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On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain.
Try playing against a 5:05 Proxy Oracle, which can fail miserably without putting Protoss behind at all.
Terran needs to have 6 Marines, a Widow Mine or a Turret in their mineral to defend against this.
Scouting it is difficult because all you scout at the Protoss base is double gas and a missing pylon.
Which means it could also be Blink or Dark Templar, both of which require different responses.
If the Oracle flies straight into a Widow Mine, the game is still pretty much even, with the MSC defending the natural with PO against any potential counter pressure.
If it succeeds, the SCVs get slaughtered and Protoss pretty much wins the game then and there.
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Nerf to repair costs and salvage would completely break anything else that happens in the game later when terran needs to defend with bunkers (eg. roach bust, blink allin, immortal allin). Movement speed of buildings is already slow as hell. Most terrans keep making marines from the proxy location and dare to fly back to base only once their factory is complete and pumping out hellions. As some previous posts stated already. Its been here since 2010, it was a lot stronger at that time and zergs did just fine. Its not like its happening every game like blink allins in PvT at the start of this year.
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On September 16 2014 23:06 Meavis wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain. eh I'd say learning how to deflect a 2rax is about the same as learning how to deal with 6pool/proxy hatch or 2gate/cannonrush
I would totally agree with that. My point was that once you hold it, Terran has more opportunities to retain the resources he invested in the 2rax. I think the cannon rush is similar in efficiency in a PvP, but the other builds are quite different. You can't just trade in zerglings for drones after a 6pool, or bring my structures back after a failed proxy as a Protoss.
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Just want to hop in and tell those guys off that either think that:
a) "You can just scout for it." It is impossible to scout 2rax on 3-4player maps unless you send at least two drones on 10supply (at which point you just can't hold it, unless you kill the SCVs with those drones). You can gamble on scouting it, which then means you are even worse off if you don't find it.
The reason scouting is a good strategy against it is that you have a reasonable chance to find it, but it's completely luckbased. Better than 50-50, but not in your hands. If a Terran properly gambles your overlord/drone movement and lucks out on the spawn positions - which is a 50-50 random chance on 3p maps, 33-66 on 4p maps - there is just nothing you can do to scout it.
b) "2rax can be easily defended by going 14-15pool." This is just not true. 2rax can still be lethal or end up ahead, and you are even more relying on scouting it as well or you won't know that you have to make zerglings and you won't have the vision (and creep) from the hatchery to see a bunker going up. You lose even more money trying to find a bunker with drones than in a hatch first scenario, which means you are double behind against a macro opening (triple if it is a CC first). And the Terran can much more confidently transition into a macro game from it. It's far from a hardcounter, though it is good if the Terran still is stubborn enough to force the issue when you are making mass zerglings.
Disclaimer (so that I do not have to respond to strawmen arguments against this): I don't say it is broken or anything like that. What I do believe is that - given the reasoning in a) that it is not in your hands to counter it with a scout and a scout weakens you in the actual defense - many (professional) zerg players just do not scout early to begin with, since it could actually just make the situation worse and is a negative factor for all other scenarios. They rather just try to defend it reactively if it comes.
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On September 16 2014 23:42 Big J wrote:
Just want to hop in and tell those guys off that either think that:
a) "You can just scout for it." It is impossible to scout 2rax on 3-4player maps unless you send at least two drones on 10supply (at which point you just can't hold it, unless you kill the SCVs with those drones). You can gamble on scouting it, which then means you are even worse off if you don't find it.
The reason scouting is a good strategy against it is that you have a reasonable chance to find it, but it's completely luckbased. Better than 50-50, but not in your hands. If a Terran properly gambles your overlord/drone movement and lucks out on the spawn positions - which is a 50-50 random chance on 3p maps, 33-66 on 4p maps - there is just nothing you can do to scout it.
b) "2rax can be easily defended by going 14-15pool." This is just not true. 2rax can still be lethal or end up ahead, and you are even more relying on scouting it as well or you won't know that you have to make zerglings and you won't have the vision (and creep) from the hatchery to see a bunker going up. You lose even more money trying to find a bunker with drones than in a hatch first scenario, which means you are double behind against a macro opening (triple if it is a CC first). And the Terran can much more confidently transition into a macro game from it. It's far from a hardcounter, though it is good if the Terran still is stubborn enough to force the issue when you are making mass zerglings.
