatchesries with Queens and tech buildings for Zerg. No you're right about Terrans getting the advantage of more income but the other races have equally powerful ways of spending their relatively lower income. Besides getting more minerals doesn't matter as much to Zerg or Protoss as their important units are very gas heavy instead of the mineral starved terrans. Thank you for that blanket statement that says absolutely nothing specific. I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP. Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong. The mule causes all these problems because considering this is an economy-based RTS...giving one race MORE economy than the others doesn't help. My suggestion is pretty clean, make orbital command cost 50 gas or 100gas. That way Terran will have to choose whether to do that 2rax bunker and delay their orbital, or get the orbital and weaken the strong early game all-ins. OK, time to re-present the MULE math: A MULE mines 9 trips @30 mins each. That's 270 minerals in 90 seconds, which is the time it takes to regain energy for the next MULE. That's 180mins/minute which is equivalent to 4.5 workers. So a terran constanly using MULE gets 4.5 workers in addition to their SCVs. Now the conversion from CC to OC takes 35 seconds which is abit more than 2 SCVs. Thus terran expends the ability to produce 2 workers for 4.5 workers. Terrans therefore are ahead 2.5 workers. Now sadly, construction occupies a worker. During the early game after the first MULE is summoned, there will always be at least 2 SCVs on construction duty - one will construct one depot after the next, the other will construct rax/factory/expansion. Thus permanent and perfect use of MULE will allow Terran to mine minerals with 0.5 workers more than they actually have. This equals an extra marine every 2.5 MINUTES. Really nasty stuff. Then again, a single chronoboost will bring protoss even and zergs don't even need to spend their inject larvae on workers, because they spawn larvae 2 seconds quicker than the construction of an SCV, thus they can produce 17 drones in the time it takes for the terran to build 15 SCVs and can use the inject larva for lings, overlords and buildings. The power of the MULE is for Terran to delay their expansion through super saturation. That makes 1 base plays better (by providing the income of two extra patches), but does diddly squat for macro approaches where terran expands before saturation is reached. Nobody really complains (or better: should not complain), about MULEs in the early game. But imagine a 3 base Terran agaisnt a 3 base toss. 3 Mules mean 810 extra minerals for the terran for free while protoss (and zerg) already reached maximum saturation on 3 bases. It's not that Mules mine that much, but they mine from the same patches like SCVs. That#s the strenght of the MULE: More income while having the same base saturation. As a result, terran can cut SCV production much earlier or bringt them into fights (for reparing, blocking) whereas protoss can't, withouth losing too many minerals ( zerg abuse mass spines against toss to squeeze out more army). Mules also favor SCV trains, making 1/2 base pushes even stronger
I'm sure you read the post I responded to. The you find the following quote that responded my post:
I want to make it clear that I don't think any of Terran's unit is overpowered, only early game mule is questionably OP.
Once it gets to midgame, the balance equalizes out fairly well, but early game Terran is absurdly strong.
Now which is it.. early game or late game where it allows terran to delay taking a 4th base? And isn't chronoboost as well as larva inject more potent in the mid/late-game than MULE?
Anyhow... you had your own lapses in logic. I marked them bold in your text. In order to get the oversaturation advantage you are highlighting, a Terran can NOT cut workers earlier than the protoss. If he cuts workers before saturation is reached, MULEs can fill up the gap, but then the Terran is only equal with the protoss with every MULE making up for 4.5 SCVs. So the terran can cut production 13.5 workers before saturation, lets say 12 workers because he still has 1-2 SCVs running around on construction duty. Subtract furthermore the time taken for the conversion we are at 6 workers quicker than the toss and it costs 150 minerals less in total. I'd wager that the average toss to saturate 3 bases can make up the time easily with chronoboost (~10 chronoboosts on nexi). Note that this is the best case calculation that fully excludes the use of PF, scan or supply call down. 150 minerals extra... massive..
