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On March 25 2012 22:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 22:44 Vonarma wrote:On March 25 2012 13:20 Jimbo77 wrote:On March 23 2012 02:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
Problem:
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor combo is insanely had to take on.
Solution:
Fungal growth no longer snares air units but only applies damage.
Side Effects:
Apart from being flat out logical, Zergs will have to make anti-air instead of simply casting chain fungal to to kill drop ships. Might help out the muta style or maybe even hydras.
FG should not affect air at all. Then, FG should affect friendly units as well, it's ridiculous that storm and EMP do while FG doesn't. Zerg now literally doesn't need to think, just FG everywhere. ---------------------- The thing that gets me about fungal is that there is no delay and no way to see it coming. What would you think if we could actually see the fungal travel from infestor to the target (like an infested terran launch) and add in a very short delay, say .25 sec. That's already been implemented or attempted to be implemented once, and quickly removed. A simple way to suggest what you're saying is: Make fungal a projectile/missile attack. As it is, yeah, no delay. However that's also how it is with storm, so it's not like this feature is unique to fungal. Why should fungal receive this change alone
you cant move out of storms once theyve been cast, you cant move out of fungals.
I have no idea why they changed it, it was much better when you could actually see the projectile
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On March 29 2012 21:55 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 22:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 25 2012 22:44 Vonarma wrote:On March 25 2012 13:20 Jimbo77 wrote:On March 23 2012 02:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
Problem:
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor combo is insanely had to take on.
Solution:
Fungal growth no longer snares air units but only applies damage.
Side Effects:
Apart from being flat out logical, Zergs will have to make anti-air instead of simply casting chain fungal to to kill drop ships. Might help out the muta style or maybe even hydras.
FG should not affect air at all. Then, FG should affect friendly units as well, it's ridiculous that storm and EMP do while FG doesn't. Zerg now literally doesn't need to think, just FG everywhere. ---------------------- The thing that gets me about fungal is that there is no delay and no way to see it coming. What would you think if we could actually see the fungal travel from infestor to the target (like an infested terran launch) and add in a very short delay, say .25 sec. That's already been implemented or attempted to be implemented once, and quickly removed. A simple way to suggest what you're saying is: Make fungal a projectile/missile attack. As it is, yeah, no delay. However that's also how it is with storm, so it's not like this feature is unique to fungal. Why should fungal receive this change alone you cant move out of storms once theyve been cast, you cant move out of fungals. I have no idea why they changed it, it was much better when you could actually see the projectile
Didn't they remove it because it made it too hard to fungal mutas in ZvZ? At least that is what I think the reasons was.
On March 29 2012 21:52 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example. And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion. And it isn't practical for the Zerg to have several tanks worth of defense at every expansion either. What's your point? Terran has the best zone control in the game, hands down. Zerg creep spread doesn't save them from Terran zone control on Antiga, it doesn't even come close.
The race which has the best zone control is pretty much limited to the match-ups. Terrans have good zone control in TvZ but has poor zone control in TvP. So saying that terran has the best zone control in the game is pretty wrong imo. Especially when you don't really see tanks in a standard macro game in TvP. I'd say that the protoss has the most consistent zone control across all match-ups. Mostly due to warp-in which can be quite handily used to protect to secure an area.
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On March 29 2012 21:55 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 22:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 25 2012 22:44 Vonarma wrote:On March 25 2012 13:20 Jimbo77 wrote:On March 23 2012 02:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
Problem:
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor combo is insanely had to take on.
Solution:
Fungal growth no longer snares air units but only applies damage.
Side Effects:
Apart from being flat out logical, Zergs will have to make anti-air instead of simply casting chain fungal to to kill drop ships. Might help out the muta style or maybe even hydras.
