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The way I interpreted DinoMight was that in the event of scouting 15/15 gas 1 base play, an intermediate level player (think plat to low master) might put down a few turrets as a response regardless of actually scouting a proxy or being able to scout the main (as at this point there is usually a stalker and MsC in main). His post was a continuation/elaboration/confirmation of the post I wrote I assume.
I'm sorry if I came across as harsh, but just the use of protoss as an example seemed to invite a lot of terran grief in regards to oracles, which I find unfounded, especially given the current metagame situation. Many posts seemed 'whiny' and didn't actually contribute to the discussion in which I attempted to highlight some of the strengths of the 2rax as a build.
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Yeah I also reacted to some whine rather than the actual super early gas 5:05 oracle being discussed.
Double gas THAT early has to be either Oracle or DT. You just don't have the minerals to go Stalkers or Proxy robo + gateway units / anything else (because you need units). Turret counters both Oracle and DT.
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A delayed gas would also prove it's not the super fast oracle or dt, allowing you to counter with more conventional means.
Sadly, as a lowbie, I mostly panic and make "just in case" spores/turrets/bunkers/spines at the exact moment of non-standard play.
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On September 18 2014 05:24 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 05:06 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 04:33 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game. hide your stuff on the map Do people not count workers anymore? Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech. You don't have to find anything out in the black zone. Is it going to be a proxy with or without worker cutting on 1 or 2 bases and could it then be a proxy stargate, twilight, dark shrine or a robo? If you guess wrong you're dead. Sigh. You get to his base and he's on 2 gas not making a MsC and you see no tech assume proxy something. Turret counters Oracles and DTs. You're left with Blink and Robo? Well, if he's going BLINK then he's going to need Stalkers. If you see Stalkers around and all these other things then there you go. If you don't see Stalkers then look around your base for a Robo. Proxy Robo only works if its close by so you don't need to look too far. If he's on 1 base you make a bunch of bunkers and hold anyway. Counter with a widow mine drop in his base and GG. This is how almost all cheese gets shut down that I've seen. It's easy to whine about cheese... but it's ALMOST as easy to think about what each cheese implies and how to prepare for it. I almost never lose to cheese when I TvP on ladder because I know the Protoss timings for things and what to scout for. For example... if you open 2 gas you barely have enough gas to make a Stalker/MsC/Warpgate ASAP. There's no extra gas for a Stargate or a Twilight.
"sigh"
The thing is builds by protoss players on ladder aren't as tight as they should be and are more often than not hard to read especially when they hide essential information on the map. When you don't get killed it doesn't matter since you can't counter attack thanks to the nexus cannon. So you go into the late game with a disadvantage which harder for you when you pick the terran icon at the start of the game. The late game wouldn't be a problem if the early game wasn't so utterly broken.
~ They can end the game and if it doesn't work out they can just click on their nexus which gives them a good chance of getting in the lategame. Is this fair? Is that actually balanced?
Imo this is bs and if it doesn't get fixed in the next expansion I won't spend 40 euro's on it lol.
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On September 18 2014 06:26 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 05:24 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 05:06 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 04:33 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game. hide your stuff on the map Do people not count workers anymore? Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech. You don't have to find anything out in the black zone. Is it going to be a proxy with or without worker cutting on 1 or 2 bases and could it then be a proxy stargate, twilight, dark shrine or a robo? If you guess wrong you're dead. Sigh. You get to his base and he's on 2 gas not making a MsC and you see no tech assume proxy something. Turret counters Oracles and DTs. You're left with Blink and Robo? Well, if he's going BLINK then he's going to need Stalkers. If you see Stalkers around and all these other things then there you go. If you don't see Stalkers then look around your base for a Robo. Proxy Robo only works if its close by so you don't need to look too far. If he's on 1 base you make a bunch of bunkers and hold anyway. Counter with a widow mine drop in his base and GG. This is how almost all cheese gets shut down that I've seen. It's easy to whine about cheese... but it's ALMOST as easy to think about what each cheese implies and how to prepare for it. I almost never lose to cheese when I TvP on ladder because I know the Protoss timings for things and what to scout for. For example... if you open 2 gas you barely have enough gas to make a Stalker/MsC/Warpgate ASAP. There's no extra gas for a Stargate or a Twilight. "sigh" The thing is builds by protoss players on ladder aren't as tight as they should be and are more often than not hard to read especially when they hide essential information on the map. When you don't get killed it doesn't matter since you can't counter attack thanks to the nexus cannon. So you go into the late game with a disadvantage which harder for you when you pick the terran icon at the start of the game. The late game wouldn't be a problem if the early game wasn't so utterly broken. ~ They can end the game and if it doesn't work out they can just click on their nexus which gives them a good chance of getting in the lategame. Is this fair? Is that actually balanced? Imo this is bs and if it doesn't get fixed in the next expansion I won't spend 40 euro's on it lol.