Disclaimer (so that I do not have to respond to strawmen arguments against this): I don't say it is broken or anything like that. What I do believe is that - given the reasoning in a) that it is not in your hands to counter it with a scout and a scout weakens you in the actual defense - many (professional) zerg players just do not scout early to begin with, since it could actually just make the situation worse and is a negative factor for all other scenarios. They rather just try to defend it reactively if it comes.
to be honest with you i think 2rax is easier to scout on 3p/4p maps. you just drone scout the middle, if nothing is there you rally the scout back to the natural and build your hatch by 2:10ish which is fine. ive had games on 2p maps where i pathed my overlords especially to find proxies AND drone scouted but the 2rax still came because terran deked his SCVs, i missed the minimap for a split second because i was watching my drone scout, and i lost. even if you dont miss the scvs on the minimap terran can still just build it barely outside the vision of your scouting drone, you are just never guaranteed to find it on a two spawn map because terran can get a lot more creative
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Has anyone discussed for swarm hosts possibly making it so you can attack the eggs when they pop up? Like give them maybe 25-40hp? It feels like if there is a massive swarm host bunch even if you get ontop of it you can quickly lose your army to the locust respawn.
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@brickrd; it's true that most people proxy in the middle on 3p maps. But they do so because they don't think about it. I have met more than one player that actually had his 2rax refined to not be in the middle.
Example: Catallena
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q0ctM5U.png)
2rax can happen anywhere on these lines, given your information. (which is already disregarding that your opponent could be positioning gambling to begin with)
With both overlords and a drone scout through the middle, you can probably cover two thirds of it.
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On September 16 2014 23:11 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain. Try playing against a 5:05 Proxy Oracle, which can fail miserably without putting Protoss behind at all. Terran needs to have 6 Marines, a Widow Mine or a Turret in their mineral to defend against this. Scouting it is difficult because all you scout at the Protoss base is double gas and a missing pylon. Which means it could also be Blink or Dark Templar, both of which require different responses. If the Oracle flies straight into a Widow Mine, the game is still pretty much even, with the MSC defending the natural with PO against any potential counter pressure. If it succeeds, the SCVs get slaughtered and Protoss pretty much wins the game then and there.
Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades.
The missile turret that guards against this Oracle also defends against DTs. And Blink is much easier to scout (and easier to defend on these maps than it has ever been).
If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind.
EDIT - Think of how ridiculous that argument is:
If Protoss can waste 300/300 and delay econ/tech/upgrades and still come out even with the Terran then why doesn't every single Protoss go for proxy 5:05 Oracle EVERY SINGLE GAME?
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On September 17 2014 00:31 DinoMight wrote:
Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades.
If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind.
I don't think you need 6-7 kills to get even as Protoss.
Your 300/300 investment does not only buy you the opportunity to kill workers. The oracle guarantees complete map control/scout denial, and has forced the Terran into an equally uneconomic opening.
Sure, the Protoss is behind where they could have been compared to a nexus first, but the Terran is also behind where they could have been if they skipped the turret and marines.
Flying the oracle into a widow mine will put you behind, but as long as it stays around you can get an enormous amount of guaranteed damage. It is literally impossible to prevent the oracle from getting at least a few worker snipes considering its speed.
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On September 16 2014 17:56 Chillidawg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 17:46 TheDwf wrote:On September 16 2014 17:30 Chillidawg wrote:
This discussion went completely off track. As I said, 2 rax openers are becoming more and more standard, since they are so strong, they come in different forms and are hard to scout. Looking at pros I see that even if they scout the opener, it can still do a lot of damage, and I feel like it's the agressive opener (avoiding the term "cheese" for obvious reasons) that have the most impact and the highest success rate, even if scouted directly with a overlord. Statistical evidence for that? No statistical evidence for it, as I said, just a feeling. I would love to see some statistics in pro games myself aswell.
