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On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions.
everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate
literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage
allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent
cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker
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On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker I just don't really agree with this. Most games the 2 rax will be scouted either directly or indirectly, which allows Z to prepare for the 2-rax. The game THEN comes down to the micro, positioning, and decision-making of each player. Z being pinned in their base means T can grab a CC and transition into normal play, and the delayed econ of T means that Z can defend without losing too many drones and transition into a late third with (again) otherwise normal-looking play. Proper play on both sides leads to a normal game, which is why I consider it a pressure and not a cheese.
There are cheesy elements due to the speed with which it comes but besides that most 2-raxes I see end up leading to extremely standard games.
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On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker
What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense.
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On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense.
EDIT: I realize you're referring to his specific comment on "normal timing" and "when they can scout your base" when in reality it's just banking on the strategy not necessarily being scouted, whether it's DT, cannons, oracle, factory float into the main (WM), super fast (hidden) cloakshee, roach/ling all-in, bane-allin, 10p speed, etc. They all bank on not being scouted in time for your opponent to react.
For example, I wouldn't have considered the 1-1-1 in WoL a cheese, but just an all-in, although clearly a ton of them over lap, especially with Zerg.
From Liquipedia**
Cheese
Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute.
Players will not always cheese for an outright win. In certain scenarios, cheese can be used to either force a low-econ game or to gain an early advantage. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal. Thus, the cheesing player is given a chance to come back from an otherwise lost game or the possibility to outwit a stronger opponent. A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack.
The most common cheese openings, like Bunker, Cannon, 6/7/10pool and Proxy rushes, prey upon the economic style's need for workers in early defense. Others invest in early tech that must be countered in a specific way. Some are more nuanced: seven and five Roach into Speedling Zerg vs Protoss, and Hellion into two port Banshee pressure Terran vs Zerg, rely on forcing a certain enemy tech choice and then countering it decisively as it is deployed (In the first case the Roaches bust the wall and force Stalkers; in the second case the Hellions force speed/Spines/Queens/Roaches and delay Lair). Here, the cheesing player gains the advantage by assuming that his opponent will react to what he sees in a "smart" way. Like most cheese, these builds are much easier to stop once a player has gained a familiarity with them. This is why many cheese builds surge in popularity on the ladder, only to disappear weeks later.
Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility. The cheesing player is making a wager that the defending player will have some sort of oversight in his build. Examples are: Lack of detection against Dark Templars or Banshees, lack of anti-air against certain Stargate builds, or economic greediness against a two raxing Terran. However, the cheesing player is usually putting himself at a large deficit in the long run by attempting to expose this weakness. In certain cases (see: BitByBit) the cheesing player will put 100% of his economy on the line in attempting an early win.
vs
All-in
The term all-in has its roots in Poker. A player who puts all of their money/chips into the pot on a single hand is going "all-in". Similarly in StarCraft, a player is considered all-in when he executes a strategy, usually a large attack that commits all their units, that has no planned follow-up. If the strategy fails he will typically tap out, concede defeat and the game will end.
This term is relative to the state of the game being played. A player will often go all-in if he feels like he is has no other options but to attempt to end the game quickly from his current position. This indicates a feeling of being behind in an unrecoverable way.
All-in strategies generally have the aim of overwhelming an opponent who has gone for a standard strategy. By cutting economics and focusing entirely on unit production for a sustained attack, players can have vastly superior armies at points not previously attainable. Due to the loss in economy players will live or die based on whether the attack is successful or not. What is all-in for a player depends somewhat on the player's skill on both sides of the fight. A weaker player may not be able to capitalise on what would be considered an all-in attack and therefore the attack would be safer.
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On September 15 2014 13:13 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. EDIT: I realize you're referring to his specific comment on "normal timing" and "when they can scout your base" when in reality it's just banking on the strategy not necessarily being scouted, whether it's DT, cannons, oracle, factory float into the main (WM), super fast (hidden) cloakshee, roach/ling all-in, bane-allin, 10p speed, etc. They all bank on not being scouted in time for your opponent to react. For example, I wouldn't have considered the 1-1-1 in WoL a cheese, but just an all-in, although clearly a ton of them over lap, especially with Zerg. From Liquipedia** Show nested quote +Cheese
Cheese most often refers to an unexpected strategy that relies in large parts on lack of information and/or psychological impact on the opponent. Cheese build orders typically revolve around an early attack that, if undetected, is more difficult to defend than execute.
Players will not always cheese for an outright win. In certain scenarios, cheese can be used to either force a low-econ game or to gain an early advantage. The unbalanced nature of cheese usually serve to make decision making on the defending side more fatal. Thus, the cheesing player is given a chance to come back from an otherwise lost game or the possibility to outwit a stronger opponent. A common form in practice is to neglect a long term viable economy to be able to produce a couple of extra units for attack.
