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On September 22 2014 16:07 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:26 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 15:18 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 15:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote:
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I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem. Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM. Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO. MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win. HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington. Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened) Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too. Well, if you think so. Then I'm going to use that argument from now on anytime Code S population pops up that Terran was properly represented this year, since their best players are abroad. Except you'd be lying to yourself if you did that and you know it. As good as Polt and Taeja are they're only about average in the GSL. Put them in any of the Ro16 groups we saw this season and I'd be hard pressed to say with certainty that they'd have advanced. And lastly can we finally agree that foreign zerg players are just better then foreign terrans too then? Or is that still 'Terran is harder to play' excuse? :')
Bunny man, Bunny.
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On September 22 2014 16:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
If you're asking me to explain Taeja then I can't help you. The guy confuses the hell out of me. I just naturally assume he'll win everything he competes in while at the same time never being surprised when he gets upset by someone random.
What I do know is that he has a winning record vs everyone on your list of players for Zerg and Protoss. Even Life. Who he is 25-12 in games and 11-3 in matches. I can explain it very simply to you. When he left Korea, he was the best Terran in the world. And he probably still is top3 up to this point. Similarily Bomber was one of the best Terrans in the world when he left Korea. However, the same is also true for MC and HyuN and HerO. And Life has been a top5 Zerg for most of the last 2years. StarDust and Jaedong were Kespa players so it's harder to evaluate them, though both of them have shown that they are regulars at the top of Premier Tournaments. That's why I believe that the skill difference cannot be that big between those players and in hindsight telling people that "of course HyuN didn't win that tournament, but Polt did", is just bullshit. + Show Spoiler +And to clarify, I actually believe that Bomber and Taeja would do very well in Code S. But I also think HyuN can have great runs, MC is always a threat and all the others could at least become regulars in the GSL. And well, Life is of course a regular in Code S and often has great runs.
MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. LiquidHero is also not a top 5 Protoss player over this year and last.
It's a fact that some top world Terran players like Taeja, Bomber, and Polt are playing frequently in International tournaments and should be dominating sub-par players. It's a fact that your top 5 Protoss players (Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero) haven't had many opportunities to play outside Korea due to their commitments to KESPA. If the game is balanced, MC, Stardust, and LiquidHero should not be dominating Taeja, Bomber, and Polt.
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On September 22 2014 15:54 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:49 RaFox17 wrote:On September 22 2014 15:41 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO There is a big skill gap here. Taeja, Bomber, Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran in the world sometime this year or last year (Bomber and Polt on the border of being a top 5 Terran while Taeja would consistently make top 3 this year and last year). MC, Stardust, HerO wouldn't make most people's top 5 list for Protoss this year or last year, assuming you mean LiquidHero. Even if you meant CJHero and not LiquidHero, MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. I would rank Classic just out of the top 5 world protoss players and neither MC nor Stardust are as good as Classic now. So yes, there is a big skill gap. What you are actually saying is that in your opinion there is a huge skill gap. Hyun just got out of wcs group by beating Taeja! theres more factual evidence for there not being a big skill gap between the players than was in your whole post. JD has been slumping badly this year but i would put Life at the same level as those terrans or maybe a bit lower than Taeja. All of those P players are also totally capable of beating any terran in the world. Again this is just an opinion and we can argue like this the whole year if we want to. You must admit that these T have been much more consistant this year, with 4 finals in premier event for Polt (with 1 win). 3 premiers events won + 1 final for Taeja and 2 premiers events for Bomber. These guys are wrecking left and right for forever.
Right, back to the same argument - Terran players are just better than everyone else. I guess all the Protoss players were better than everyone else only a few months ago.
The reason top Zegs appear inconsistent is because they can drop out of tournament at any point because of missing a scout. When you have to win 16+ games to win a tournament against top caliber players, chances are you'll miss a scout here and there and that's all it takes to drop out of a tournament and Zerg, because of race mechanics and non-linear unit production, seems especially vulnerable to this.
Protoss is almost the exact opposite. They have to rely on hidden gimmicks to get their wins.
