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You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point.
its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do.
Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!.
lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it.
as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid.
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option...
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing.
i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me.
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On April 09 2012 03:27 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:25 jax1 wrote:On April 09 2012 03:13 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 09 2012 03:04 teamhozac wrote:On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that. I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from Does it mean that terran's only option is aggression/all in? Cause toss and zerg seem to have two choices in this regard... If you only played in a higher league you would see 3cc from start its totally diffrent you have no idea. 3cc still doesn't put you on equal economic footing as the zerg or the toss, since you have no way to pressure them and probably you will end up behind in tech and economy as well.
I dont bealive that at all but i dont have any proof niether do you. But my logic says if terran wouldn't attack in waves and throw away hes whole army and instead make a huge push from 3 cc with sick upgrades it would be better because thats what plat players do. The mules from 3 cc is so good to. Or you can play that syle where you pushing out all the time even stronger becouse your income is gonna be sick with 3 fast cc.
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On April 09 2012 03:27 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:25 jax1 wrote:On April 09 2012 03:13 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 09 2012 03:04 teamhozac wrote:On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that. I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from Does it mean that terran's only option is aggression/all in? Cause toss and zerg seem to have two choices in this regard... If you only played in a higher league you would see 3cc from start its totally diffrent you have no idea. 3cc still doesn't put you on equal economic footing as the zerg or the toss, since you have no way to pressure them and probably you will end up behind in tech and economy as well.
Disagree, I go 1 rax bunker pressure into CC, factory (reactor on rax) CC, and pressure with hellions every TvZ... I realize that isn't quite what was implied but it is a strong build popularized by bomber I believe
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On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Show nested quote +Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid. Show nested quote +
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option... Show nested quote +
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me.
So wait till you mutalisks pop and then clear out the hellions and expand? Not sure why that is so difficult... Or make roaches and do the same thing, that entire wall of text just to say zerglings cant counter hellions? jeebus
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On April 09 2012 03:13 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:04 teamhozac wrote:On April 09 2012 03:00 sieksdekciw wrote:
Hi TL, I am a low platinum terran on EU Server. My friend tells me that terran is overpowered and I have been long since wondering if it is true. I have been losing games left and right to protoss/zerg and when asking what did I do wrong, they all tell me that I played too passively and should have dropped them.
I haven't played much but thought that since terran is supposed to be strong defensively and terran is the race that is behind on workers -> zerg out of two hatches can build 16 workers at a time and protoss can have roughly 1.5 workers more than terran (also, terran workers stay making buildings, while toss workers just start it and can go back to mining). So, terran is constantly behind in economy or scouting (it's either mules or scans, right). But in addition, if terran overextends or expands too early, it is prone to cheeses from the zerg/toss.
So, I lost my games cause I prefer long macro games but for the love of me I don't know how to deal with zealot/archon/storm or baneling zerglinng infestor broodlord. But if I try to put pressure early game, I get squashed by lings /zealot+stalker+sentry. My only choice seems indeed to be drops in midgame.
So, I feel that terran has to win midgame, which is really difficult for me since I always tend to play vs low master/diamond players who are good in defending multiprong drops. Discuss how to deal with that. I feel like I have seen this exact post hundreds of times lol. Go to the strategy forum they have plenty of builds/aggression/all ins for you to choose from Does it mean that terran's only option is aggression/all in? Cause toss and zerg seem to have two choices in this regard...
You just HAVE to pressure zerg and protoss, otherwise they get up a sick economy with an easily reinforcable army, fast upgrades, and then just throw units at you. You CAN NOT let them get to that point, you have to force them to make units to defend, delaying their eco/upgrades/infastructure, and you really should be trying to deny expos/creep spread. For better or for worse its just the way the game is designed, terran HAS to pressure P and Z. To be honest though (not league bashing) Solid macro will get you into diamond, never missing an scv, never getting supply blocked, always keeping money low, etc. Diamond/masters is where you REALLY need to put the pressure on and keep P and Z in check
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On April 09 2012 03:45 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid.
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option...
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me. So wait till you mutalisks pop and then clear out the hellions and expand? Not sure why that is so difficult... Or make roaches and do the same thing, that entire wall of text just to say zerglings cant counter hellions? jeebus
that is the entire point of the argument... please dont respond if ur not going to read or dont know what it is i am arguing.
also, there seems to be a surge of ppl below 20 post count coming into this thread lately and responding just to respond without even trying to read. wonder where they coming from
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why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them?
I cant tell if youre serious or not, but is this the basic gist of your argument?
