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On September 22 2014 04:28 Pursuit_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
Hmm, I was mostly thinking about before that string of victories for Protoss. People were already shouting OP long before that, I think due to their Proleague dominance. Terran did win quite a bit before the recent string of protoss victories. I wasn't aware that the early Rain-Zest-herO blink hell was that close to whatever the hell happened in WCS Season 2 in 2014. I feel like the two periods were quite distinct, maybe because I didn't watch too much in Spring. If you mean mid-late 2013 immediately following the mine nerf, I think at the time Terran was just starting to underperform in tournaments (outside of the beast that is Taeja) and people were starting to call Protoss OP, then we saw a string of Terran wins in proleague that kind of quelled the talks (almost the opposite of what you said). Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:EDIT2: I guess what I meant is that they were slow to adapt to styles more suited against what they were facing. Terrans still play Reaper FE today, but it feels a lot more robust in terms of scouting and transitioning. Refinement is very different from innovation.
You are probably right about the Protoss whine, I'm probably biased due to being close to an emo terran who literally whined everytime a Protoss would win, and browsing reddit. Also, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always felt that Protoss success has been looked down upon (op race, ez a-move etc.) while Terran success is almost always attributed to skill and talent (godlike flash, taeja). This perception might have been coloured by the people I've interacted with.
I think refinement can be close to innovation when I understand innovation as problem-solving.
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On September 22 2014 04:43 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:28 Pursuit_ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 22 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:
Hmm, I was mostly thinking about before that string of victories for Protoss. People were already shouting OP long before that, I think due to their Proleague dominance. Terran did win quite a bit before the recent string of protoss victories. I wasn't aware that the early Rain-Zest-herO blink hell was that close to whatever the hell happened in WCS Season 2 in 2014. I feel like the two periods were quite distinct, maybe because I didn't watch too much in Spring. If you mean mid-late 2013 immediately following the mine nerf, I think at the time Terran was just starting to underperform in tournaments (outside of the beast that is Taeja) and people were starting to call Protoss OP, then we saw a string of Terran wins in proleague that kind of quelled the talks (almost the opposite of what you said). On September 22 2014 04:12 TokO wrote:EDIT2: I guess what I meant is that they were slow to adapt to styles more suited against what they were facing. Terrans still play Reaper FE today, but it feels a lot more robust in terms of scouting and transitioning. Refinement is very different from innovation. You are probably right about the Protoss whine, I'm probably biased due to being close to an emo terran who literally whined everytime a Protoss would win, and browsing reddit. Also, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always felt that Protoss success has been looked down upon (op race, ez a-move etc.) while Terran success is almost always attributed to skill and talent (godlike flash, taeja). This perception might have been coloured by the people I've interacted with. I think refinement can be close to innovation when I understand innovation as problem-solving.
I think for the most part you'd be right about Protoss being called 'easy / a-move' often when they win, but this happens because Protoss is the race with the most potent cheese / all-ins. When other races win on the back of cheeses / all-ins this happens to them too (MVP vs Squirtle 2012 GSl Season 2 comes to mind immediately). I think it also might have to do with how exciting the games are, harder to quantify but a lot of Protoss wins look like the Protoss was just sitting back defending then moved out once and won, games like sOs vs DRG from RBB yesterday don't get this kind of stigma about them.
edit: Obviously the above is just my opinion.
If you want to see an example of everyone saying how awesome / well-deserved a Protoss win was, look up IEM VIII Cologne LR's, everyone was saying it was an awesome / exciting finals with a well deserved winner despite the tournament happening smack in the middle of the period of Protoss domination.
edit2: Just looked up the LR myself, apparently it was just me that thought this 
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Nah, in spite of the warning, the thread was quite civil. I don't know how many posts were deleted, but the content of the post were in general very good. But it helps that LiquidHerO is a fan favourite + Team Liquid member + Underperforming ino general so people were happy for him.
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Northern Ireland25018 Posts
Cologne was good because Bo5s, many of which went 3-2 and could have went either way, plus deep runs from representatives of all races, among other things.
I feel people don't generally mind who the champion represents racially, but dislike things like 6 or 7 of the Ro8 coming from one race. At least with me it's really only the latter that causes me to lose interest after a while.
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On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote + I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal.
But is it really?
I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal.
Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG?
Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance?
Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA.
Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious.
In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising?
And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror.