Based on games I saw (only Korean Terrans):
22/281 in August = proxy 2 rax used 7,82% of the time in TvZ
So far in September: 7/63 = 11,1% of the time.
Sample size in September is still too low to make a call, but so far I don't see anything convincing regarding a sudden increase in 2 rax lately.
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On September 16 2014 23:11 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 22:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 21:38 Wombat_NI wrote:I haven't seen a failed 2 rax in the 2/3 months I have been following tournaments again. Granted a lot of it was in PL, I'm not sure why people continually failed to hold even with scouts/good reads. Perhaps the eSF Zergs had a lot more experience having played from the beginning of WoL as opposed to these Kespa upstarts?  Nestea won a GSL when raxes built faster, required no depot, and maps were smaller so Terran would just pull scvs easier. And that was 2010 Protoss 4 gate pre warp gate and high ground warp nerf was also defendable, doesn't make it any less imbalanced. There was a huge argument and debate about hatch first or pool first is better against 2 rax, at the end no one came with a solid conclusion. hatch first is not greedy because hatch first put you even against almost any kind of opening and pool first is pretty horrible against reaper opening and at best even against every other opening
4gate was only really problematic in pvp
But the argument about hatch vs pool first is that hatch first gives creep (for spine) and more larva, pool first provides lings to hit marines before getting to bunker.
Hatch first is better if the proxy is close, pool is better if the proxy is far. Close proxy the worry is getting a spine up while far proxy the worry is disrupting the reinforcement line.
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On September 17 2014 00:48 r691175002 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2014 00:31 DinoMight wrote:
Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades.
If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind.
I don't think you need 6-7 kills to get even as Protoss. Your 300/300 investment does not only buy you the opportunity to kill workers. The oracle guarantees complete map control/scout denial, and has forced the Terran into an equally uneconomic opening. Sure, the Protoss is behind where they could have been compared to a nexus first, but the Terran is also behind where they could have been if they skipped the turret and marines. Flying the oracle into a widow mine will put you behind, but as long as it stays around you can get an enormous amount of guaranteed damage. It is literally impossible to prevent the oracle from getting at least a few worker snipes considering its speed.
This is definitely not as severe an argument that Thezzy was making. I still think that it is an exaggeration compared to the general consensus. If I'm not mistaken, a 5:05 oracle has to come from a 10gate, 13/14 gases. It is the only build that opens that way, which means that if you scout it with a reaper, you should know what it is. Not to mention, if someone does that kind of build, the reaper has free reign on the protosses probe line, and you probably have time to start a bunker on the far side of your mineral line, if you start it at once. Thezzy seemed to combine the threat of a standard 15/15 gas play with that of a super fast proxy oracle. When a reaper scout a missing pylon, on the standard double gas play, he often finds the proxy and is able to prepare for the oracle. In this case, he should have enough marines to hold it off. In this case, he also doesn't have to poke or scout, as the proxy stargate dictates what a protoss can do, both TC and Robo will be delayed.
But my point wasn't really to discuss the potency or viability of either races' cheeses. The point is that, usually when a Terran defends a cheese, he is often left with quite a competent army and a competent economy. If he takes any damage at all, it is often because he rushed medivacs or a third cc. In the opposite case, if a Terran cheeses, it is usually very close to being as strong as the other races, but the components of his cheese often compliments his standard play, and are not 'forgone' resources to the same extent as the other races. In the case of proxies, he can fly his structures back, in the case of bunkers, he can salvage etc.
This isn't necessarily a balance issue, as I feel like Terran has other disadvantages that make up for these features. However, if there had to be a nerf to Terran to address builds such as the 11/11, I think these back-end features are the easiest to implement as they don't compromise the strength of the Terran army.
