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On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up  Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance.
Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense.
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On September 22 2014 01:26 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance. Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense.
And an infestor or swarmhost can kill infinite units for free.
I'd trade widow mines for storm any day.
The game is not designed to be symmetrical. If you make mistakes you will be punished. Half a second of inattention can destroy your army in every matchup (except ZvZ roach wars).
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On September 22 2014 01:26 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance. Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense.
Don't forget mines have a cooldown which makes them for a longer time useless, also due to the burrow mechanics they are not the most mobile unit.
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On September 22 2014 01:26 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance. Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense.
Lets not forget all the widow-mines that end up beings duds or do friendly-fire damage. Widow mines are just not consistent enough for a straight forward cost comparison.
If mines did damage consistently, then definitely reduce the damage. But for a unit that quite often doesn't do much, it really has to do damage to be worth it when it does connect.
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On September 22 2014 01:37 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 01:26 parkufarku wrote:On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance. Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense. Lets not forget all the widow-mines that end up beings duds or do friendly-fire damage. Widow mines are just not consistent enough for a straight forward cost comparison. If mines did damage consistently, then definitely reduce the damage. But for a unit that quite often doesn't do much, it really has to do damage to be worth it when it does connect.
And especially for one that has pretty solid counterplay, watch old Zerg vods (especially Soulkey / DRG) before the originial Mine Nerf and you'll see they send in waves of ling / bling at a time rather than rushing in with their whole army, and relying on counterattacks to deal economic damage rather than winning an engagement and rushing forward with their whole army to attempt to win the game. IMO Zerg players need to move back to this style.
edit: Not saying the widow mine buff wasn't too much, but I think it's too soon to tell for certain. Widow mines seemed very OP at first, but with only the overseer speed buff we saw Zerg players dealing with them much much better (to the point of 50/50 winrates) before the nerf occurred.
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Northern Ireland26507 Posts
For the guy arguing earlier, no BL/Infestor was by a country mile the worst extended period of the game I can recall.
It was just so stupid, droning hardcore defending with a bunch of Infestors and rushing to the doom army.
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On September 22 2014 01:26 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance. Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense.
Um... I said Scarlett should just have split her banelings better. I actually like the widow mine and would not be against one more buff to it. What do you mean that I'm the one trying to dictate with emotion?
Someone asked why there was a surge of terran OP showing up in just one page. Scarlett got beaten by polt with widow mines in the win-and-in match, surge of terran OP shows up. So I pointed out the correlation.
I think you'll find I'm the annoying guy in this thread that constantly tells people that the game is not imbalanced right now.
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On September 22 2014 01:26 r691175002 wrote:
Since all the Protoss seem to be coming out of the woodwork, let me ensure everyone is on the same page with facts here
Some of the worst cherry picking of results I've ever seen. Conveniently you forgot the period of time (now) where Terran is winning 80% of all tournaments, and placing second in the rest.
P.S. Yet another TvT finals. This time at the Redbull BG Finals. And it's a possibility even the third place is a Terran.