That to me is a world returned to normal.
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On September 22 2014 07:00 TokO wrote:
Nah, in spite of the warning, the thread was quite civil. I don't know how many posts were deleted, but the content of the post were in general very good. But it helps that LiquidHerO is a fan favourite + Team Liquid member + Underperforming ino general so people were happy for him.
Yeah I didn't really take into account that HerO is a fan favorite, for me personally it was more about the quality of the games (very multitasking oriented games where action was occurring all the time and all over the map), the widow mine buff was the worst thing possible for TvP, after Blink was nerfed there should have been a nerf to Collosi play rather than HT play (if it was even necessary at that point). But that's outside of balance and into design.
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Guys, defending the widow mine makes me laugh, a WM becomes cost efficient when it kills 2 banes, yet ppl think that when it kills 15 it's ok. I'm sorry guys but from a design perspective that's just hilarious (specially if you consider that it's a low skill unit, with a very low cost and a very fast tech path)
Btw 2 banes 100 minerals 50 gas 1 Widow mine 75 minerals 25 gas.
If you want to defend Terran, do it without comparing units, because if u start comparing numbers Terran is straight up a superior race. When comparing unit for unit it's not even funny.
Guys, defending the baneling makes me laugh, a bane becomes cost efficient when it kills 2 marines, yet ppl think that when it kills 15 it's ok. I'm sorry guys but from a design perspective that's just hilarious (specially if you consider that it's a low skill unit, with a very low cost and a very fast tech path)
Btw 2 marines 100 minerals 1 baneling 75 minerals 25 gas.
If you want to defend Zerg, do it without comparing units, because if u start comparing numbers Zerg is straight up a superior race. When comparing unit for unit it's not even funny.
It could go both ways.
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isnt a baneling just 50 mins, 25 gas?
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On September 22 2014 09:22 Andwhy wrote:Show nested quote +Guys, defending the widow mine makes me laugh, a WM becomes cost efficient when it kills 2 banes, yet ppl think that when it kills 15 it's ok. I'm sorry guys but from a design perspective that's just hilarious (specially if you consider that it's a low skill unit, with a very low cost and a very fast tech path)
Btw 2 banes 100 minerals 50 gas 1 Widow mine 75 minerals 25 gas.
If you want to defend Terran, do it without comparing units, because if u start comparing numbers Terran is straight up a superior race. When comparing unit for unit it's not even funny. Guys, defending the baneling makes me laugh, a bane becomes cost efficient when it kills 2 marines, yet ppl think that when it kills 15 it's ok. I'm sorry guys but from a design perspective that's just hilarious (specially if you consider that it's a low skill unit, with a very low cost and a very fast tech path) Btw 2 marines 100 minerals 1 baneling 75 minerals 25 gas. If you want to defend Zerg, do it without comparing units, because if u start comparing numbers Zerg is straight up a superior race. When comparing unit for unit it's not even funny. It could go both ways.
Yes, the logic is similar, but banes do cost gas.
Also there is a difference between army split during engagement and pre splits. Splitting the banes when mine is activated is harder that marine splits, so only pre splits are reliable.
But thats not why i came here.
Zerg is weak right now, im not surprised but blizzard managed to overkill with yet another patch. Hellbats and a good map pool would have been enough, maybe together with the thor thing. That OR the widow mine nerf removal. Maybe just removing the nerf would be the way to go, since it was important to TvP. Incoming zerg buff in the next months, hopefully they don't go overboard and make a huge buff...
To be honest i don't care if it stays that way - zerg being the weak race - its not a huge inbalance anyway. Better than messing up with the meta and missing the point of balance again.
Its funny but protoss is the most balanced race right now.
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On September 22 2014 09:41 bypLy wrote:
isnt a baneling just 50 mins, 25 gas?
Yup. And they're melee, die on impact, do not *always* hit their target, are mostly useless out of creep, and when burrowed do not automatically fire at anything that comes in range, even if it gets out of range afterwards. They also do a *lot* less damage when they manage to hit.
But why try to argue with trolls?
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The funny thing is, 2 Banelings are 100 Mins and 50 Gas and 1 Supply, a WM is 75 Mins, 25 gas and 2 Supply. So even the widow mine is cheaper, it does effect the game only in the early and mid games. In the late game you can have for every widow mine 4 Banes with equal supply costs.