FG should not affect air at all. Then, FG should affect friendly units as well, it's ridiculous that storm and EMP do while FG doesn't. Zerg now literally doesn't need to think, just FG everywhere. ---------------------- The thing that gets me about fungal is that there is no delay and no way to see it coming. What would you think if we could actually see the fungal travel from infestor to the target (like an infested terran launch) and add in a very short delay, say .25 sec. That's already been implemented or attempted to be implemented once, and quickly removed. A simple way to suggest what you're saying is: Make fungal a projectile/missile attack. As it is, yeah, no delay. However that's also how it is with storm, so it's not like this feature is unique to fungal. Why should fungal receive this change alone you cant move out of storms once theyve been cast, you cant move out of fungals. I have no idea why they changed it, it was much better when you could actually see the projectile
You can move out of storms once they have been cast.
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On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example. And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion.
Sorry I thought you were the same guy as the guy a couple posts above you. My bad.
Honestly a PF and a single tank is incredibly hard to break. You can always make an extra oc for mules.
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On March 25 2012 13:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
Problem:
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor combo is insanely had to take on.
Solution:
Fungal growth no longer snares air units but only applies damage.
Side Effects:
Apart from being flat out logical, Zergs will have to make anti-air instead of simply casting chain fungal to to kill drop ships. Might help out the muta style or maybe even hydras.
FG should not affect air at all. Then, FG should affect friendly units as well, it's ridiculous that storm and EMP do while FG doesn't. Zerg now literally doesn't need to think, just FG everywhere.
Great way to force muta play in ZvT which is fucking terrible in comparison to infestor based play. You kind of need fungal to deal with medivacs.
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On March 29 2012 22:07 meadbert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:55 7mk wrote:On March 25 2012 22:50 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 25 2012 22:44 Vonarma wrote:On March 25 2012 13:20 Jimbo77 wrote:On March 23 2012 02:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
Problem:
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor combo is insanely had to take on.
Solution:
Fungal growth no longer snares air units but only applies damage.
Side Effects:
Apart from being flat out logical, Zergs will have to make anti-air instead of simply casting chain fungal to to kill drop ships. Might help out the muta style or maybe even hydras.
FG should not affect air at all. Then, FG should affect friendly units as well, it's ridiculous that storm and EMP do while FG doesn't. Zerg now literally doesn't need to think, just FG everywhere. ---------------------- The thing that gets me about fungal is that there is no delay and no way to see it coming. What would you think if we could actually see the fungal travel from infestor to the target (like an infested terran launch) and add in a very short delay, say .25 sec. That's already been implemented or attempted to be implemented once, and quickly removed. A simple way to suggest what you're saying is: Make fungal a projectile/missile attack. As it is, yeah, no delay. However that's also how it is with storm, so it's not like this feature is unique to fungal. Why should fungal receive this change alone you cant move out of storms once theyve been cast, you cant move out of fungals. I have no idea why they changed it, it was much better when you could actually see the projectile You can move out of storms once they have been cast.
I think he means you can , which contrasts fungals where you can't. I really think fungals should have a delay as well, making it more skill based for both players.
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On March 25 2012 13:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
Problem:
Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor combo is insanely had to take on.
Solution:
Fungal growth no longer snares air units but only applies damage.
Side Effects:
Apart from being flat out logical, Zergs will have to make anti-air instead of simply casting chain fungal to to kill drop ships. Might help out the muta style or maybe even hydras.
FG should not affect air at all. Then, FG should affect friendly units as well, it's ridiculous that storm and EMP do while FG doesn't. Zerg now literally doesn't need to think, just FG everywhere.
I dont have anything against friendly fire fungal i think that would be fun, but the rest you said is really dumb.
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lol, u wanna nerf Zerg? cause they own GSL so hard atm? or MLG?
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On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example.And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion.
You clearly don't know how Protoss defense works. You can't protect an expansion with a single pylon even if you have 10 Warpgates. That single pylon would be destroyed before any warp ins occur. Especially when Terran drops with stim.
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I mean they tried a projectile but it was so slow that it made it incredibly easy to dodge. Stim was faster. Easy to blink out of. Pretty much anything could easily dodge it. I imagine that internally they tried fungal with faster projectiles and didn't like the way it worked.
Shrug. We still are seeing zergs fuck up their infester control all the time so to say that infestors don't require skill or attention seems like a boldfaced lie. Infestors also slow down a Zerg army dramatically. It's not like muta where you can basically be everywhere.