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On April 09 2012 04:00 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? I cant tell if youre serious or not, but is this the basic gist of your argument?
sigh.
look bro, read. that is all im going to say. i basically repeated and explained myself like 2 or 3 times in this thread and im not doing it again. its not that hard to understand what im trying to get at. read the very first post i made in this thread. if u really dont understand then idk what else to tell u.
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On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Show nested quote +Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid. Show nested quote +
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option... Show nested quote +
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me.
Zerg is all about scouting. 20 BFH don't come out of nowhere. They cost 2000 freaking minerals and at least two factories 1 with reactor 1 with techlab, plus they delay tech, plus by the time they come out they only have a little bit of time to do damage before Mutalisks come out, unless you go Infestor.
Also, Zerglings can go versus Marines in smaller numbers without banelings, similar to how they can win vs Hellions with micro in small numbers. But, when you add Banelings and Infestors vs Marines, they have to add Marauders with really good micro, or Siege tanks with really good micro, assuming your macro is spot on.
The same is true for Ling vs Hellion. Hellions basically hard-counter zerglings with the BFH upgrade as it is, and when they reach critical mass, you need roaches or mutas to take away map control from them or you get contained and you die.
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On April 09 2012 04:03 Fencer710 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid.
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option...
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me. Zerg is all about scouting. 20 BFH don't come out of nowhere. They cost 2000 freaking minerals and at least two factories 1 with reactor 1 with techlab, plus they delay tech, plus by the time they come out they only have a little bit of time to do damage before Mutalisks come out, unless you go Infestor.
whats your point? u know he is going heavy hellion play so maybe he is going mech, why would u make mutas when 4 thors might be just around the corner? same thing with infestors? anyway that is not the point
this is not a argument about "what x unit counters hellion" people.......
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On April 09 2012 04:06 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:03 Fencer710 wrote:On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid.
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option...
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me. Zerg is all about scouting. 20 BFH don't come out of nowhere. They cost 2000 freaking minerals and at least two factories 1 with reactor 1 with techlab, plus they delay tech, plus by the time they come out they only have a little bit of time to do damage before Mutalisks come out, unless you go Infestor. whats your point? u know he is going heavy hellion play so maybe he is going mech, why would u make mutas when 4 thors might be just around the corner? same thing with infestors? this is not a argument about "what x unit counters hellion" people.......
I edited my post, I need to press preview instead of post. >.<
I say that 'roaches or mutas', perhaps you could scout with an overlord and see if it dies to several Thor AA shots or if he has a lot of tanks. If he has tanks, you could go mutas and do a lot of damage. If he has thors, you could go roaches and survive until broodlord/infestor.
EDIT: I did it again. Of course there are a lot of other factors in this, but you still need to pick either mutas to do critical damage and delay the Mech push so that you can drone, get lots of units, etc., or you can go roaches and take his attacks head-on and later get broodlord/infestor to try and crush him.
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On April 09 2012 04:06 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:03 Fencer710 wrote:On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid.
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option...
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me. Zerg is all about scouting. 20 BFH don't come out of nowhere. They cost 2000 freaking minerals and at least two factories 1 with reactor 1 with techlab, plus they delay tech, plus by the time they come out they only have a little bit of time to do damage before Mutalisks come out, unless you go Infestor. whats your point? u know he is going heavy hellion play so maybe he is going mech, why would u make mutas when 4 thors might be just around the corner? same thing with infestors? anyway that is not the point this is not a argument about "what x unit counters hellion" people.......
are you just hiding in your base all game, or something?
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On April 09 2012 04:06 Ballistixz wrote:
whats your point? u know he is going heavy hellion play so maybe he is going mech, why would u make mutas when 4 thors might be just around the corner? same thing with infestors? anyway that is not the point
this is not a argument about "what x unit counters hellion" people.......
Playing zerg versus mech is so much easier if you have a few mutas, they force the terran to invest in enough thors to be safe from any sudden heavy muta transition. More thors equals way fewer siege tanks, and thats what you want.
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On April 09 2012 04:12 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:06 Ballistixz wrote:On April 09 2012 04:03 Fencer710 wrote:On April 09 2012 03:27 Ballistixz wrote:
You wanna be realistic? Ok fine a zerg builds an extra queen, 1-2 spine crawlers, extra lings, 1-2 evo chambers and maybe an extra hatchery, all in all zerg players get to USE those extra units/building in the future and it LEADS to a strong mid to late game. the extra queen whether it be 1 or 2 extra WILL be used for either creep spread or moving it to the new third base that most zergs get if a terran expands after the hellions. The evo chambers WILL be used for upgrades for the zerg army that will benefit them in the future. The extra lings WILL be added onto the zerg army whether they go lingfestor or mutaling. The macro hatchery WILL be an added source of zerg larva for their drone/unit making purposes. For the terran player making for than 6 hellions WILL NOT be an added benefit for his army in the long term unless he is going mech. Which means that the zerg player would have the advantage IF the terran player does opt for a huge swell of hellions. The 1-2 extra spinecrawler WILL be used for the defense of zerg bases in the mid-game in case of drops and eventually (if they aren't killed off) be added onto the spinecrawler wall a zerg player would put if going mutas or BLs. And lets be honest here, how would creating a few extra lings and building an extra queen, a spine crawler here or there and tech buildings that a zerg player would build eventually REALLY hinder the economy of the zerg.