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On September 22 2014 02:02 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 01:37 plogamer wrote:On September 22 2014 01:26 parkufarku wrote:On September 22 2014 00:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 21:17 Ghanburighan wrote:On September 21 2014 21:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 21 2014 20:41 Faust852 wrote:On September 21 2014 20:18 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On September 21 2014 20:15 SC2Toastie wrote:Just coming in here to say that this 'Zerg underperforming' has nothing to do with balance but is a logical occurance as a result of buffs to the Terran race. Also, Blizzard seems to neglect drops/nydus, so don't get your hopes up Right.. TvZ was fairly balanced before the last patch. Sure the mass muta would sometimes still a problem so that thor buff was fine in my opinion. But how can they justify that mine buff? They just did that cuz every terran and their mother was whining. Yeah, and on what bases are you saying that terran is dominant right now ? The #scarlettwasrobbed base. What happened? I just saw the results, Scarlett lost to Cure and Polt 2-1, which I thought was a better than expected result (at least against Cure). What were the games like? It was actually the Polt game. She won game 1, was ahead game two and three until widow mine shots destroyed her clumped up banes. I can see how some players would get upset by tide turning moments like that. Realistically the answer is to not clump up banes when your opponent has been using widowmines for the past 45 minutes, but people like to use emotions to dictate balance. Oh emotion? You're the one who is using emotions to dictate balance here. a 75 mineral 25 gas unit blowing up 1300+ mineral 1000+ gas worth of units, makes sense. Lets not forget all the widow-mines that end up beings duds or do friendly-fire damage. Widow mines are just not consistent enough for a straight forward cost comparison. If mines did damage consistently, then definitely reduce the damage. But for a unit that quite often doesn't do much, it really has to do damage to be worth it when it does connect. And especially for one that has pretty solid counterplay, watch old Zerg vods (especially Soulkey / DRG) before the originial Mine Nerf and you'll see they send in waves of ling / bling at a time rather than rushing in with their whole army, and relying on counterattacks to deal economic damage rather than winning an engagement and rushing forward with their whole army to attempt to win the game. IMO Zerg players need to move back to this style. edit: Not saying the widow mine buff wasn't too much, but I think it's too soon to tell for certain. Widow mines seemed very OP at first, but with only the overseer speed buff we saw Zerg players dealing with them much much better (to the point of 50/50 winrates) before the nerf occurred.
The best zergs spined up their fourth while keeping the bare minimum of banelings there (so Terran can't trade with small groups but the baneling count prevents them from running their entire army up at once), counterattacked with the rest of the ground forces which weren't drop defense, and slowly built up to a very large muta cloud while taking and spining more expansions, mostly sticking on ling/bling until they got an advantage, and they could switch into higher tech. Many zergs also timed attacks to kill the fourth before it PF'd and leave before the Terran army could get there. Ex: DRG vs. Innovation, Curious vs. Innovation, Soulkey games, some games from Effort, and even some games from Scarlett against Maru or Bomber.
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I had the impression that most people calling Terran OP the last 24 hours were primarily zergs. (Protosses just had the very draining TvOracle discussion from a perspective of P strong.). I don't really see any of the data suggesting Terran being favoured against Protoss, or that Terran wins are by any stretch conclusive at all. Flash-Zest and Cure-Trap are both matches possibly affected by the WCS system, and therefore hard to include in any determination of balance. I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging.
I think that the latest changes have motivated Terran to play a larger variety of builds, and Zerg almost always struggles when facing variety. I think Zerg needs a lot of time to reach their optimal strength, as well as benefitting from their match-ups being stale, therefore, the new playstyles from Terran are expected to cause Zerg ZvT win-rates to decrease.
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On September 22 2014 02:49 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 01:26 r691175002 wrote:
Since all the Protoss seem to be coming out of the woodwork, let me ensure everyone is on the same page with facts here Some of the worst cherry picking of results I've ever seen. Conveniently you forgot the period of time ( now) where Terran is winning 80% of all tournaments, and placing second in the rest. P.S. Yet another TvT finals. This time at the Redbull BG Finals. And it's a possibility even the third place is a Terran.
My mistake. I didn't realize that Terran winning two consecutive tournaments constitutes a balance emergency.
Just one problem - I skipped back 50 pages and I see a bunch of posts claiming that when a race can win 6+ consecutive premiere tournaments is because its players are more skilled and everyone else is slumping...
PS. How is it cherry picking to take a complete sample of all games played in a predetermined time period (Bl/Festor, Protoss)? The only stated purpose of the data was to conclusively prove that Protoss a higher win rate and longer period of domination when compared to BL/Festor.
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[QUOTE]On September 22 2014 03:03 TokO wrote:
I had the impression that most people calling Terran OP the last 24 hours were primarily zergs. (Protosses just had the very draining TvOracle discussion from a perspective of P strong.). I don't really see any of the data suggesting Terran being favoured against Protoss, or that Terran wins are by any stretch conclusive at all.