Also you claim that Terran can bring SCVs into fights to buffer whereas protoss cannot without losing too many minerals. This is bullshit. The terran income will drop by the same amount as the protoss income as both lose workers. Also I don't know that probes are more expensive than SCVs. Rather the opposite is true: Protoss can recover quicker from workers lost than terran. If you don't believe me, do the math for a simple 2base situation:
32 probes: 1280 minerals per minute
23 SCVs + 2 MULEs: 920 mins/minute + 360 mins/minute = 1280 mins/minute
Both sides use 15 workers to buffer. Both lose 750 minerals in resources.
17 probes: 680 minerals per minute
8 SCVs + 2 MULEs: 320 mins/minute + 360 mins/minute = 680 minerals per minute
The 'we survive on MULEs' you see sometimes only derives from the fact that MULEs that are not called down cannot be killed. Thus if a mineral line gets wiped, the MULEs respawn.
Bottomline: The MULE gives the advantage when bases are saturated. One might even argue, that this is to counter terrans mineral heavy economic load (protoss is much happier on the same amount of bases because the gas and the time is what really matters for a toss) as well as the difficulties in securing far away expansions.
Only in end-end-game situations where minerals can be converted into extra OCs, then workers can be sacced to free up supply. So you can view MULE as the ability of terran to create an SCV that cannot build or mine gas and which costs ~120 minerals, takes 30 seconds to build but costs no supply.
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On April 09 2012 01:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Absolutely. PvT lategame is protoss favored and the high templar is the reason why. Yet I also think that a lot of Terran tier 3 is absolutely unexplored and with mass repair you could make some things work, maybe. I'm not an expert on this at all though so don't take my word for anything.
And yes, I am indeed telling you that 4 aggressive zealots in the midgame are are a bigger investment than 8 aggressive marines while the marines are still way more cost effective. As I said, those four zealots could be in my base defending. And as you already said correctly, those 8 marines serve the purpose they would have served anyway - aggression. If you walk in and attack me, those 4 zealots can make a huge difference.
Let's think the situation through to an extreme. I drop 4 zealots in your base so you decide to drop me and attack my front at the same time. While those four zealots do damage in your base, you straight up KILL ME because I used a round of warpins aggressively, I delayed an immortal / colossus and I have to split my forces which always always favors Terran. As a smart player, you will know these things and do exactly what I just said. Now we are in a base trade scenario where you have killed my entire army, are in my base and what I have is... 4 zealots in yours. Through luck of the draw, you can lift your buildings and win because zealots don't hit air. I can also kill all your SCV's but through luck of the draw you have mules.
No, warp prisms in the midgame are special tactics for a reason and I haven't seen anybody, not even WhiteRa himself, use them against Terran midgame since he started realizing that he's just gonna die if he does it.
Mass repair in the field after HT are out just fails, because 1 storm on your BC = all SCVs dead and BC takes 80 more dmg.
Oh.. and you usual examples are flawed.. if terran has stim and medivacs and you don't have charge/blink, then you have colossi or you have a 1/1 upgrade advantage or you have archons. Or you had a huge miss step before and deserve to die. After an expand, the time it takes to get medivacs and the infantry upgrades is the time it takes to get either of those items. Each will ensure survival against both drops and pressure at the front
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Yeah, I'm stating the obvious. But you can't even think that through properly.
You just said it yourself. If your control is bad, you lose the medivac. If my control is bad, I can lose the whole game. So where does that leave us? The risk of dropping is less than the risk of getting dropped.
As for the resources... yeah. Once again, think about what that means in terms of risking.
And that third point if yours is just plain retarded, sorry. You build vikings when you need them. What you need when you build vikings are not medivacs... what you need when you build vikings is... are you ready? It's VIKINGS.
What protoss needs midgame is everything they can get in their base in order to defend. I don't need a warp prism in that scenario because it won't help me survive. What could keep me alive are the things I could be building instead of the prism, such as immortals and colossi.
Alright, spot the difference: if a protoss leaves the front exposed in the midgame, he is DEAD. The post below you explains why. If a terran decides to drop with 10-20 supply he leaves his front exposed. Sooooo, nothing. Because midgame protoss cannot be aggressive so you leave your front open while there is no threat to it anyway. You lose little and you risk NOTHING.