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On March 29 2012 22:36 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example.And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion. You clearly don't know how Protoss defense works. You can't protect an expansion with a single pylon even if you have 10 Warpgates. That single pylon would be destroyed before any warp ins occur. Especially when Terran drops with stim.
This is a really flimsy point. What if you have two pylons? The point is, the fact that pylons are essentially a 100 min arbiter in a matchup where the main Protoss army is much more immobile than the Terran's is beyond ridiculous. A deathball should not have more zone control than a mmm army.
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On March 20 2012 07:31 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:29 FuRRyChoBo wrote:On February 03 2012 01:48 Olsson wrote:
Problem:
Zerg doesn't have a response to storm nor EMP.
Solution
Give zerg a new unit in HOTS or give a unit a new ability to drain energy.
Side Effects:
I can't really think of any. It forces micro from both sides and the races will become more equally balanced. While people might argue that zerg shouldn't get this because the races needs to be different and zerg can just mass against this, the races have some fundamental equalities and I believe this should be one of them and zerg dont trade effectively in the late game. Yes they do, it's called micro. In response to the warp gates thing, I've said the mechanic was awful since my first game against Protoss. It just makes zero sense in general. Having warp gates for Protoss is essentially the same as if Terran could directly spawn units out of proxy supply depots. How silly does that sound? it wouldn't sound so silly if those marines you spawn, did cost 4 times as much while doign the same dps.  and prior to the warpgate research builded only 35s each instead of 25s
So a unit with 45 hp should cost 200 minerals.
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Problem: lack of a sieging Tier 3 Air unit for the Terran Army. BC can use Yamato cannon but it's still 150 energy for a unit popping out with at most 75 energy.
Solution: a simple +2 Armour to BC's would allow them to go attack enemy Turrets / Cannons / Spores better, without fear of dying too quickly to those very powerful AAir defense. It still wouldn't matter much against Void Ray / Vikings or Corruptors since they all can still get their advantage (VR gets Bonus Damage / Vikings have range and Corruptors can corrupt).
Side effects: Actually I don't see any significant ones beside the fact that in TvT, a 3/3 Marine pack wouldn't melt your 1/1 Bc's as fast.
Other way to do this could also be by adding a +2 Armor Upgrade for BC's just like the Ultralisk can get.
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Remember that the point of all this is to give Terran a way to siege a position with Air units without taking HUUGGGGGEEEE damages from AAir static defences.
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On March 29 2012 22:47 Ra.Xor.2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 22:36 pOnarreT wrote:On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example.And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion. You clearly don't know how Protoss defense works. You can't protect an expansion with a single pylon even if you have 10 Warpgates. That single pylon would be destroyed before any warp ins occur. Especially when Terran drops with stim. This is a really flimsy point. What if you have two pylons? The point is, the fact that pylons are essentially a 100 min arbiter in a matchup where the main Protoss army is much more immobile than the Terran's is beyond ridiculous. A deathball should not have more zone control than a mmm army.
Well first of all, yes it should. If you're going to have the big slow army you need zone control for it. What about mass dropping requires zone control? MMM doesn't have good zone control. It's not supposed to.
Secondly, why are doing a single, weak drop? I'm sorry but mmm is really strong in tiny ass numbers so what you're telling me is that you always expect to do amazing damage with all of your drops. Whining.
Thirdly, Protoss cannot immediately rejoin those units with his army. Warping in forces him to make units far far away from his deathball. The comparison to arbiter is ridiculous, and completely dependent on the warpgate timer.
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On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example. And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion.
I might be thinking of something else but what about sensor towers?
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On March 29 2012 22:49 cydial wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:31 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2012 07:29 FuRRyChoBo wrote:On February 03 2012 01:48 Olsson wrote:
Problem:
Zerg doesn't have a response to storm nor EMP.
Solution
Give zerg a new unit in HOTS or give a unit a new ability to drain energy.