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On September 17 2014 01:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 17:56 Chillidawg wrote:On September 16 2014 17:46 TheDwf wrote:On September 16 2014 17:30 Chillidawg wrote:
This discussion went completely off track. As I said, 2 rax openers are becoming more and more standard, since they are so strong, they come in different forms and are hard to scout. Looking at pros I see that even if they scout the opener, it can still do a lot of damage, and I feel like it's the agressive opener (avoiding the term "cheese" for obvious reasons) that have the most impact and the highest success rate, even if scouted directly with a overlord. Statistical evidence for that? No statistical evidence for it, as I said, just a feeling. I would love to see some statistics in pro games myself aswell. Based on games I saw (only Korean Terrans): 22/281 in August = proxy 2 rax used 7,82% of the time in TvZ So far in September: 7/63 = 11,1% of the time. Sample size in September is still too low to make a call, but so far I don't see anything convincing regarding a sudden increase in 2 rax lately.
I think there have been a couple more high profile 2 rax games lately (ie MMA vs. Snute in semifinals Dreamhack, Flash in GSL) that have gotten people all riled up about 2 raxes again. It's by no means a standard opening.
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On September 17 2014 00:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 23:11 Thezzy wrote:On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain. Try playing against a 5:05 Proxy Oracle, which can fail miserably without putting Protoss behind at all. Terran needs to have 6 Marines, a Widow Mine or a Turret in their mineral to defend against this. Scouting it is difficult because all you scout at the Protoss base is double gas and a missing pylon. Which means it could also be Blink or Dark Templar, both of which require different responses. If the Oracle flies straight into a Widow Mine, the game is still pretty much even, with the MSC defending the natural with PO against any potential counter pressure. If it succeeds, the SCVs get slaughtered and Protoss pretty much wins the game then and there. Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades. The missile turret that guards against this Oracle also defends against DTs. And Blink is much easier to scout (and easier to defend on these maps than it has ever been). If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind. EDIT - Think of how ridiculous that argument is: If Protoss can waste 300/300 and delay econ/tech/upgrades and still come out even with the Terran then why doesn't every single Protoss go for proxy 5:05 Oracle EVERY SINGLE GAME?
Granted, Protoss would be behind if the Oracle did fly straight into a Widow Mine, I may have overstated that somewhat.
That said, the Oracle itself provides complete map control and detection and forces an Engineering Bay + Turret if Terran ever wants to to move out. The Stargate can still produce other units or more Oracles afterwards as well.
With a standard Reaper play (Reaper > Reactor), you will not have enough Marines at home (you will have 4, you need 6) to defend against the Oracle.
Which means that Terran is given a difficult choice, because the Proxy Stargate can be put nearly anywhere on the map so you cannot garantuee a scout of the Stargate in time.
Either you blindly build an Engineering Bay and a Turret (225 minerals + SCV mining time) which may be useless if it turned out to be a Blink play or you risk dying to an Oracle. (Terran cannot know if it's Oracle or Blink or DT when you scout double gas and a missing pylon)
Note that an Engineering Bay + Turret takes 60 seconds (35 + 25) to setup, so you'd need to throw it down at 4:05 at the latest.
As such, scouting double gas and a missing pylon is a nightmare for me because I simply cannot know for sure what is coming. The map is far too large for a single Reaper to scout each proxy location and I can't start sending multiple SCVs every which way.
I also cannot spare any Marines for scouting due to the threat of the Oracle (as well as Stalkers) itself.
Normally against such a play I would consider trying counter pressure but the MSC prevents that.
As for why Protoss don't play it more often, I'm not sure. I'd guess other Terrans just blindly get the Engineering Bay and take the risk of being weakened against a Blink or DT play.
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Thezzy, I think you missed my post emphasising the distinct difference between a 5:05 oracle build and a standard double gas. I'm 100% sure that the SCV scout will spot this discrepancy, and the reaper might spot it. If scouting can't be denied and you can identify build by clicking on the geysers and counting gas, then surely it can't be as good as you claim it to be. If you scout the very early 13/14 gas, you have time to throw down a bunker and otherwise continue the build as usual. Then it doesn't matter if you have 4 marines as the oracle can't touch them from within the bunker. You might have to pull the scv for a little while, but it shouldn't be too long before you can get the 6 marines.