Get your logic straight brohan.
Youre impossible. Everything youre stating is just your opinion, you act like EVERY SINGLE PvT plays out in these stages... ever heard of a two base colossus/stalker push? One of the oldest builds in the game, if a terran has 2 marauders/4marines/medivac way out of position when it hits, yeah his front door is gonna be hurting bad when those colossus start pounding the front door... simply stating "mid game protoss cannot be aggressive!" is just your opinion, is it the optimal time to hit? maybe, maybe not... depends on what is going on in the game, maybe the terran is taking a fast third and mid game agression is exactly what is needed to win. You act like just because we have the ability to drop means you can never leave your base, but you have warp ins, and you can decide exactly what units are needed AND where. I am pretty sure you will probably just reword everything I wrote and say something about MULEs or some nonsense so I probably will not respond unless you actually use some LOGIC, as you like to call it.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 09 2012 01:41 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Absolutely. PvT lategame is protoss favored and the high templar is the reason why. Yet I also think that a lot of Terran tier 3 is absolutely unexplored and with mass repair you could make some things work, maybe. I'm not an expert on this at all though so don't take my word for anything.
And yes, I am indeed telling you that 4 aggressive zealots in the midgame are are a bigger investment than 8 aggressive marines while the marines are still way more cost effective. As I said, those four zealots could be in my base defending. And as you already said correctly, those 8 marines serve the purpose they would have served anyway - aggression. If you walk in and attack me, those 4 zealots can make a huge difference.
Let's think the situation through to an extreme. I drop 4 zealots in your base so you decide to drop me and attack my front at the same time. While those four zealots do damage in your base, you straight up KILL ME because I used a round of warpins aggressively, I delayed an immortal / colossus and I have to split my forces which always always favors Terran. As a smart player, you will know these things and do exactly what I just said. Now we are in a base trade scenario where you have killed my entire army, are in my base and what I have is... 4 zealots in yours. Through luck of the draw, you can lift your buildings and win because zealots don't hit air. I can also kill all your SCV's but through luck of the draw you have mules.
No, warp prisms in the midgame are special tactics for a reason and I haven't seen anybody, not even WhiteRa himself, use them against Terran midgame since he started realizing that he's just gonna die if he does it. Mass repair in the field after HT are out just fails, because 1 storm on your BC = all SCVs dead and BC takes 80 more dmg. Oh.. and you usual examples are flawed.. if terran has stim and medivacs and you don't have charge/blink, then you have colossi or you have a 1/1 upgrade advantage or you have archons. Or you had a huge miss step before and deserve to die. After an expand, the time it takes to get medivacs and the infantry upgrades is the time it takes to get either of those items. Each will ensure survival against both drops and pressure at the front
How do colossi or 1/1 upgrades ensure survival against multipronged aggression? If you watched the second GSTL game between MKP and Parting, that's the scenario I mean. MKP attacked the front and dropped at the same time and Parting just barely survived while MKP could comfortably take a third because there's no way in hell Parting could ever be aggressive. Neither charge nor blink ensure survival against multipronged attacks, they just make it easier. Stalkers might defend drops but the more stalkers you have, the weaker your army is. Archons in small numbers don't even matter against a big frontal attack.
Again. What I'm saying is not that multipronged attacks cannot be defended. I'm arguing that a terran is not really risking anything with those attacks while protoss can still simply die to them.
On April 09 2012 01:50 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, I'm stating the obvious. But you can't even think that through properly.
You just said it yourself. If your control is bad, you lose the medivac. If my control is bad, I can lose the whole game. So where does that leave us? The risk of dropping is less than the risk of getting dropped.
As for the resources... yeah. Once again, think about what that means in terms of risking.
And that third point if yours is just plain retarded, sorry. You build vikings when you need them. What you need when you build vikings are not medivacs... what you need when you build vikings is... are you ready? It's VIKINGS.