had to highlight that part in bold as it cought my attention. it seems u do not understand the match up all that well and what hellions are actually used for. making more then 6 hellions is pretty much manipulating what the zerg player can do like i said before. if he goes beyond 6 and gets like 10+ then suddenly he has map control. zerglings will never be able to get a good surround on that many hellions unless the terran messes up. so what that means is u can go around and deny expansions and the zerg can do NOTHING about it unless he makes something other then lings... when a terran player gets huge number of hellions he is trying to force roaches, thats the hole point. its the same thing when toss goes early air, he is trying to force hydras, a unit zerg does not want to make, so that colo will roll them. the difference here however is that hellions completely stops zergling production entirely ON TOP of forcing zerg to make a unit they do not want to make. do u have any idea how manipulative that is just from 1 unit? i really dont think u do. Roaches are not the only counter to hellions, have you heard of the mutalisk? Or even the infestor? How about mass zerglings? If you have tunnel vision that the counter to a unit is X unit then I'm sorry you deserve to lose horribly. The help menu suggests that the Ultralisk is the counter to the Marauder but we all know how that turned out to be now do we. And let me emphasize this again: IF THE TERRAN PLAYER QUICKLY MAKES 20 BLUE FLAME HELLIONS AND RUNS IN INTO YOUR BASE THEN HE IS ALL IN AND IF YOU HOLD IT OFF YOU WINS BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRANSITION OUT OF IT!. lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them? banelings "counter" marines, but with superb marine splitting and kitting marines actually can fair quite well agains banelings. banelings do not stop marine production AT ALL. i dont know what league u are in, but mass zerglings do not kill Blue flame hellions once they hit that critical mass. they slaughter INFINITE amount of zerglings. u would seriously have to have ultra bad hellion control to loose 20+ Blue flame hellions against mass zerglings, srsly. i am just going to go out on a limb tho and say ur in gold if u are honestly suggesting to look at the "help/counter menu". NEVER EVER IN UR LIFE try to get help from that thing. its worthless. do not follow the help menu, please for the love of God dont do it. as for that part in all caps bold letters. that is another gold level thing to do. why would u suicide 20 blue flame hellions in a base? thats stupid. the 20 blue flame hellions are for map presence and to force any other unit other then zerglings. why throw that away? please dont do this... its just stupid.
Adding gas to the hellions means 3 things, it forces a second refinery for the terran player, it allows for the zerg unlimited map control for a longer amount of time, and it hurts the early game terran economy and timing. Forcing a second refinery does 2 things, it delays a terran player's army and expansion. Terran is a mineral heavy race as all of the vital terran units cost a ton of minerals if going for Bio. This force of second gas before the starport/engiebays/second expansion/tank production delays the production of Marines and lowers the terran's overall supply. Secondly the zerg player will have a huge advantage of map control which allows 2 things: unhindered expansions and vital intelligence. Not having hellions in front of the zerg's base to delay the third allows for massive creep spread and early thirds, this makes the zerg have a huge boost in economy and map control as the creep allows the zerg to easily defend his third and gives vision of the area, couple this with xel'naga towers gives zerg players a tremendous amount of advantages. Finally it hurts the terran's timing as the terran player will have to wait for the gas to finish to allow for constant hellion production. This will also hinder a terran's ability to go Mech as the other core components such as the Thor and Siege Tank require huge amounts of gas and Hellions are used as a mineral sink. A terran player usually does stay at 1 gas before starport and forcing them to get another refinery makes for another play possible that is the Banshee switch which you were complaining about.
again, why is a 2nd refinery bad....? u have mules, its not like it will hurt u or anything.... and no, it doesnt give zerg unlimited map control. u can still make hellions and u have other forms of harassment. you are honestly making it seem like it is impossible to deny a zerg 3rd base without hellions. please think a little and use ur head instead of copying what is standard among pro players all the time... u still have reapers (whenever they get buffed and become useful again), u still have banshees, u still have marine tank pushes, u still have drops, u still have bunker rushes and so on so forth. terran is a very versatile race with many options . hellion is not the only option...
