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On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle.
The problem is that most people feel they lose for the same reason GSL players lose.
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On September 17 2014 05:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. The problem is that most people feel they lose for the same reason GSL players lose.
AMEN.
There is so much meta that goes on between these players too.. they play each other so often in Pro League and on the ladder. Very different than when you queue up against a rando you've never played before.
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On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle.
Let's see here. Death or spending 500~ minerals.
Tough choice for sure.
However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle
This has been discussed tons already. Iam surprised you havent understood it actually.
Pro players, especially the good ones dont like luckbased play. They like consistency. There is a reason they cut edge's.
Spending money on an ebay+2turrets sets the terran behind if there is no oracle. I am not sure exactly in what ways the terran are behind but iam guessing its in economy and maybe in tech etc~
Even if an oracle do come, terran might be behind in economy still. I dont know every detail here. But if its true, they are still behind..Wow.
Toss can go economy+tech very safe. Terran cant. Therefore, doing greed play as terran has a chance to lose but they do it because they feel "forced" to do it.
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On September 17 2014 05:53 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Let's see here. Death or spending 500~ minerals. Tough choice for sure. Show nested quote +However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle This has been discussed tons already. Iam surprised you havent understood it actually. Pro players, especially the good ones dont like luckbased play. They like consistency. There is a reason they cut edge's. Spending money on an ebay+2turrets sets the terran behind if there is no oracle. I am not sure exactly in what ways the terran are behind but iam guessing its in economy and maybe in tech etc~ Even if an oracle do come, terran might be behind in economy still. I dont know every detail here. But if its true, they are still behind..Wow. Toss can go economy+tech very safe. Terran cant. Therefore, doing greed play as terran has a chance to lose but they do it because they feel "forced" to do it.
All races do it, not just T.
We often see Nexus first into in base Gateway PvZ - extremely unsafe against a lot of "early" pool buids. Likewise Zergs go hatch first without scouting pretty regularly.
It's a calculated risk. They think the economic benefit is worth it vs. the small chance they get cheesed. And they are usually trying to meta the way they think their opponent will play.
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I have a question for you guys. Once a Protoss gets a large assortment of phoenix, lets say 30 and covers every base he has with cannons, with the only ground army he has is Dark Templar; how do you win as Zerg? You can't make a ground army because he kills the overseer and you can't see the dts. You can't make pure air because corruptors can't attack ground and mutas can't even run from phoenix and phoenix can even kite corruptors. So what exactly do you do?
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spore is your answer, same in BW, just that the ability to pick up of phoenix is pretty stupid
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On September 17 2014 11:40 Konranjyoutai wrote:
I have a question for you guys. Once a Protoss gets a large assortment of phoenix, lets say 30 and covers every base he has with cannons, with the only ground army he has is Dark Templar; how do you win as Zerg? You can't make a ground army because he kills the overseer and you can't see the dts. You can't make pure air because corruptors can't attack ground and mutas can't even run from phoenix and phoenix can even kite corruptors. So what exactly do you do?
infestors, fungal allows you to kill all 30 phoenix at once and also reveals cloaked units.
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Northern Ireland27280 Posts
I thought Mondragon taught us that the counter to Phoenixes is a combination of hatcheries and drones?
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On September 17 2014 11:40 Konranjyoutai wrote:
I have a question for you guys. Once a Protoss gets a large assortment of phoenix, lets say 30 and covers every base he has with cannons, with the only ground army he has is Dark Templar; how do you win as Zerg? You can't make a ground army because he kills the overseer and you can't see the dts. You can't make pure air because corruptors can't attack ground and mutas can't even run from phoenix and phoenix can even kite corruptors. So what exactly do you do?
Fungals, spore and roach/hydra shut that down so hard.
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On September 17 2014 11:40 Konranjyoutai wrote:
I have a question for you guys. Once a Protoss gets a large assortment of phoenix, lets say 30 and covers every base he has with cannons, with the only ground army he has is Dark Templar; how do you win as Zerg? You can't make a ground army because he kills the overseer and you can't see the dts. You can't make pure air because corruptors can't attack ground and mutas can't even run from phoenix and phoenix can even kite corruptors. So what exactly do you do?
You should put this in the Zerg help me thread really, not here.
But as others have said spore Colonies + roach/Hydra shuts this down ezpz. Unless Phoenixes magically learn Disruption Web!
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The proxy oracle is probably the most enraging of all the ''Protoss Bullshit'' strategies. The unit itself is very poorly designed in my opinion, i feel it only exists to enable some cheeses and has no relevancy past that. The exception is in PvP where the Oracle actually creates interesting scenarios and allows stargate opening against other builds.
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On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle.
Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway).
And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either.
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On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either.
You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins.
Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game.
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On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game.
hide your stuff on the map
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On September 18 2014 04:33 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game. hide your stuff on the map
Do people not count workers anymore?
Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech.
You don't have to find anything out in the black zone.
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On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game.
I didn't say it was impossible or even hard to scout, I'm saying blindly going turrets is a horrible idea because you'll still lose to the very thing it's meant to prevent.
edit: removed words unnecessary to prove my point since they will be targetted instead of my actual point.
On September 18 2014 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech.
You don't have to find anything out in the black zone.
Actually, the minerals / gas is very very similar for Stargate + Oracle (300/300) / Stargate + Void Ray (400/300) / Twilight + Blink (300/250) / Twilight + Dark Shrine (300/250), all require only 1 pylon to proxy and all typically get an inbase robo following the proxy (assuming 2 base variant). The only thing you can tell by looking at your opponent's base is that he is proxy'ing something, and each requires a different response.
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On September 18 2014 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 04:33 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game. hide your stuff on the map Do people not count workers anymore? Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech. You don't have to find anything out in the black zone.
Is it going to be a proxy with or without worker cutting on 1 or 2 bases and could it then be a proxy stargate, twilight, dark shrine or a robo?
If you guess wrong you're dead.
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@Pursuit_
I don't understand. The case of blind turrets against a 5:05 oracle was based on a misunderstanding (resolved) and therefore totally irrelevant. A 5:05 oracle doesn't come instead of a proxy robo\TC\DT, it comes from a distinct early gas build (10gate and 13/14 gas). The case about blind turrets was in the case of scouting standard 15/15 gases, which can mean any of the proxy oracle/robo/TC/DT. But regardless the oracle will be at least a minute later (there will be time to scout it), and maybe even 1,5-2 min if the protoss gets a stalker or mothership core to deflect the reaper.
Could you please read the thread before replying with whines that derail the thread?
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On September 18 2014 05:06 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 04:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 18 2014 04:33 PanzerElite wrote:On September 18 2014 04:26 DinoMight wrote:On September 18 2014 03:23 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 17 2014 05:12 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus. Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter. However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle. Sorry, but this is incorrect, blindly making a eng bay + turret in time to stop a 5:05 oracle while still getting an expansion will make you auto-lose to just about any other 1 base all-in from Protoss because you have to get the eng bay before your 2nd rax for it to be in time. As a protoss player if your opponent reacts this way, 2 turrets + eng bay = 325m + delayed production = you can be as tech greedy as you want on 2 base or go for a fast third. Your opponent wont be able to punish it (edit: with a pre-medivac timing anyway). And this isn't true at just the top GSL level either. You have a reaper. Use it to scout. You shouldn't lose to 1 base allins. Again, if going 5:05 Oracle had no drawbacks and forced a game ending response from Terran, Protoss would do it every game. hide your stuff on the map Do people not count workers anymore? Get to their base, if they have the same amount of workers or more, then they aren't rushing and will be usin standard timings. If they have less workers than you, they cut corners and are doing a proxy. You can tell the proxy by counting the refineries, supply, and in base tech. You don't have to find anything out in the black zone. Is it going to be a proxy with or without worker cutting on 1 or 2 bases and could it then be a proxy stargate, twilight, dark shrine or a robo? If you guess wrong you're dead.
Sigh.
You get to his base and he's on 2 gas not making a MsC and you see no tech assume proxy something. Turret counters Oracles and DTs. You're left with Blink and Robo? Well, if he's going BLINK then he's going to need Stalkers. If you see Stalkers around and all these other things then there you go. If you don't see Stalkers then look around your base for a Robo. Proxy Robo only works if its close by so you don't need to look too far.
If he's on 1 base you make a bunch of bunkers and hold anyway. Counter with a widow mine drop in his base and GG.
This is how almost all cheese gets shut down that I've seen. It's easy to whine about cheese... but it's ALMOST as easy to think about what each cheese implies and how to prepare for it.
I almost never lose to cheese when I TvP on ladder because I know the Protoss timings for things and what to scout for.
For example... if you open 2 gas you barely have enough gas to make a Stalker/MsC/Warpgate ASAP. There's no extra gas for a Stargate or a Twilight.
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On September 18 2014 05:24 TokO wrote:
@Pursuit_
I don't understand. The case of blind turrets against a 5:05 oracle was based on a misunderstanding (resolved) and therefore totally irrelevant. A 5:05 oracle doesn't come instead of a proxy robo\TC\DT, it comes from a distinct early gas build (10gate and 13/14 gas). The case about blind turrets was in the case of scouting standard 15/15 gases, which can mean any of the proxy oracle/robo/TC/DT. But regardless the oracle will be at least a minute later (there will be time to scout it), and maybe even 1,5-2 min if the protoss gets a stalker or mothership core to deflect the reaper.
Could you please read the thread before replying with whines that derail the thread?
edit: I'll just admit I'm wrong on this one.
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EPT