What protoss needs midgame is everything they can get in their base in order to defend. I don't need a warp prism in that scenario because it won't help me survive. What could keep me alive are the things I could be building instead of the prism, such as immortals and colossi.
Alright, spot the difference: if a protoss leaves the front exposed in the midgame, he is DEAD. The post below you explains why. If a terran decides to drop with 10-20 supply he leaves his front exposed. Sooooo, nothing. Because midgame protoss cannot be aggressive so you leave your front open while there is no threat to it anyway. You lose little and you risk NOTHING.
Get your logic straight brohan. Youre impossible. Everything youre stating is just your opinion, you act like EVERY SINGLE PvT plays out in these stages... ever heard of a two base colossus/stalker push? One of the oldest builds in the game, if a terran has 2 marauders/4marines/medivac way out of position when it hits, yeah his front door is gonna be hurting bad when those colossus start pounding the front door... simply stating "mid game protoss cannot be aggressive!" is just your opinion, is it the optimal time to hit? maybe, maybe not... depends on what is going on in the game, maybe the terran is taking a fast third and mid game agression is exactly what is needed to win. You act like just because we have the ability to drop means you can never leave your base, but you have warp ins, and you can decide exactly what units are needed AND where. I am pretty sure you will probably just reword everything I wrote and say something about MULEs or some nonsense so I probably will not respond unless you actually use some LOGIC, as you like to call it.
Lol. Man.
Did you see the IEM finals with Puma vs MC? Two of those games MC just flat out died because he was aggressive and Puma dropped in his base. No warp in mechanic can save you when you're out of position and two medivacs unload stuff in your base. MC did a two base colossus push in that game, funny you bring that up. Because even though TWO medivacs full of units were in MC's base, Puma still crushed MC's army when it attacked. That's why I said protoss cannot be aggressive. Every aggression you do midgame will leave you vulnerable. Sure you CAN be aggressive but you should consider that cheese or even all in in some situations and I'm talking about standard macro games here. If I wanted to know how to all in, I wouldn't be wasting my time with you.
What you don't understand is that protoss can't leave their base because of a) drops and because b) a terran midgame army is simply stronger. I need to stay in my base because I can forcefield there, your reinforcements are slow so I can delay while at the same time be in position to defend against drops.
In midgame PvT, a terran army will be out on the map, being aggressive and there's a reason for that - it's that the army for a terran is stronger at that point. So no, protoss cannot be aggressive without risking to lose their entire base and army at the same time.
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On April 09 2012 01:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:41 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 09 2012 01:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Absolutely. PvT lategame is protoss favored and the high templar is the reason why. Yet I also think that a lot of Terran tier 3 is absolutely unexplored and with mass repair you could make some things work, maybe. I'm not an expert on this at all though so don't take my word for anything.
And yes, I am indeed telling you that 4 aggressive zealots in the midgame are are a bigger investment than 8 aggressive marines while the marines are still way more cost effective. As I said, those four zealots could be in my base defending. And as you already said correctly, those 8 marines serve the purpose they would have served anyway - aggression. If you walk in and attack me, those 4 zealots can make a huge difference.
Let's think the situation through to an extreme. I drop 4 zealots in your base so you decide to drop me and attack my front at the same time. While those four zealots do damage in your base, you straight up KILL ME because I used a round of warpins aggressively, I delayed an immortal / colossus and I have to split my forces which always always favors Terran. As a smart player, you will know these things and do exactly what I just said. Now we are in a base trade scenario where you have killed my entire army, are in my base and what I have is... 4 zealots in yours. Through luck of the draw, you can lift your buildings and win because zealots don't hit air. I can also kill all your SCV's but through luck of the draw you have mules.