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On September 17 2014 02:55 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 00:31 DinoMight wrote:On September 16 2014 23:11 Thezzy wrote:On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain. Try playing against a 5:05 Proxy Oracle, which can fail miserably without putting Protoss behind at all. Terran needs to have 6 Marines, a Widow Mine or a Turret in their mineral to defend against this. Scouting it is difficult because all you scout at the Protoss base is double gas and a missing pylon. Which means it could also be Blink or Dark Templar, both of which require different responses. If the Oracle flies straight into a Widow Mine, the game is still pretty much even, with the MSC defending the natural with PO against any potential counter pressure. If it succeeds, the SCVs get slaughtered and Protoss pretty much wins the game then and there. Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades. The missile turret that guards against this Oracle also defends against DTs. And Blink is much easier to scout (and easier to defend on these maps than it has ever been). If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind. EDIT - Think of how ridiculous that argument is: If Protoss can waste 300/300 and delay econ/tech/upgrades and still come out even with the Terran then why doesn't every single Protoss go for proxy 5:05 Oracle EVERY SINGLE GAME? Granted, Protoss would be behind if the Oracle did fly straight into a Widow Mine, I may have overstated that somewhat. That said, the Oracle itself provides complete map control and detection and forces an Engineering Bay + Turret if Terran ever wants to to move out. The Stargate can still produce other units or more Oracles afterwards as well. With a standard Reaper play (Reaper > Reactor), you will not have enough Marines at home (you will have 4, you need 6) to defend against the Oracle. Which means that Terran is given a difficult choice, because the Proxy Stargate can be put nearly anywhere on the map so you cannot garantuee a scout of the Stargate in time. Either you blindly build an Engineering Bay and a Turret (225 minerals + SCV mining time) which may be useless if it turned out to be a Blink play or you risk dying to an Oracle. (Terran cannot know if it's Oracle or Blink or DT when you scout double gas and a missing pylon) Note that an Engineering Bay + Turret takes 60 seconds (35 + 25) to setup, so you'd need to throw it down at 4:05 at the latest. As such, scouting double gas and a missing pylon is a nightmare for me because I simply cannot know for sure what is coming. The map is far too large for a single Reaper to scout each proxy location and I can't start sending multiple SCVs every which way. I also cannot spare any Marines for scouting due to the threat of the Oracle (as well as Stalkers) itself. Normally against such a play I would consider trying counter pressure but the MSC prevents that. As for why Protoss don't play it more often, I'm not sure. I'd guess other Terrans just blindly get the Engineering Bay and take the risk of being weakened against a Blink or DT play.
I'm not a pro by any means but I've been facing a ton of blind turrets. Haven't opened Oracles in a while..just gets shut down and I'm behind...
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On September 17 2014 03:27 TokO wrote:
Thezzy, I think you missed my post emphasising the distinct difference between a 5:05 oracle build and a standard double gas. I'm 100% sure that the SCV scout will spot this discrepancy, and the reaper might spot it. If scouting can't be denied and you can identify build by clicking on the geysers and counting gas, then surely it can't be as good as you claim it to be. If you scout the very early 13/14 gas, you have time to throw down a bunker and otherwise continue the build as usual. Then it doesn't matter if you have 4 marines as the oracle can't touch them from within the bunker. You might have to pull the scv for a little while, but it shouldn't be too long before you can get the 6 marines.
I did miss that post, thanks! I wasn't aware the gas difference was that large.
I'll give it a try next time I scout double gas and see what the gas is at and then match it with the replay.