Banelings do not do friendly fire, something zergs allways forget. Your widow mines, triggered by a few lings, can blow up a large stack of marines and hit your medvacs hard, while zerglings just think about the green slime of their bros: "lol, this tickles" Oh and yeah, you cant upgrade the dmg of the WM. So it becomes weaker and weaker while the game continues.
Before the 2 Buffs occured, terran was allways behind, when the game transitioned into the late game. 10-15 dronekills had to be achieved by the terran to be not behind in the game.We saw games where the terran achieved 17 dronekills and still was in the eco behind.Nowadays terran is able to live with the disadvantages he allways gains in the early game even when playing greedy or super greedy, because the widow mine again helps him in the mid tier of the game.
I can accept the protoss talks about the WM much more then the Zerg talks. While it was a onetimer 40 splash unit before the whole nerf and buff story, it is now a onetimer 80 splash unit.
Edit: And yeah, all Zerg Pros tell the same story: WM Rebuff changed nothing, the Thor Buff changes everything. Mutaplay in large fights has changed drastic, while ling-bling play hasent changed at all.
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On September 22 2014 10:11 Clonester wrote:
The funny thing is, 2 Banelings are 100 Mins and 50 Gas and 1 Supply, a WM is 75 Mins, 25 gas and 2 Supply. So even the widow mine is cheaper, it does effect the game only in the early and mid games. In the late game you can have for every widow mine 4 Banes with equal supply costs.
Banelings do not do friendly fire, something zergs allways forget. Your widow mines, triggered by a few lings, can blow up a large stack of marines and hit your medvacs hard, while zerglings just think about the green slime of their bros: "lol, this tickles" Oh and yeah, you cant upgrade the dmg of the WM. So it becomes weaker and weaker while the game continues.
Before the 2 Buffs occured, terran was allways behind, when the game transitioned into the late game. 10-15 dronekills had to be achieved by the terran to be not behind in the game.We saw games where the terran achieved 17 dronekills and still was in the eco behind.Nowadays terran is able to live with the disadvantages he allways gains in the early game even when playing greedy or super greedy, because the widow mine again helps him in the mid tier of the game.
I can accept the protoss talks about the WM much more then the Zerg talks. While it was a onetimer 40 splash unit before the whole nerf and buff story, it is now a onetimer 80 splash unit.
Edit: And yeah, all Zerg Pros tell the same story: WM Rebuff changed nothing, the Thor Buff changes everything. Mutaplay in large fights has changed drastic, while ling-bling play hasent changed at all.
Bad baneling micro vs mines happen as often as bad marine micro vs banes, both sides are punished hard now.
Its ok to rebuff the mine since with proper play it doesn't make a big difference, but its true that mistakes (that happen quite often) punishes zerg harder. It does make a difference. But the problem is all things together.
The mine rebuff + thor change + hellbat change + balanced map pool.
Now banes and lings are worse, mutas are worse, zerg must open less greedy and must be prepared for a new timing attack. And the map pool is not zerg favoured anymore, with last season map pool the matchup would maybe be ok.
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On September 22 2014 10:11 Clonester wrote:
The funny thing is, 2 Banelings are 100 Mins and 50 Gas and 1 Supply, a WM is 75 Mins, 25 gas and 2 Supply. So even the widow mine is cheaper, it does effect the game only in the early and mid games. In the late game you can have for every widow mine 4 Banes with equal supply costs.
Banelings do not do friendly fire, something zergs allways forget. Your widow mines, triggered by a few lings, can blow up a large stack of marines and hit your medvacs hard, while zerglings just think about the green slime of their bros: "lol, this tickles" Oh and yeah, you cant upgrade the dmg of the WM. So it becomes weaker and weaker while the game continues.
Before the 2 Buffs occured, terran was allways behind, when the game transitioned into the late game. 10-15 dronekills had to be achieved by the terran to be not behind in the game.We saw games where the terran achieved 17 dronekills and still was in the eco behind.Nowadays terran is able to live with the disadvantages he allways gains in the early game even when playing greedy or super greedy, because the widow mine again helps him in the mid tier of the game.
I can accept the protoss talks about the WM much more then the Zerg talks. While it was a onetimer 40 splash unit before the whole nerf and buff story, it is now a onetimer 80 splash unit.