The most common cheese openings, like Bunker, Cannon, 6/7/10pool and Proxy rushes, prey upon the economic style's need for workers in early defense. Others invest in early tech that must be countered in a specific way. Some are more nuanced: seven and five Roach into Speedling Zerg vs Protoss, and Hellion into two port Banshee pressure Terran vs Zerg, rely on forcing a certain enemy tech choice and then countering it decisively as it is deployed (In the first case the Roaches bust the wall and force Stalkers; in the second case the Hellions force speed/Spines/Queens/Roaches and delay Lair). Here, the cheesing player gains the advantage by assuming that his opponent will react to what he sees in a "smart" way. Like most cheese, these builds are much easier to stop once a player has gained a familiarity with them. This is why many cheese builds surge in popularity on the ladder, only to disappear weeks later.
Cheese is usually characterized by its strategic fragility. The cheesing player is making a wager that the defending player will have some sort of oversight in his build. Examples are: Lack of detection against Dark Templars or Banshees, lack of anti-air against certain Stargate builds, or economic greediness against a two raxing Terran. However, the cheesing player is usually putting himself at a large deficit in the long run by attempting to expose this weakness. In certain cases (see: BitByBit) the cheesing player will put 100% of his economy on the line in attempting an early win. vs Show nested quote +All-in
The term all-in has its roots in Poker. A player who puts all of their money/chips into the pot on a single hand is going "all-in". Similarly in StarCraft, a player is considered all-in when he executes a strategy, usually a large attack that commits all their units, that has no planned follow-up. If the strategy fails he will typically tap out, concede defeat and the game will end.
This term is relative to the state of the game being played. A player will often go all-in if he feels like he is has no other options but to attempt to end the game quickly from his current position. This indicates a feeling of being behind in an unrecoverable way.
All-in strategies generally have the aim of overwhelming an opponent who has gone for a standard strategy. By cutting economics and focusing entirely on unit production for a sustained attack, players can have vastly superior armies at points not previously attainable. Due to the loss in economy players will live or die based on whether the attack is successful or not. What is all-in for a player depends somewhat on the player's skill on both sides of the fight. A weaker player may not be able to capitalise on what would be considered an all-in attack and therefore the attack would be safer.
I find most people simply describe strats they dislike playing against as cheese/all in. Hence why I wanted his specificity. Otherwise it falls down to the common "not my fault" gut reactions.
I lost vs 1 base? imba Cheese.
I lost vs 2base? imba all in.
I lost vs 3base? imba timing attack.
I lost vs 4base? Imba race.
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On September 15 2014 01:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
Besides, often a 2rax opening leads into a longer game too. It's not like it was before, it's a more common opening now because of this.
The problem with 2-rax, and any cheese in general, is that it requires your opponent to react prefectly. If they somehow manage this, they will survive and be ahead. Anything but perfect reaction ends in a lead for the Terran.
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On September 15 2014 16:16 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 01:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
Besides, often a 2rax opening leads into a longer game too. It's not like it was before, it's a more common opening now because of this. The problem with 2-rax, and any cheese in general, is that it requires your opponent to react prefectly. If they somehow manage this, they will survive and be ahead. Anything but perfect reaction ends in a lead for the Terran.
When 2 raxing the Terran needs to be competent as well. If they don't, the Zerg doesn't have to play perfectly if the Terran misplaces his bunker or pulls too many/too few scvs, or if they play a 12/13 Rax like a proxy 11/11 and end up not getting the bunkers up at all. And let's face it, outside the very top players, people don't play perfectly every time. 2-Rax is also kind of a weird case and I don't see it as straight up cheese because in many cases the goal is not to kill the hatchery but to force defenses and more units instead of drones.
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On September 16 2014 03:35 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 16:16 ReMinD_ wrote:On September 15 2014 01:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
Besides, often a 2rax opening leads into a longer game too. It's not like it was before, it's a more common opening now because of this. The problem with 2-rax, and any cheese in general, is that it requires your opponent to react prefectly. If they somehow manage this, they will survive and be ahead. Anything but perfect reaction ends in a lead for the Terran. When 2 raxing the Terran needs to be competent as well. If they don't, the Zerg doesn't have to play perfectly if the Terran misplaces his bunker or pulls too many/too few scvs, or if they play a 12/13 Rax like a proxy 11/11 and end up not getting the bunkers up at all. And let's face it, outside the very top players, people don't play perfectly every time. 2-Rax is also kind of a weird case and I don't see it as straight up cheese because in many cases the goal is not to kill the hatchery but to force defenses and more units instead of drones.