Look at aligulac's balance report buddy and that will show you the evidence you are looking for. Protoss has a 45.9 percent win rate against Terran right now, and Zerg has a bout a 48% in the ZvT matchup. There is very clear data that Terran are winning in all matchups following the patches. The real question is not whether they are winning, but if the players of the other races can adapt to the patch changes and win rates will balance or if the patch was too much. Time will tell.
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On September 22 2014 03:03 TokO wrote:
I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging.
You mean the Rain-Zest-herO-HerO-San-sOs-Dear-Classic-MC-StarDust-Pigbaby period of Protoss domination, where any Terran build except Reaper FE -> 3 Rax struggled to get the necessary scouting information to react to the large variety of Protoss timing attacks / openings and still have the infrastructure to defend them?
Terran didn't show a lack of innovation during this period, a lot of different mid-late game playstyles emerged (from Maru-esque 2 base in-your-face no-third-for-you constant aggression to Ty-esque I will drop you in 10 different locations to Polt-esque macro to three bases and start sniping Nexii while building PF's at home to defend the inevitable counterattack to Taeja-esque I will have perfect control and never lose an engagement ghost-viking styles), but the openings looked the same because there was only 1, potentially 2 openings that could consistently get Terran players into the midgame on even footing.
edit: I don't think Protoss domination during this period was nearly as bad as the Bl-Infestor era was at the end of Wings, because I feel like Terran had the necessary tools to deal with everything Protoss could throw at them effectively, but Protoss definitely was dominate for along period and it wasn't due to a lack of Terran innovation.
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On September 22 2014 03:33 ZombieFrog wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2014 03:03 TokO wrote:
I had the impression that most people calling Terran OP the last 24 hours were primarily zergs. (Protosses just had the very draining TvOracle discussion from a perspective of P strong.). I don't really see any of the data suggesting Terran being favoured against Protoss, or that Terran wins are by any stretch conclusive at all. Look at aligulac's balance report buddy and that will show you the evidence you are looking for. Protoss has a 45.9 percent win rate against Terran right now, and Zerg has a bout a 48% in the ZvT matchup. There is very clear data that Terran are winning in all matchups following the patches. The real question is not whether they are winning, but if the players of the other races can adapt to the patch changes and win rates will balance or if the patch was too much. Time will tell.
That's the point though, winning doesn't always indicate imbalance. Unless Terran maintains a persistent win-rate advantage for a really long period, it's really difficult draw conclusions. There is always a large chance that the results are due to coincidence, given the small time period being considered. Nobody really considers the amount of time it takes for the meta to shift, which is definitely quicker than before, but slow enough that Terran can take a couple of tournament without the need to panic. I hate when the OP card is being pulled out whenever someone wins a tournament, it has certainly been done too much to Protoss, but that doesn't justify people doing it toward Terran.
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Guys, defending the widow mine makes me laugh, a WM becomes cost efficient when it kills 2 banes, yet ppl think that when it kills 15 it's ok. I'm sorry guys but from a design perspective that's just hilarious (specially if you consider that it's a low skill unit, with a very low cost and a very fast tech path)
Btw 2 banes 100 minerals 50 gas 1 Widow mine 75 minerals 25 gas.
If you want to defend Terran, do it without comparing units, because if u start comparing numbers Terran is straight up a superior race. When comparing unit for unit it's not even funny.
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On September 22 2014 03:49 TokO wrote:
That's the point though, winning doesn't always indicate imbalance. Unless Terran maintains a persistent win-rate advantage for a really long period, it's really difficult draw conclusions. There is always a large chance that the results are due to coincidence, given the small time period being considered.
I do want to point out that this only holds true for WCS-format tournaments; in an open-bracket style tournament such as Dreamhack Moscow, a balanced game's winrates would be close to 50-50, yet we saw Terran dominating quite heavily. I still haven't seen enough post-patch TvZ to have a strong feeling towards whether or not Terran is too strong in the matchup, but it does look like it at the moment based on results alone. From what I've seen of TvP, it looks to be fairly balanced, maybe with a slight edge to T but the gap seems to be closing.