Side Effects:
I can't really think of any. It forces micro from both sides and the races will become more equally balanced. While people might argue that zerg shouldn't get this because the races needs to be different and zerg can just mass against this, the races have some fundamental equalities and I believe this should be one of them and zerg dont trade effectively in the late game. Yes they do, it's called micro. In response to the warp gates thing, I've said the mechanic was awful since my first game against Protoss. It just makes zero sense in general. Having warp gates for Protoss is essentially the same as if Terran could directly spawn units out of proxy supply depots. How silly does that sound? it wouldn't sound so silly if those marines you spawn, did cost 4 times as much while doign the same dps. and prior to the warpgate research builded only 35s each instead of 25s So a unit with 45 hp should cost 200 minerals.
I don't understand why zerg would have a problem with emp, only infestors have energy and only 2-3 of them can be hit by each emp if they are bundled together and in front of the zerg army.
Storm can hurt, but really fungal is a great answer to either of these problems. 1 fungal can trap upwards of 20 ghosts/ht (clumped).
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It's true that the size of infestors in comparison to HT or Ghosts make them much more difficult to catch with EMP's or Storms since you need more of these ... Anyway that's what Snipes and Feebacks are for too ^^
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On March 29 2012 23:00 TumescentPie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 22:49 cydial wrote:On March 20 2012 07:31 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2012 07:29 FuRRyChoBo wrote:On February 03 2012 01:48 Olsson wrote:
Problem:
Zerg doesn't have a response to storm nor EMP.
Solution
Give zerg a new unit in HOTS or give a unit a new ability to drain energy.
Side Effects:
I can't really think of any. It forces micro from both sides and the races will become more equally balanced. While people might argue that zerg shouldn't get this because the races needs to be different and zerg can just mass against this, the races have some fundamental equalities and I believe this should be one of them and zerg dont trade effectively in the late game. Yes they do, it's called micro. In response to the warp gates thing, I've said the mechanic was awful since my first game against Protoss. It just makes zero sense in general. Having warp gates for Protoss is essentially the same as if Terran could directly spawn units out of proxy supply depots. How silly does that sound? it wouldn't sound so silly if those marines you spawn, did cost 4 times as much while doign the same dps. and prior to the warpgate research builded only 35s each instead of 25s So a unit with 45 hp should cost 200 minerals. I don't understand why zerg would have a problem with emp, only infestors have energy and only 2-3 of them can be hit by each emp if they are bundled together and in front of the zerg army. Storm can hurt, but really fungal is a great answer to either of these problems. 1 fungal can trap upwards of 20 ghosts/ht (clumped). I agree with TumescentPie. EMP shouldn't be a problem. Just spread the infestors and you are normally good to go. Storm does also only hurt the wrong unit composition. Roaches with burrow just won't die because of storms and if you dodge the storms quite good they shouldn't be a problem either.
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Vikings are fine and strong and if you need to stagger their attacks, just do exactly that, it's very simple. Box a smaller amount of them, say a third of them, move them a little in whatever direction seems best and then attack move/stop/hold/patrol so that they fire in slightly different timing to most. If necessary, do it again with another group. Roaches are far more extreme perpetrators of heavy overkill damage, if you move and then attack move as so many pros do, you might notice they (the roaches) often focus on just 1-3 units with a very large group, when the overall damage would be quite a bit greater if they were spread over more units, but you can at least try to combat this by continually boxing and splitting off smaller amounts and staggering their attacks a little. Often there are key targets anyway, so instead of wasting so much damage by making an entire control group clump up and try to focus on one unit, you box a substantial enough but more modest amount of units, enough to definitely kill/destroy it in 2-3 volleys (even if you lose quite a few while they're firing the 2-3 times), move them a little away from the pack and then make them focus on your desired target.
Zerg is full of micro, we're require to not simply a-move into FFs, stimmed marines, vortex baits and colossi easy-mode deathlasers and often have to fight against the unit AI.
e.g. When bunker rushed, keep telling lings/queens to STAY! Don't run to the marine firing at the hatchery! NO! Staaaaaay....hold it...STAY! Gooood chog! Constant attention or else they run in as dimwitted martyrs (or leave them on hold for too long when you need to attack and watch as you miss a timing before the spine falls).
So, you can certainly apply the same damage-staggering micro to vikings, which are miles better than corruptors for every purpose anyway and cheaper too (apart from turning into BLs).