High Level Play shows that majority of the hellion usage is creep cleaning and expo delaying not suiciding 20 hellions to kill of drones. I don't know what kind of replays you watch but the majority of those I do show a preference of BioMech or Pure Mech rather than All-Ins. The hellion forces roaches idea that you have is hogwash, because as far as I know having a huge amount of hellions means that all his minerals are tied up there and there WILL be a lack of anti-air defense and as we all know, Mutalisks ARE a very common sight in ZvT. In addition to this, Infestors are also a logical choice as it kills off hellions quite easily. As for the forcing other build from terran, I don't suppose you've heard of mech, I hear its the other terran ZvT strategy. People use this mostly as it basically the "counter" to the mutaling play which the zerg building banelings does against the marine.
man, stop talking about "high level play" you are not at a high level, u are only watching vods and ASSUMING this is what they are doing for x reason. stop it, please. its quite annoying. you have no idea why the pro players do what they do so stop pretending like you do and instead speak from YOUR OWN point of view, not a top players point of view like MMA. thats why i am refusing to respond to any more of ur "watch xxx VoD/replay" comments. as i said before, i can show u replays of even stephano being forced into roaches rather then lings and i can show u vods of him defending it. it proves nothing. i am not a pro player nor do i play at a very high lvl and neither do u. i am speaking my own mind and giving my own opinion from my own experiences. as for the rest of ur points in this paragraph, ive already addressed them. u are just repeating what u have already told me. Zerg is all about scouting. 20 BFH don't come out of nowhere. They cost 2000 freaking minerals and at least two factories 1 with reactor 1 with techlab, plus they delay tech, plus by the time they come out they only have a little bit of time to do damage before Mutalisks come out, unless you go Infestor. whats your point? u know he is going heavy hellion play so maybe he is going mech, why would u make mutas when 4 thors might be just around the corner? same thing with infestors? anyway that is not the point this is not a argument about "what x unit counters hellion" people....... are you just hiding in your base all game, or something?
Must be, hes basically crying that he cant blindly make a bunch of lings because he will die to hellions, rather than scouting, or countering that unit, hed rather just come on here and say it is stupid, and rather than actually debate with people hes just tells them they are forum newbs and to go back and read his ranting for 5 pages and we will somehow "get it"
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On April 09 2012 04:15 kyllinghest wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:06 Ballistixz wrote:
whats your point? u know he is going heavy hellion play so maybe he is going mech, why would u make mutas when 4 thors might be just around the corner? same thing with infestors? anyway that is not the point
this is not a argument about "what x unit counters hellion" people....... Playing zerg versus mech is so much easier if you have a few mutas, they force the terran to invest in enough thors to be safe from any sudden heavy muta transition. More thors equals way fewer siege tanks, and thats what you want.
This.
The dps wasted on mutas from the thors also makes the marginally smaller roach army more powerful in comparison.
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lol....... are mutalisk zerglings? are infestors zerglings? no, they are not. where are the zerglings in this scenario? why can i not make zerglings? why should i have to stop making a unit and make a different unit entirely just to "counter" them?
I really think you are just trolling or something with that rant. So what youre basically saying is you just want to keep making one unit all game, even if the opponent makes the counter to that unit and pwns you, its somehow unfair? You should just be able to keep making that unit? I really dont get it... How about this: "I dont WANT to make vikings to counter your broodlords, I want to keep making medivacs, why should I have to stop making medivacs to make a unit to counter your unit?" stupid
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On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels.
So having a range advantage makes it harder for Terran? I don't understand that O.o. Seems like having a range advantage makes micro easier to me. But overall I do feel PvT is fairly balanced (I play Toss btw)
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On April 09 2012 04:26 Treyus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:18 Fig wrote:
Yeah I have wondered about this for a long time myself. It seems like all the micro is in the terran's hands during the late game. Which admittedly makes it hard for the terran player, but it is nice to know that they do have the tools to win even engagements if they have strong enough micro. I wish there was more micro potential for toss to even it out.
One big example of this is the ghost design.
EMP = 10 range
Snipe = 10 range
Now we look at the HT
Storm = 9 range
Feedback = 9 range
This shows that if both players have the same skills, the terran player will get off an EMP before a storm can occur. But this puts a lot of pressure on the terran to land them. If instead each spell had 9 range, then the toss would be required to micro just as much, making the engagement much more interesting and fair for all levels. So having a range advantage makes it harder for Terran? I don't understand that O.o. Seems like having a range advantage makes micro easier to me. But overall I do feel PvT is fairly balanced (I play Toss btw)
The disadvantage comes from snipe and EMP sucking now
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Maybe you guys should focus on discussing real balance issues, not get trolled by one guy who is frustrated with an unit that is generally deemed balanced.
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EPT