I they're build are inefficient, then can't you just play better and kill them?
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Northern Ireland27280 Posts
Play better meaning what exactly? Sometimes you just make bad reads because most players figure out the game with at least some reference to the standard/pro level meta, and sheer weird, inefficient builds can really prosper outside of a huge mechanical advantage.
It's not really a big deal, in fact it's quite fun to encounter guys who clearly do their own weird builds on ladder but it can lead to some silly losses 
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Efficient builds will always beat inefficient builds because that's why they're the efficient builds. Pokes exist because it kills most non-standard play.
If you're losing when they don't do builds right it's a mechanics issue and not a balance issue, hence irrelevant to this thread.
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You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious.
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On September 18 2014 06:26 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 05:24 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 05:06 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 04:33 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game. hide your stuff on the map Do people not count workers anymore? Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech. You don't have to find anything out in the black zone. Is it going to be a proxy with or without worker cutting on 1 or 2 bases and could it then be a proxy stargate, twilight, dark shrine or a robo? If you guess wrong you're dead. Sigh. You get to his base and he's on 2 gas not making a MsC and you see no tech assume proxy something. Turret counters Oracles and DTs. You're left with Blink and Robo? Well, if he's going BLINK then he's going to need Stalkers. If you see Stalkers around and all these other things then there you go. If you don't see Stalkers then look around your base for a Robo. Proxy Robo only works if its close by so you don't need to look too far. If he's on 1 base you make a bunch of bunkers and hold anyway. Counter with a widow mine drop in his base and GG. This is how almost all cheese gets shut down that I've seen. It's easy to whine about cheese... but it's ALMOST as easy to think about what each cheese implies and how to prepare for it. I almost never lose to cheese when I TvP on ladder because I know the Protoss timings for things and what to scout for. For example... if you open 2 gas you barely have enough gas to make a Stalker/MsC/Warpgate ASAP. There's no extra gas for a Stargate or a Twilight. "sigh" The thing is builds by protoss players on ladder aren't as tight as they should be and are more often than not hard to read especially when they hide essential information on the map. When you don't get killed it doesn't matter since you can't counter attack thanks to the nexus cannon. So you go into the late game with a disadvantage which harder for you when you pick the terran icon at the start of the game. The late game wouldn't be a problem if the early game wasn't so utterly broken. ~ They can end the game and if it doesn't work out they can just click on their nexus which gives them a good chance of getting in the lategame. Is this fair? Is that actually balanced? Imo this is bs and if it doesn't get fixed in the next expansion I won't spend 40 euro's on it lol.
On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle.
Surviving =/= Winning.
Just because a Protoss can hold counter aggression with Photon Overcharge doesn't mean he isn't behind. Instead of attacking into the Protoss, expand and deny him his 3rd (where he obviously won't have PO yet since it's not built).
You'll win eventually.
Every Protoss cheese / proxy tech that doesn't do damage puts the Protoss behind. You just can't capitalize IMMEDIATELY on it. Just look at TvT.. economic advantage doesn't mean instant win. But it does mean that eventually you will run him over.
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On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious.
If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM.
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On September 18 2014 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious. If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM.
I don't know, watching Destiny's stream you get a feeling that all low GM protoss players on the NA server have their own ridiculous way of playing the game that would never survive pro play.
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On September 19 2014 01:44 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious. If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM. I don't know, watching Destiny's stream you get a feeling that all low GM protoss players on the NA server have their own ridiculous way of playing the game that would never survive pro play.
Low GM on NA server is nowhere near pro level. I know that sounds like an elitist thing to say, but it's true. How many pros that are relevant are there? There are ~800 GMs in the world right? The math is simple.
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On September 19 2014 03:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 01:44 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2014 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious. If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM. I don't know, watching Destiny's stream you get a feeling that all low GM protoss players on the NA server have their own ridiculous way of playing the game that would never survive pro play. Low GM on NA server is nowhere near pro level. I know that sounds like an elitist thing to say, but it's true. How many pros that are relevant are there? There are ~800 GMs in the world right? The math is simple.
Relative scale right? Things people in low silver do will never work in gold. Low gold will never work in platinum and so on and so forth.
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On September 19 2014 03:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 01:44 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2014 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious. If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM. I don't know, watching Destiny's stream you get a feeling that all low GM protoss players on the NA server have their own ridiculous way of playing the game that would never survive pro play. Low GM on NA server is nowhere near pro level. I know that sounds like an elitist thing to say, but it's true. How many pros that are relevant are there? There are ~800 GMs in the world right? The math is simple.