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On September 22 2014 03:49 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 03:03 TokO wrote:
I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. You mean the Rain-Zest-herO-HerO-San-sOs-Dear-Classic-MC-StarDust-Pigbaby period of Protoss domination, where any Terran build except Reaper FE -> 3 Rax struggled to get the necessary scouting information to react to the large variety of Protoss timing attacks / openings and still have the infrastructure to defend them? Terran didn't show a lack of innovation during this period, a lot of different mid-late game playstyles emerged (from Maru-esque 2 base in-your-face no-third-for-you constant aggression to Ty-esque I will drop you in 10 different locations to Polt-esque macro to three bases and start sniping Nexii while building PF's at home to defend the inevitable counterattack to Taeja-esque I will have perfect control and never lose an engagement ghost-viking styles), but the openings looked the same because there was only 1, potentially 2 openings that could consistently get Terran players into the midgame on even footing. edit: I don't think Protoss domination during this period was nearly as bad as the Bl-Infestor era was at the end of Wings, because I feel like Terran had the necessary tools to deal with everything Protoss could throw at them effectively, but Protoss definitely was dominate for along period and it wasn't due to a lack of Terran innovation.
Hmm, I was mostly thinking about before that string of victories for Protoss. People were already shouting OP long before that, I think due to their Proleague dominance. Terran did win quite a bit before the recent string of protoss victories. I wasn't aware that the early Rain-Zest-herO blink hell was that close to whatever the hell happened in WCS Season 2 in 2014. I feel like the two periods were quite distinct, maybe because I didn't watch too much in Spring.
I feel like most of the things you listed were simply good Terran play, which did net Terran a lot of wins. I guess there wasn't much room for innovations in openings. EDIT2: I guess what I meant is that they were slow to adapt to styles more suited against what they were facing. Terrans still play Reaper FE today, but it feels a lot more robust in terms of scouting and transitioning.
EDIT: When it comes to TvZ, people seem to have forgotten Snute's lategame Swarm Host style really quickly. I think we might well see Zerg get a resurgence if they are able to perfect that transition. Zerg has always had the slowest adaption rate and the most difficult adaption process of all the races.
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On September 22 2014 03:05 r691175002 wrote:
PS. How is it cherry picking to take a complete sample of all games played in a predetermined time period (Bl/Festor, Protoss)? The only stated purpose of the data was to conclusively prove that Protoss a higher win rate and longer period of domination when compared to BL/Festor.
a) That doesn't prove anything conclusively. If you look at the Ro4s, it's very rarely been a full PvP ro4, while it was quite often a ZvZ ro4 in BLinfest times and almost always a TvT ro4 in GomTvT era. You choose the data that fits the point you want to make.
b) Why do you want to make that point? Even if you could conclusively prove something like that, that doesn't change much about today's situation. You should be arguing that it's way too soon to talk about a terran imbalance today, because that's true, it is way too soon and there's no conclusive evidence for it.
c) A terran complaining about other races saying their players are superior is at best laughable.
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I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging.
I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal.
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On September 22 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
Hmm, I was mostly thinking about before that string of victories for Protoss. People were already shouting OP long before that, I think due to their Proleague dominance. Terran did win quite a bit before the recent string of protoss victories. I wasn't aware that the early Rain-Zest-herO blink hell was that close to whatever the hell happened in WCS Season 2 in 2014. I feel like the two periods were quite distinct, maybe because I didn't watch too much in Spring.
If you mean mid-late 2013 immediately following the mine nerf, I think at the time Terran was just starting to underperform in tournaments (outside of the beast that is Taeja) and people were starting to call Protoss OP, then we saw a string of Terran wins in proleague that kind of quelled the talks (almost the opposite of what you said).
On September 22 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:EDIT2: I guess what I meant is that they were slow to adapt to styles more suited against what they were facing. Terrans still play Reaper FE today, but it feels a lot more robust in terms of scouting and transitioning.
Refinement is very different from innovation.
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EPT