On September 17 2014 03:40 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 02:55 Thezzy wrote:On September 17 2014 00:31 DinoMight wrote:On September 16 2014 23:11 Thezzy wrote:On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain. Try playing against a 5:05 Proxy Oracle, which can fail miserably without putting Protoss behind at all. Terran needs to have 6 Marines, a Widow Mine or a Turret in their mineral to defend against this. Scouting it is difficult because all you scout at the Protoss base is double gas and a missing pylon. Which means it could also be Blink or Dark Templar, both of which require different responses. If the Oracle flies straight into a Widow Mine, the game is still pretty much even, with the MSC defending the natural with PO against any potential counter pressure. If it succeeds, the SCVs get slaughtered and Protoss pretty much wins the game then and there. Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades. The missile turret that guards against this Oracle also defends against DTs. And Blink is much easier to scout (and easier to defend on these maps than it has ever been). If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind. EDIT - Think of how ridiculous that argument is: If Protoss can waste 300/300 and delay econ/tech/upgrades and still come out even with the Terran then why doesn't every single Protoss go for proxy 5:05 Oracle EVERY SINGLE GAME? Granted, Protoss would be behind if the Oracle did fly straight into a Widow Mine, I may have overstated that somewhat. That said, the Oracle itself provides complete map control and detection and forces an Engineering Bay + Turret if Terran ever wants to to move out. The Stargate can still produce other units or more Oracles afterwards as well. With a standard Reaper play (Reaper > Reactor), you will not have enough Marines at home (you will have 4, you need 6) to defend against the Oracle. Which means that Terran is given a difficult choice, because the Proxy Stargate can be put nearly anywhere on the map so you cannot garantuee a scout of the Stargate in time. Either you blindly build an Engineering Bay and a Turret (225 minerals + SCV mining time) which may be useless if it turned out to be a Blink play or you risk dying to an Oracle. (Terran cannot know if it's Oracle or Blink or DT when you scout double gas and a missing pylon) Note that an Engineering Bay + Turret takes 60 seconds (35 + 25) to setup, so you'd need to throw it down at 4:05 at the latest. As such, scouting double gas and a missing pylon is a nightmare for me because I simply cannot know for sure what is coming. The map is far too large for a single Reaper to scout each proxy location and I can't start sending multiple SCVs every which way. I also cannot spare any Marines for scouting due to the threat of the Oracle (as well as Stalkers) itself. Normally against such a play I would consider trying counter pressure but the MSC prevents that. As for why Protoss don't play it more often, I'm not sure. I'd guess other Terrans just blindly get the Engineering Bay and take the risk of being weakened against a Blink or DT play. I'm not a pro by any means but I've been facing a ton of blind turrets. Haven't opened Oracles in a while..just gets shut down and I'm behind...
Hmm, I've always been of the opinion that getting anything blind is terrible.
For me, getting a blind Engineering Bay makes it feel like I'm taking a big risk against Blink or any regular Gateway pressure. I'm starting to realize that I might be overestimating the cost of the Turrets though.
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On September 17 2014 03:41 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 03:27 TokO wrote:
Thezzy, I think you missed my post emphasising the distinct difference between a 5:05 oracle build and a standard double gas. I'm 100% sure that the SCV scout will spot this discrepancy, and the reaper might spot it. If scouting can't be denied and you can identify build by clicking on the geysers and counting gas, then surely it can't be as good as you claim it to be. If you scout the very early 13/14 gas, you have time to throw down a bunker and otherwise continue the build as usual. Then it doesn't matter if you have 4 marines as the oracle can't touch them from within the bunker. You might have to pull the scv for a little while, but it shouldn't be too long before you can get the 6 marines. I did miss that post, thanks! I wasn't aware the gas difference was that large. I'll give it a try next time I scout double gas and see what the gas is at and then match it with the replay. Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 03:40 DinoMight wrote:On September 17 2014 02:55 Thezzy wrote:On September 17 2014 00:31 DinoMight wrote:On September 16 2014 23:11 Thezzy wrote:On September 16 2014 23:04 TokO wrote:
I think that the most frustrating thing about 2rax is the back-end qualiy of life features of Terran that makes it quite superior to similar early-tech strategies from other races. I'd love a nerf to repair costs, salvage and movement speed of lifted buildings.