We are talking about cheeses that hit under 6 minutes, I am sure every low GM can execute a proxy oracle the same way as Zest would. The difference in skill only becomes apparent a bit later in the game.
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On September 19 2014 04:31 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 03:20 DinoMight wrote:On September 19 2014 01:44 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2014 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious. If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM. I don't know, watching Destiny's stream you get a feeling that all low GM protoss players on the NA server have their own ridiculous way of playing the game that would never survive pro play. Low GM on NA server is nowhere near pro level. I know that sounds like an elitist thing to say, but it's true. How many pros that are relevant are there? There are ~800 GMs in the world right? The math is simple. We are talking about cheeses that hit under 6 minutes, I am sure every low GM can execute a proxy oracle the same way as Zest would. The difference in skill only becomes apparent a bit later in the game.
While it's true that anyone can EXECUTE a cheese (hell, I can hit pro timings doing certain builds) DEFENDING cheese is totally different. I've seen top players make reads based off of the tiniest detail like the angle the Mothership core was floating from or the placement of a building etc. and flawlessly defend something that anyone (low GM included would have died to).
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On September 19 2014 04:31 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 03:20 DinoMight wrote:On September 19 2014 01:44 Grumbels wrote:On September 18 2014 07:28 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 07:06 PanzerElite wrote:
You can't actually kill them because of amazing 1 click defensing... so you're saying gm's are irrelevant? clearly, there's no point in actually stating the obvious. If they can't do build orders, I doubt they're in GM. I don't know, watching Destiny's stream you get a feeling that all low GM protoss players on the NA server have their own ridiculous way of playing the game that would never survive pro play. Low GM on NA server is nowhere near pro level. I know that sounds like an elitist thing to say, but it's true. How many pros that are relevant are there? There are ~800 GMs in the world right? The math is simple. We are talking about cheeses that hit under 6 minutes, I am sure every low GM can execute a proxy oracle the same way as Zest would. The difference in skill only becomes apparent a bit later in the game.
Not only later in the game. Players react differently in weird situations and those situations often happen if a player cheeses. Just a cannonrush as example. An NA Zerg will be way more thrown of his timings than a korean zerg will be, and also the decision making how to defend the cannon rush will in average be better from the korean player.
They koreans are just way more precise about timings and the overall game play. Way more mechanically and less creative.
If something happens they have a plan, the most efficent way to deal with the situation ( not everytime but just more often than NA players). The foreigners tend to be more creative in those situations and try to throw of their opponent with something weird.
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Surviving =/= Winning.
Just because a Protoss can hold counter aggression with Photon Overcharge doesn't mean he isn't behind. Instead of attacking into the Protoss, expand and deny him his 3rd (where he obviously won't have PO yet since it's not built).
You'll win eventually.
That is fairly arguable if we are talking about lower levels of play. It is very widely accepted that the protoss endgame army is far stronger and easier to control.
Maxing on two bases and pushing once is a valid strategy for Protoss up to a very high level of play. Not so for the other races.
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On September 20 2014 03:44 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +Surviving =/= Winning.
Just because a Protoss can hold counter aggression with Photon Overcharge doesn't mean he isn't behind. Instead of attacking into the Protoss, expand and deny him his 3rd (where he obviously won't have PO yet since it's not built).
You'll win eventually. That is fairly arguable if we are talking about lower levels of play. It is very widely accepted that the protoss endgame army is far stronger and easier to control. Maxing on two bases and pushing once is a valid strategy for Protoss up to a very high level of play. Not so for the other races.
Terran doesn't even have to max for 2base to be lethal, and this is true up until GSL levels of play.
I think you're cherry picking your arguments here.
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On September 20 2014 05:02 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 03:44 r691175002 wrote:Surviving =/= Winning.
Just because a Protoss can hold counter aggression with Photon Overcharge doesn't mean he isn't behind. Instead of attacking into the Protoss, expand and deny him his 3rd (where he obviously won't have PO yet since it's not built).
You'll win eventually. That is fairly arguable if we are talking about lower levels of play. It is very widely accepted that the protoss endgame army is far stronger and easier to control. Maxing on two bases and pushing once is a valid strategy for Protoss up to a very high level of play. Not so for the other races. Terran doesn't even have to max for 2base to be lethal, and this is true up until GSL levels of play. I think you're cherry picking your arguments here.
Huh? Can't remember the last time I didnt see a top terran take a 3rd in tvp, even when they do an scv pull....
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as a Z main and T offrace player i actually love to see Z underperform. this opens up possible buffs to stuff like nydus, burrow movement or overlord drop which i would love to see be more viable. if the trend continues and Z keeps underperforming i really hope blizz buffs stuff like that and doesnt buff ling bane muta....
also i win more when playing T on my Z main account :D
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EPT