No, warp prisms in the midgame are special tactics for a reason and I haven't seen anybody, not even WhiteRa himself, use them against Terran midgame since he started realizing that he's just gonna die if he does it. Mass repair in the field after HT are out just fails, because 1 storm on your BC = all SCVs dead and BC takes 80 more dmg. Oh.. and you usual examples are flawed.. if terran has stim and medivacs and you don't have charge/blink, then you have colossi or you have a 1/1 upgrade advantage or you have archons. Or you had a huge miss step before and deserve to die. After an expand, the time it takes to get medivacs and the infantry upgrades is the time it takes to get either of those items. Each will ensure survival against both drops and pressure at the front How do colossi or 1/1 upgrades ensure survival against multipronged aggression? If you watched the second GSTL game between MKP and Parting, that's the scenario I mean. MKP attacked the front and dropped at the same time and Parting just barely survived while MKP could comfortably take a third because there's no way in hell Parting could ever be aggressive. Neither charge nor blink ensure survival against multipronged attacks, they just make it easier. Stalkers might defend drops but the more stalkers you have, the weaker your army is. Archons in small numbers don't even matter against a big frontal attack. Again. What I'm saying is not that multipronged attacks cannot be defended. I'm arguing that a terran is not really risking anything with those attacks while protoss can still simply die to them.
So because MKP outplayed/out-multitasked his opponent, youre saying medivacs/drops are OP? How is that any different than if parting were to have attacked the front while dropping a zealot bomb into the main? It is the same thing, protoss players for whatever reason just dont feel the need to use this play as much as they should
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In midgame PvT, a terran army will be out on the map, being aggressive and there's a reason for that - it's that the army for a terran is stronger at that point. So no, protoss cannot be aggressive without risking to lose their entire base and army at the same time.
So while they are out on the map why dont you drop a clown car full of dts into his main, forcefield your natural, and win? How is it ANY different from the protoss having his army out of position and getting dropped? your comparing apples to apples but for some reason prtoss apples are always rotten in YOUR opinion, stop being silly
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 09 2012 02:14 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 01:56 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 09 2012 01:41 Thrombozyt wrote:On April 09 2012 01:26 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Absolutely. PvT lategame is protoss favored and the high templar is the reason why. Yet I also think that a lot of Terran tier 3 is absolutely unexplored and with mass repair you could make some things work, maybe. I'm not an expert on this at all though so don't take my word for anything.
And yes, I am indeed telling you that 4 aggressive zealots in the midgame are are a bigger investment than 8 aggressive marines while the marines are still way more cost effective. As I said, those four zealots could be in my base defending. And as you already said correctly, those 8 marines serve the purpose they would have served anyway - aggression. If you walk in and attack me, those 4 zealots can make a huge difference.
Let's think the situation through to an extreme. I drop 4 zealots in your base so you decide to drop me and attack my front at the same time. While those four zealots do damage in your base, you straight up KILL ME because I used a round of warpins aggressively, I delayed an immortal / colossus and I have to split my forces which always always favors Terran. As a smart player, you will know these things and do exactly what I just said. Now we are in a base trade scenario where you have killed my entire army, are in my base and what I have is... 4 zealots in yours. Through luck of the draw, you can lift your buildings and win because zealots don't hit air. I can also kill all your SCV's but through luck of the draw you have mules.
No, warp prisms in the midgame are special tactics for a reason and I haven't seen anybody, not even WhiteRa himself, use them against Terran midgame since he started realizing that he's just gonna die if he does it. Mass repair in the field after HT are out just fails, because 1 storm on your BC = all SCVs dead and BC takes 80 more dmg. Oh.. and you usual examples are flawed.. if terran has stim and medivacs and you don't have charge/blink, then you have colossi or you have a 1/1 upgrade advantage or you have archons. Or you had a huge miss step before and deserve to die. After an expand, the time it takes to get medivacs and the infantry upgrades is the time it takes to get either of those items. Each will ensure survival against both drops and pressure at the front How do colossi or 1/1 upgrades ensure survival against multipronged aggression? If you watched the second GSTL game between MKP and Parting, that's the scenario I mean. MKP attacked the front and dropped at the same time and Parting just barely survived while MKP could comfortably take a third because there's no way in hell Parting could ever be aggressive. Neither charge nor blink ensure survival against multipronged attacks, they just make it easier. Stalkers might defend drops but the more stalkers you have, the weaker your army is. Archons in small numbers don't even matter against a big frontal attack. Again. What I'm saying is not that multipronged attacks cannot be defended. I'm arguing that a terran is not really risking anything with those attacks while protoss can still simply die to them. So because MKP outplayed/out-multitasked his opponent, youre saying medivacs/drops are OP? How is that any different than if parting were to have attacked the front while dropping a zealot bomb into the main? It is the same thing, protoss players for whatever reason just dont feel the need to use this play as much as they should
Who said medivacs/drops are OP? Where the hell do you even read that?