The strength of the build isn't an issue I think, it's just how much of what's invested that's possible to retain. Try playing against a 5:05 Proxy Oracle, which can fail miserably without putting Protoss behind at all. Terran needs to have 6 Marines, a Widow Mine or a Turret in their mineral to defend against this. Scouting it is difficult because all you scout at the Protoss base is double gas and a missing pylon. Which means it could also be Blink or Dark Templar, both of which require different responses. If the Oracle flies straight into a Widow Mine, the game is still pretty much even, with the MSC defending the natural with PO against any potential counter pressure. If it succeeds, the SCVs get slaughtered and Protoss pretty much wins the game then and there. Typical whine - you have no idea what you're talking about. Any build that produces a 5:05 Oracle is skipping out on SOMETHING. That's 300/300 invested into Stargate plus Oracle and a weaker economy as a result of delaying the Nexus for the extra gas. Not to mention slower tech and upgrades. The missile turret that guards against this Oracle also defends against DTs. And Blink is much easier to scout (and easier to defend on these maps than it has ever been). If that Oracle doesn't get at least 6-7 kills the Protoss is definitely behind. Yes it's possible to be behind and outplay your opponent and still win. But the Protoss IS behind. EDIT - Think of how ridiculous that argument is: If Protoss can waste 300/300 and delay econ/tech/upgrades and still come out even with the Terran then why doesn't every single Protoss go for proxy 5:05 Oracle EVERY SINGLE GAME? Granted, Protoss would be behind if the Oracle did fly straight into a Widow Mine, I may have overstated that somewhat. That said, the Oracle itself provides complete map control and detection and forces an Engineering Bay + Turret if Terran ever wants to to move out. The Stargate can still produce other units or more Oracles afterwards as well. With a standard Reaper play (Reaper > Reactor), you will not have enough Marines at home (you will have 4, you need 6) to defend against the Oracle. Which means that Terran is given a difficult choice, because the Proxy Stargate can be put nearly anywhere on the map so you cannot garantuee a scout of the Stargate in time. Either you blindly build an Engineering Bay and a Turret (225 minerals + SCV mining time) which may be useless if it turned out to be a Blink play or you risk dying to an Oracle. (Terran cannot know if it's Oracle or Blink or DT when you scout double gas and a missing pylon) Note that an Engineering Bay + Turret takes 60 seconds (35 + 25) to setup, so you'd need to throw it down at 4:05 at the latest. As such, scouting double gas and a missing pylon is a nightmare for me because I simply cannot know for sure what is coming. The map is far too large for a single Reaper to scout each proxy location and I can't start sending multiple SCVs every which way. I also cannot spare any Marines for scouting due to the threat of the Oracle (as well as Stalkers) itself. Normally against such a play I would consider trying counter pressure but the MSC prevents that. As for why Protoss don't play it more often, I'm not sure. I'd guess other Terrans just blindly get the Engineering Bay and take the risk of being weakened against a Blink or DT play. I'm not a pro by any means but I've been facing a ton of blind turrets. Haven't opened Oracles in a while..just gets shut down and I'm behind... Hmm, I've always been of the opinion that getting anything blind is terrible. For me, getting a blind Engineering Bay makes it feel like I'm taking a big risk against Blink or any regular Gateway pressure. I'm starting to realize that I might be overestimating the cost of the Turrets though.
Blind defensive structures are meta dependent. Not building spines is greedy in a 2rax meta, but blind spines in a cc first meta is bad. Same with turrets. If oracle is popular, blind turrets are good.
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I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus.
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On September 17 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
I think it simply comes down to not being confident in scouting. I think many Terrans on an intermediate level don't mind investing a bit extra in turrets if it means not having to worry about oracles at all. I think it usually comes in response of scouting double gas and no quick nexus.
Unless you're playing at the top level, the 100-200 you spend on Turrets is worth it vs. losing the game instantly, and both players will make enough mistakes throughout the course of the game that it won't matter.
However, in GSL you'll see players cutting every single corner to get ahead and sometimes that means they lose to an Oracle.
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EPT