And if WoL taught us anything, 15hatch mass drones + spine is the hard counter to 2rax
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On September 16 2014 03:47 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 03:35 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 15 2014 16:16 ReMinD_ wrote:On September 15 2014 01:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
Besides, often a 2rax opening leads into a longer game too. It's not like it was before, it's a more common opening now because of this. The problem with 2-rax, and any cheese in general, is that it requires your opponent to react prefectly. If they somehow manage this, they will survive and be ahead. Anything but perfect reaction ends in a lead for the Terran. When 2 raxing the Terran needs to be competent as well. If they don't, the Zerg doesn't have to play perfectly if the Terran misplaces his bunker or pulls too many/too few scvs, or if they play a 12/13 Rax like a proxy 11/11 and end up not getting the bunkers up at all. And let's face it, outside the very top players, people don't play perfectly every time. 2-Rax is also kind of a weird case and I don't see it as straight up cheese because in many cases the goal is not to kill the hatchery but to force defenses and more units instead of drones. And if WoL taught us anything, 15hatch mass drones + spine is the hard counter to 2rax
If memory serves me, back in WoL we would 15 hatch, mass drone and cancel the spine if we thought the drones can handle it on their own 
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On September 16 2014 04:01 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 03:47 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 03:35 MstrJinbo wrote:On September 15 2014 16:16 ReMinD_ wrote:On September 15 2014 01:06 cheekymonkey wrote:
Besides, often a 2rax opening leads into a longer game too. It's not like it was before, it's a more common opening now because of this. The problem with 2-rax, and any cheese in general, is that it requires your opponent to react prefectly. If they somehow manage this, they will survive and be ahead. Anything but perfect reaction ends in a lead for the Terran. When 2 raxing the Terran needs to be competent as well. If they don't, the Zerg doesn't have to play perfectly if the Terran misplaces his bunker or pulls too many/too few scvs, or if they play a 12/13 Rax like a proxy 11/11 and end up not getting the bunkers up at all. And let's face it, outside the very top players, people don't play perfectly every time. 2-Rax is also kind of a weird case and I don't see it as straight up cheese because in many cases the goal is not to kill the hatchery but to force defenses and more units instead of drones. And if WoL taught us anything, 15hatch mass drones + spine is the hard counter to 2rax If memory serves me, back in WoL we would 15 hatch, mass drone and cancel the spine if we thought the drones can handle it on their own
Oh the good ol days when Zerg had less options vs a faster 2rax play.
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Northern Ireland26297 Posts
2 rax occupies a nice spot for me, a big enough gamble with enough difficulty in execution and is still holdable with correct responses and good control.
I've always found the coinflippy builds where success/failure depends entirely on factors outside of your control more irritating to watch. Proxy builds relying on the opponent skipping detection that kind of thing.
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On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense.
huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is
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On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is
So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it.
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On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it.
Is this sarcasm or just stupidity?
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On September 16 2014 09:48 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it. Is this sarcasm or just stupidity?
6pool can be beaten by drone micro. Making it only slightly scarier than a worker rush. The other two cuts worker production--making them the easiest builds to scout in the game. None of your examples are either hard to spot or impossible to stop with standard play. Cannon rush is also easy to scout.
And yet the only definition you have for a cheese is hard to scout when all of them are easy to spot with a 9/10 scout. That means the only form of scouting you're using is an overlord.
Maybe you should actually think through with your statements instead of talking with arbitrary supposed truisms.
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On September 16 2014 10:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 09:48 bo1b wrote:On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it. Is this sarcasm or just stupidity? 6pool can be beaten by drone micro. Making it only slightly scarier than a worker rush. The other two cuts worker production--making them the easiest builds to scout in the game. None of your examples are either hard to spot or impossible to stop with standard play. Cannon rush is also easy to scout. And yet the only definition you have for a cheese is hard to scout when all of them are easy to spot with a 9/10 scout. That means the only form of scouting you're using is an overlord. Maybe you should actually think through with your statements instead of talking with arbitrary supposed truisms.
So you don't think 6-pool is cheese?
Btw you're responding to the wrong person.
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On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it.
again you're trying to make this about racial whine or something when im only posting my opinions academically, which continues to make you look very foolish. yes im using overlord scouts because i play zerg and thats the example easiest for me to use, no the implication is not that zerg defines what cheese is. if youre only here to take passive aggressive pot shots rather than discuss constructively then id rather not continue with you
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On September 16 2014 11:02 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it. again you're trying to make this about racial whine or something when im only posting my opinions academically, which continues to make you look very foolish. yes im using overlord scouts because i play zerg and thats the example easiest for me to use, no the implication is not that zerg defines what cheese is. if youre only here to take passive aggressive pot shots rather than discuss constructively then id rather not continue with you
Just read his some of his posts over the last last 10-20 pages. He has a habit of misinterpreting views just so he can have something to disagree with.