I'm telling you how that's different - Parting simply cannot attack the front and drop at the same time because a terran army is stronger and will kill both the drop and the army cost effectively which means a simple counterattack wins the terran the game. HOLY batman, that's just how it is. Ask anybody.
On April 09 2012 02:18 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +In midgame PvT, a terran army will be out on the map, being aggressive and there's a reason for that - it's that the army for a terran is stronger at that point. So no, protoss cannot be aggressive without risking to lose their entire base and army at the same time. So while they are out on the map why dont you drop a clown car full of dts into his main, forcefield your natural, and win? How is it ANY different from the protoss having his army out of position and getting dropped? your comparing apples to apples but for some reason prtoss apples are always rotten in YOUR opinion, stop being silly
And this is where I stop arguing with you. You clearly don't understand the game at all.
If I invest in DTs to drop into your main, my army at home will be so weak that you can just 1a your way into my base and win. You see, sentries cost 100 gas and DTs cost 125 gas. If I invest in DTs, I won't have many sentries, therefore few forcefields, therefore nothing to stop you. At least try to understand the game before you argue in a balance thread.
What I'm bringing up is an issue most protoss players have, even at the highest levels. What you're bringing up in response is just pure ignorance.
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I'm telling you how that's different - Parting simply cannot attack the front and drop at the same time because a terran army is stronger and will kill both the drop and the army cost effectively
So what youre saying is terran armies are always stronger than protoss armies?
pure ignorance
fixed...
DTs was just theoretical it wasnt specific, use zealots for all I care, you are the one being ignorant, not me... I think you can use 2-3 ffs at your natural on most maps and completely wall off, I really am not seeing what the issue is. I have had it done to me plenty of times on shakuras, I hit the front, he FF and keeps me out, he sends a clown car full of goons to my main and skull rapes everything there because my army is waaaay out of position. Even better, he can warp even more reinforcements into my main and continue raping me, without even giving me a kiss afterwards... stop getting all emotional I am not trying to attack you as a person, but your point of reference is off and stating that protoss cannot multiprong attack is IGNORANCE on your part.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 09 2012 02:38 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +I'm telling you how that's different - Parting simply cannot attack the front and drop at the same time because a terran army is stronger and will kill both the drop and the army cost effectively So what youre saying is terran armies are always stronger than protoss armies? fixed... DTs was just theoretical it wasnt specific, use zealots for all I care, you are the one being ignorant, not me... I think you can use 2-3 ffs at your natural on most maps and completely wall off, I really am not seeing what the issue is. I have had it done to me plenty of times on shakuras, I hit the front, he FF and keeps me out, he sends a clown car full of goons to my main and skull rapes everything there because my army is waaaay out of position. Even better, he can warp even more reinforcements into my main and continue raping me, without even giving me a kiss afterwards... stop getting all emotional I am not trying to attack you as a person, but your point of reference is off and stating that protoss cannot multiprong attack is IGNORANCE on your part.
"So what youre saying is terran armies are always stronger than protoss armies?" - early / midgame terran armies. Read what I'm saying and try to understand it.
"I have had it done to me plenty of times on shakuras, I hit the front, he FF and keeps me out, he sends a clown car full of goons to my main and skull rapes everything there because my army is waaaay out of position." - yeah, I can forcefield you out if you just attack the front. That's where drops come into play for you. Dropships can circumvent forcefields. If I send anything out in that phase of the game, I have less to defend with in a phase of the game when all a terran needs to win is a weakness in my defense and a warp prism drop sure as hell doesn't strengthen my defense. Every further unit I warp into your base leaves me more and more vulnerable to a point where it's game over for me if you just attack.