Edit: And yeah, all Zerg Pros tell the same story: WM Rebuff changed nothing, the Thor Buff changes everything. Mutaplay in large fights has changed drastic, while ling-bling play hasent changed at all.
you forgot about the fact that Widow mine does much more damage, and doesn't die upon 1 usage, ranged, immediate firing.
Seriously, if you think the WM is okay right now, you lose all credibility in my eyes.
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The biggest differences between widow mine and baneling in tvz are that you can micro in battle against baneling especially off creep, you cant micro out from a triggered mines in battle.
You also cannot pre split against widow mines and you are attacking into a pre defined set up positioning from terran and you are fully committing for every engagement.
I have to agree that zerg mechanics maybe is too influenced by the creep, it's "too" strong on creep and "too" weak off creep.
Thus this is why it is always the terran to be aggressive, always why if zerg fails to defend one push means losing a whole base and why zerg even after crushing a terran push, will have problem finish the terran off and relies on muta for critical damage
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On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal.
This is well put, and my thoughts as too.
It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning.
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On September 22 2014 11:03 parkufarku wrote:
Seriously, if you think the WM is okay right now, you lose all credibility in my eyes.
Okay.
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On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning.
Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda.
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Well I just finished viewing every TvZ from GSL round of 16.
Not a single zerg beat a terran that went bio mine.
soO vs Flash:
Game 1: Flash kills 20+ drones with early drop/banshee harrass and transitions into his weird mass hellbat/thor/bio play and loses never building a widow mine
Game 2: Standard macro with Flash displaying again his weird early thor/hellbat/bio play. soO was holding his own till he tried to take a large engagement off creep which he lost summarily and shortly after the game.. again no mines.
Game 3: Standard macro. Flash continues his thor/hellbat/bio play. soO only gets like 7 mutas and rest ling/bling.. wipes the floor with flash during first engagement and goes and wins the game. No mines built.
Soulkey vs Reality:
Game 1: Reality built 3 widow mines in game 1, burrowed them by themselves across the map, promptly got them sniped and then never built another one the rest of the game. Soulkey wins.
Game 2: Soulkey 1 base baneling busted for the match point.
Cure vs Solar
Game 1: Hell bat timing fails and solar wins with roach/baneling followup (no widow mines built)
Game 2: Cure kills third with hellbat timing, followup attack kills 4th solar GG's
Game 3: banshee + hellion harrass kill 38 drones and followup attack wins
Game 4: Standard macro, cure camps outside zerg 4th with bio mine.. zerg never gets a favorable engagement. GG.
Innovation vs DRG
Game 1: lolturtlemech
Game 2: Macro game taking place pretty much all at the zerg 4th base which eventually falls to bio mine and GG.
Game 3: DRG actually maintains 4th base till the 22 minute mark against standard bio mine but never has breathing room to tech to hive, 3/3 or get a 5th much less engage terran on his side of the map, GG
This is pretty small sample but its a sample of top 16 calibur players in GSL. What is painfully obvious is that everytime terran plays bio mine the same scenario seems to occur. Terran camps outside zerg 4th until it dies. Now I am not saying this means the widow mine is overpowered but when you look at the fact that terran was also winning games with hellbat timings and hellion/banshee harrass, zerg no longer has any freedom to gain and secure the economic lead they so desperately need to gain any momentum against bio mine play.
Zerg simply cannot trade cost efficiently against bio mine. They require the gas from the FOURTH base to stay on even footing with a terran on THREE bases. This in and of itself is not necessarily a problem as this was the nature of TvZ last year when the widow mine was still in it's current state but after it was nerfed blizzard in it's infinite wisdom saw it fit to buff terran in other ways before removing the nerf specifically to allow terran to SLOW the zerg economy in the early game.
Is there really anyone here that would have thought hellbat/thor change was warranted in 2013? Of course not... blizzard was looking at buffs for zerg to help deal with the widow mine and the overseer buff helped that alot.. terran buffs were not even on the radar.
I don't think the widow mine is the problem, but anyone that thinks TvZ is anything other than terran favored right now in standard bio mine play can't possibly be paying close attention to the delicate balance of this matchup over the past year.
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On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda.
I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life.
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I like all the changes to terran lately... but WM does seem a little too strong vs Zerg / zerg too weak vs T. Maybe require techlab on rax for wm or something.
When was the last time we saw a zerg win a top-tier tournament? I think in terms of overall performance they are underrepresented in tourney wins in Hots.
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EPT
