EPTOn September 21 2014 20:02 Decendos wrote:
also i win more when playing T on my Z main account :D
also i win more when playing T on my Z main account :D
Definitly an evidence of imbalance.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1096
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
Definitly an evidence of imbalance. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up  | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IaF4Rp3.png) Another list period is over, albeit the number of games is still lower than the regular number. Still, there are nearly twice as many games as in 118, so the results should be more representative. In terms of winrates, P and T are pretty even, with P having a marginal advantage. The change from the previous list was 4 points, from 47% to 51%. Z and P are also even, with Z having a marginal advantage.The change from the previous list was 1 point, from 48% to 49%. And T and Z are better than before, but with T having an advantage. The change from the previous list was 2 points, from 56% to 54%. In terms of population numbers, there were once again many more ZvZs than PvPs or TvTs. With 2.4x more ZvZ than TvT and 1.7x more ZvZ than PvP. The number of Z games might be explained by the fact that Z is doing better against P, and there being more P than T in competitions. Overall, no generalizations can really be made from this data, but we can probably soon look at the overall trend once there are more games collected. On September 04 2014 23:37 Ghanburighan wrote: Aligulac list 118. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mpO5wqJ.png) Here's the second list after the patch. Let's first look at winrates. P has clawed back a bit against T (47% versus the previous 45%). P has also lost the same amount of percentage points against Z (47% versus the previous 49%). T significantly improved its result versus Z (56% versus the previous 50%). It should also be noticed (according to preliminary results posted in the thread) that in the beginning of the period the winrates were further away from 50%, while later games allowed both P and Z to make up several percentage points. It has to be noted, though, that there were only ~1/3 of the games that you usually see in an Aligulac list due to the holidays. So all winrates need to be taken with an even greater bit of salt than usually. (With these low numbers a single 4-0 results in a full percentage point swing). As for population numbers, they continue to even out. TvTs make up 80% of PvPs while previously they made up 68%. Albeit TvTs make up 46% of ZvZs while last time they made up 58% of ZvZs. And PvPs make up 56% of ZvZs while they previously made up 85% of ZvZs. So ZvZ numbers are on the rise again (Z improved against P both in terms of winrate and population) but the numbers are still in the same ballpark as last time, rather than showing differences of multiple times as before the patch. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote: Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote: Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up well with underperforming i didnt mean less good than prepatch (which is obv if T gets 2 buffs) but underperforming in terms of balance. and like i said its too early to tell if TvZ is broken but if the trend continues of TvZ being around 55% winrate for T then there can be buffs to balance it out and i really would love to see buffs to underused and creative strats like nydus, drops or burrow movement. but as you said blizz doesnt seem to like it so if they patch they will probably do something to make ling bane muta stronger...yay... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:22 ZenithM wrote: Terran is at its rightful place. Its role is to be either monstrously dominant, or terrifyingly bad. Let's just hope Terran players earn some money to prevent them to face retirement when things go awry again. I wonder if this is true and assuming it is, whether this stems from blizzard always trying to balance Terran around "giving them enough aggression to keep the other races low". Which is just such a thin line to walk, that you are either in the scenario that everybody can do it and you need extraordinary P/Z players to hold against Terrans standard play or you need extraordinary T players to make standard play work against Protoss and Zerg. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. TvZ was only balanced in winrates if you ignore a ton of other important statistics that come with that. Terran was in a shit place. Is Terran slightly to strong now? I don't know, maybe. We just have to give Zergs the time to either reinvent Mutalisk control (Thor/Mine really hampers the clumps) or design new transitions (Swarm Hosts). | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote: Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
We're not in a very active period so there are less games than in the previous months, but for instance in this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MSI_Beat_IT/South_Korean_Qualifier We had: 14 TvT, 21 ZvZ 49-46 TvZ | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote: What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? Cure channeled his inner bomber in game two going a fairly greed 3CC on a game and scarlett did a roach ling allin. Game 1 and 3 were hellbat openings into 3 CC. Scarlett did a two base muta, held off the hellbats, was in a good spot but couldn't hold on after cure's 3rd kicked in and he started continuously rallying forces to her fourth. Scarlett fought admirably but had too many costly engagements to hold. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 21 2014 21:20 TheDwf wrote: As usual some people overreact based on the flavor of the week series, ignorant of where the long-term flow is heading (hint: it's not towards Terran...). At Korean level I don't witness at all the apocalypse some people describe here. We're not in a very active period so there are less games than in the previous months, but for instance in this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_MSI_Beat_IT/South_Korean_Qualifier We had: 14 TvT, 21 ZvZ 49-46 TvZ Well, I think what actually makes people go crazy about Terran is that after half a year of Protoss dominance, Terran might still just become the most successful race 2014. Again. Which would mean that Terran has won the most Premier tournaments in 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014 (with 13 Premier wins in 2012, compared to the 16 that "patchzergs" took), while their players continuously annoy every other Starcraft player by claiming that they go through one dark age after another. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 21 2014 22:00 Grumbels wrote: Starcraft 2 will never be balanced. Why not let terran get a few wins before another series of patches to buff zerg or whatever? This way at least there are some terran pro players that can prolong their careers. Not sure if sarcasm or not?! | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Not really. As spectators we care about integrity of the competitive scene, i.e. making sure that race is not a factor in determining the winner of a tournament. However, that integrity is undermined when all sorts of point systems and qualifiers would keep a previously more powerful race entrenched in a better position. And players whose professional careers suffered from unfair distribution of prize money and such won't care that much about competitive integrity either, they might desire reparations, for instance in the form of a period of opposite imbalance. And Starcraft 2 being what it is, one race will always be a bit stronger or weaker than the other races. It's obviously possible for Blizzard to approach balance always from the direction that complements these previous concerns. So when terran has been weak for a long time, you try to approach a balanced game from the starting point of terran being too strong, and then you make small adjustments towards the middle. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 21 2014 22:16 Grumbels wrote: Not really. As spectators we care about integrity of the competitive scene, i.e. making sure that race is not a factor in determining the winner of a tournament. However, that integrity is undermined when all sorts of point systems and qualifiers would keep a previously more powerful race entrenched in a better position. And players whose professional careers suffered from unfair distribution of prize money and such won't care that much about competitive integrity either, they might desire reparations, for instance in the form of a period of opposite imbalance. And Starcraft 2 being what it is, one race will always be a bit stronger or weaker than the other races. It's obviously possible for Blizzard to approach balance always from the direction that complements these previous concerns. So when terran has been weak for a long time, you try to approach a balanced game from the starting point of terran being too strong, and then you make small adjustments towards the middle. PvZ has been in a pretty good spot for a long time now. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On September 21 2014 21:40 Big J wrote: Well, I think what actually makes people go crazy about Terran is that after half a year of Protoss dominance, Terran might still just become the most successful race 2014. Again. Which would mean that Terran has won the most Premier tournaments in 2010, 2011, 2013 and 2014 (with 13 Premier wins in 2012, compared to the 16 that "patchzergs" took), while their players continuously annoy every other Starcraft player by claiming that they go through one dark age after another. Kinda have agree with Big J in that when you look how many major tournaments zerg has won and the whine about OP zerg one would have thought zerg was winning left and right but it´s mainly P and T players that have won big tournaments. You can argue about the reasons for that but thats how things are. | ||
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