"stop getting all emotional" - lol, who is? I don't care if you're attacking me personally or not, your arguments don't make sense and you either don't understand the matchup well enough or you purposely ignore facts. Now that I know that every reply from my side is a waste of time. So yeah.
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On April 09 2012 02:38 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +I'm telling you how that's different - Parting simply cannot attack the front and drop at the same time because a terran army is stronger and will kill both the drop and the army cost effectively So what youre saying is terran armies are always stronger than protoss armies? fixed... DTs was just theoretical it wasnt specific, use zealots for all I care, you are the one being ignorant, not me... I think you can use 2-3 ffs at your natural on most maps and completely wall off, I really am not seeing what the issue is. I have had it done to me plenty of times on shakuras, I hit the front, he FF and keeps me out, he sends a clown car full of goons to my main and skull rapes everything there because my army is waaaay out of position. Even better, he can warp even more reinforcements into my main and continue raping me, without even giving me a kiss afterwards... stop getting all emotional I am not trying to attack you as a person, but your point of reference is off and stating that protoss cannot multiprong attack is IGNORANCE on your part.
Of course they can, but it's far easier for Terran. If a Protoss gets 2 prisms he has less colossi than normal, whereas Terrans NEED to make medivacs regardless. The reason T drops are far stronger than P drops are because of this + the fact that in small numbers a Terran army completely CRUSHES a Protoss gateway army.
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On April 09 2012 02:55 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 02:38 teamhozac wrote:I'm telling you how that's different - Parting simply cannot attack the front and drop at the same time because a terran army is stronger and will kill both the drop and the army cost effectively So what youre saying is terran armies are always stronger than protoss armies? pure ignorance fixed... DTs was just theoretical it wasnt specific, use zealots for all I care, you are the one being ignorant, not me... I think you can use 2-3 ffs at your natural on most maps and completely wall off, I really am not seeing what the issue is. I have had it done to me plenty of times on shakuras, I hit the front, he FF and keeps me out, he sends a clown car full of goons to my main and skull rapes everything there because my army is waaaay out of position. Even better, he can warp even more reinforcements into my main and continue raping me, without even giving me a kiss afterwards... stop getting all emotional I am not trying to attack you as a person, but your point of reference is off and stating that protoss cannot multiprong attack is IGNORANCE on your part. Of course they can, but it's far easier for Terran. If a Protoss gets 2 prisms he has less colossi than normal, whereas Terrans NEED to make medivacs regardless. The reason T drops are far stronger than P drops are because of this + the fact that in small numbers a Terran army completely CRUSHES a Protoss gateway army.
Why would you ever get two prisms? lol... I understand the argument of "well if I get a prism I can't get a colossus, or an observer" but that is a weak argument. This game is all about knowing what to make and when, and we have the same challenges in that regard as far as making the right units. Sometimes you gotta take some risks in this game, yeah maybe sometimes you lose to cloak banshees because you made a prism instead of an observer, but thats just the nature of the beast maaaaan
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Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that.
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On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that.
I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from
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On April 09 2012 03:04 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that. I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from
Does it mean that terran's only option is aggression/all in? Cause toss and zerg seem to have two choices in this regard...
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On April 09 2012 03:13 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:04 teamhozac wrote:On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that. I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from Does it mean that terran's only option is aggression/all in? Cause toss and zerg seem to have two choices in this regard...
If you only played in a higher league you would see 3cc from start its totally diffrent you have no idea.
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On April 09 2012 03:25 jax1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:13 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 09 2012 03:04 teamhozac wrote:On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that. I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from Does it mean that terran's only option is aggression/all in? Cause toss and zerg seem to have two choices in this regard... If you only played in a higher league you would see 3cc from start its totally diffrent you have no idea.
3cc still doesn't put you on equal economic footing as the zerg or the toss, since you have no way to pressure them and probably you will end up behind in tech and economy as well.
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EPT