The fungal projectile was witnessed as being disgustingly ineffective in practice. Not only can micromanaged stim marines dodge and kite their supposed direct method of dealing with them, banelings, but they could actively see the projectile coming and dodge it, it was surely more than a 0.5 second delay.
I can testify that many terrans camp on the creep, not generally wise, usually pretty stupid, but the fact is that they do it. Below the highest levels, such terrans will complain about positioning/creep speed bonus/creep 'maphack', but if you look at the APM and EAPM of many such games and watch the camera movements and actions of the players in the replay, the zerg camera will often be moving about more frequently, going about all of the regular tasks, spreading creep included, while so many terrans don't seem to think of clearing creep as an active task to keep working on. If they thought about how to clear it and got on with it, they could save a lot of pushes from going awry.
On the topic of bunkers, you won't normally plant them just everywhere of course although you potentially could wall off a lot of areas sort of cheaply and be able to get plenty of money back if something gave you reason to clear it of defences, such as the base it was protecting being doom dropped/cleaned up by mass mutalisks etc), but terran is so damned supply efficient on the whole, especially with how cost efficient they mostly are and you can clear SCVs to use MULEs, freeing up supply for a 150+ supply army, so using four marines in bunkers here and there shouldn't be such an issue, it's more that you might feel like a small amount of defensive structures here and there may not help that much, but NEWSFLASH! Spine Crawlers can't be built just anywhere willy-nilly as soon as we wish and are not effective against a reasonable squadron of troupes, so for both races, a somewhat small investment can only deal with a somewhat small force, but in both cases, they can help to hold off forces for some of the time before your army gets there and the actual structures use 0 supply. Main drawback for bunkers - you need up to 4 supply of units to fill it. For Spine Crawlers, they cut your income every time you turn a drone into one. 150 minerals + income that doesn't matter at first, but once you've made 20+ spines in a long macro game, it's quite a bit that you could have lost.
Just on zone control, please terrans, don't forget nukes, you only need one to land on something valuable while the opponent is tending to something else or didn't get the warning sound (and has the side tokens turned off) for it to pay in dividends and they can be used as perfect zone control while you attack/drop units elsewhere (possibly nearby though).
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On March 29 2012 22:59 Roachu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 21:39 monkybone wrote:On March 29 2012 21:16 DoubleReed wrote:On March 29 2012 20:00 monkybone wrote:
Zone control for Terran is extremely expensive (tanks and planetaries), much more so that for Zerg and Protoss, which have cheaper alternatives. Including: Creep (free), spines (cheap), pylons for warp in (free in the sense that you need them anyway), cannons.
It's not practical to put down planetaries before very very late game. The alternative for Terran is bunkers, but since they need to be filled with units, they are in effect a costly alternative (at least 300 resources, 4 supply). Are you for real? Pylons are zone control? Creep is like tanks? Seriously, what game are you playing? Tanks are fantastic in this game. Let's see a replay of your tanks being bad. Zerg zone control is broodlords, infestors and burrow. Protoss is storm, collosus, sentries, and mothership. These are not cheap units. Plus you're getting the Shredder. We're clearly using different notions of zone control. I'm not talking about AoE damage like you are implying here, and I doubt anyone else is either. Zone control is local map control. And creep is an excellent way to control space on the map, as it gives room for reaction. No terran will walk straight across areas with creep. Pylons are used defensively as well by warp in, to intercept drops, runbys and so on. You're basically having control over the area, and that's all there is to it. A single pylon can an entire expansion from ling runbys for example. And I didn't imply that tanks are bad, where did you get that notion? I'm saying that they are an expensive alternative. It isn't e.g. practical to have several tanks at each expansion. I might be thinking of something else but what about sensor towers?
They are good, but they are expensive to make especially in early-mid game. Whereas creep tumor is basically free and makes zerg units on it faster. Sensor tower doesn't really do anything else expect give detection, but it is still quite huge so it really isn't a problem. Still you can only really afford to make them at late game where terran has more than 3 bases and all the production facilities needed to pump out units to replace dead units faster.
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EPT