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On September 16 2014 12:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 11:02 brickrd wrote:On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it. again you're trying to make this about racial whine or something when im only posting my opinions academically, which continues to make you look very foolish. yes im using overlord scouts because i play zerg and thats the example easiest for me to use, no the implication is not that zerg defines what cheese is. if youre only here to take passive aggressive pot shots rather than discuss constructively then id rather not continue with you Just read his some of his posts over the last last 10-20 pages. He has a habit of misinterpreting views just so he can have something to disagree with.
ah well i only pop in here once in a while so i guess i dont know who to watch out for. i understand a lot of people whine about races/balance/cheese/etc, but i dont understand treating me as one of those people when i literally never said anything negative about cheese nor terran nor anything really... if he wants people with dumb whiny views to argue with it's pretty easy to do that at the battle.net forums
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On September 16 2014 10:31 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2014 10:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 09:48 bo1b wrote:On September 16 2014 09:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 16 2014 09:22 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 13:07 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 15 2014 12:50 brickrd wrote:On September 15 2014 12:45 RampancyTW wrote:
I don't know if I'd consider 2-rax cheese. It typically leads to a pretty even situation for both parties assuming equal levels of play and with the way each race's follow-up works it almost always transitions into a "normal"-looking game. I'd consider it more of a committed pressure build.
It hits super early, yeah, but it isn't cheesy in how it plays outside of a few map-specific bunker positions. everyone has a different definition of cheese but to me cheese is a build you do thats banking entirely on having aggressive potential before your opponent scouts your base with a normal timing. and 2rax definitely falls under that category. if a competent zerg player knows with 100% certainty that 2rax is coming then it should be a lost game for terran, just like a 6pool or a proxy 2gate literally anything can have a followup provided you do enough damage allin = you are cutting long term economy to commit to your attack. you can still transition off an allin if it semi-works and you do damage but don't kill your opponent cheese = banking on being unscoutable by anything other than a super safe early map scout with a worker What is a normal timing to you? What timing attack is zerg doing in the "normal" time slots that hits terran? Your definition is vague and makes no sense. huh? normal timing is when the ovie reaches his base. its limited by game mechanics, overlord has a set speed. sounds like youre trying to paint me as some kind of build or race whiner when all im doing is defining a term, which is very annoying. i used very specific examples, 2gate, 6pool, 2rax all of these things are going to be in your face by the time you scout them, theres no option to make your overlord go faster. 9/10 worker scout to their base isnt going to help either because in zvz its terrible/unnecessary and in the other matchups you still have to confirm that its not expo first and what kind of proxy it is So you're saying it's cheesy if Zerg can't spot it with just an overlord scout? Got it. Is this sarcasm or just stupidity? 6pool can be beaten by drone micro. Making it only slightly scarier than a worker rush. The other two cuts worker production--making them the easiest builds to scout in the game. None of your examples are either hard to spot or impossible to stop with standard play. Cannon rush is also easy to scout. And yet the only definition you have for a cheese is hard to scout when all of them are easy to spot with a 9/10 scout. That means the only form of scouting you're using is an overlord. Maybe you should actually think through with your statements instead of talking with arbitrary supposed truisms. So you don't think 6-pool is cheese? Btw you're responding to the wrong person.
I do believe 6pool is cheese. But not because you can't scout it. In fact, every precise definition people try to throw will always have an example showing a cheese that doesn't fit. The reason is because cheese is not a specific action, but the breaking of a moral code in the RTS community. 6pool is cheese because you're not supposed to do it. You paid $60 for a game where you build a base and you make an army and you fight in the field of battle. Circumventing the base building part feels wrong. DT rush is cheese because it circumvents direct unit combat. 2gate is cheese because it breaks the unspoken rule that Protoss buildings are not supposed to be as mobile as Terran. Etc...
Every cheese is a dishonorable act that breaks the unspoken rules of the gaming community. It has nothing to do with scouting and it has nothing to do with metrics.
Trying to make it about metrics leads to weird things like someone talking about how cheese is about being unscoutablr and uses 3 easy to scout strategies as his example. This is the problem with trying to be objective about a subjective topic. Cheese builds can sacrifice anything to gain an advantage--but even normal builds do that. What makes it cheesy is when the sacrifice is one not condoned by the community. A sacrifice deemed too much or for too much gain. No matter the game there will always be "cheese" because gamers always play with unspoken rules tha they believe everyone should follow.
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