Terran right now seems to have the most options. They have various openings and pressure builds all of which are fairly hard to scout in time and that require different defenses. It's funny how, whenever a race is too strong, they have the most options available to them. And not only that, but their standard play is also insanely strong.
Right now, from the games that I've watched over last couple of tournaments, every TvX is same - Terran starts exerting insane pressure after 9:00. Both Protoss and Zerg seem to struggle at this point and their only aim is to survive with minimal losses. And once they survive, the real game just begins.
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On September 22 2014 16:47 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:54 Faust852 wrote:On September 22 2014 15:49 RaFox17 wrote:On September 22 2014 15:41 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO There is a big skill gap here. Taeja, Bomber, Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran in the world sometime this year or last year (Bomber and Polt on the border of being a top 5 Terran while Taeja would consistently make top 3 this year and last year). MC, Stardust, HerO wouldn't make most people's top 5 list for Protoss this year or last year, assuming you mean LiquidHero. Even if you meant CJHero and not LiquidHero, MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. I would rank Classic just out of the top 5 world protoss players and neither MC nor Stardust are as good as Classic now. So yes, there is a big skill gap. What you are actually saying is that in your opinion there is a huge skill gap. Hyun just got out of wcs group by beating Taeja! theres more factual evidence for there not being a big skill gap between the players than was in your whole post. JD has been slumping badly this year but i would put Life at the same level as those terrans or maybe a bit lower than Taeja. All of those P players are also totally capable of beating any terran in the world. Again this is just an opinion and we can argue like this the whole year if we want to. You must admit that these T have been much more consistant this year, with 4 finals in premier event for Polt (with 1 win). 3 premiers events won + 1 final for Taeja and 2 premiers events for Bomber. These guys are wrecking left and right for forever. Right, back to the same argument - Terran players are just better than everyone else. I guess all the Protoss players were better than everyone else only a few months ago. The reason top Zegs appear inconsistent is because they can drop out of tournament at any point because of missing a scout. When you have to win 16+ games to win a tournament against top caliber players, chances are you'll miss a scout here and there and that's all it takes to drop out of a tournament and Zerg, because of race mechanics and non-linear unit production, seems especially vulnerable to this. Protoss is almost the exact opposite. They have to rely on hidden gimmicks to get their wins. Terran right now seems to have the most options. They have various openings and pressure builds all of which are fairly hard to scout in time and that require different defenses. It's funny how, whenever a race is too strong, they have the most options available to them. And not only that, but their standard play is also insanely strong. Right now, from the games that I've watched over last couple of tournaments, every TvX is same - Terran starts exerting insane pressure after 9:00. Both Protoss and Zerg seem to struggle at this point and their only aim is to survive with minimal losses. And once they survive, the real game just begins.
Where did I say that terrans are better ? It just happen that the Korean players that play out of korea are better, that's it. I'd put Zest, Parting or Rain above Polt or Bomber anyday. Bomber just follow his rule of being the best player in the world when you don't expect him to be.
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On September 22 2014 16:47 ReMinD_ wrote:
Right, back to the same argument - Terran players are just better than everyone else. I guess all the Protoss players were better than everyone else only a few months ago.
Taeja, Bomber, and Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran sometime this year or last year. MC, Stardust, and LiquidHero have not been a top 5 Protoss anytime this year or last year because your top 5 Protoss are Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero.
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On September 22 2014 16:42 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 16:07 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 15:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
If you're asking me to explain Taeja then I can't help you. The guy confuses the hell out of me. I just naturally assume he'll win everything he competes in while at the same time never being surprised when he gets upset by someone random.
What I do know is that he has a winning record vs everyone on your list of players for Zerg and Protoss. Even Life. Who he is 25-12 in games and 11-3 in matches. I can explain it very simply to you. When he left Korea, he was the best Terran in the world. And he probably still is top3 up to this point. Similarily Bomber was one of the best Terrans in the world when he left Korea. However, the same is also true for MC and HyuN and HerO. And Life has been a top5 Zerg for most of the last 2years. StarDust and Jaedong were Kespa players so it's harder to evaluate them, though both of them have shown that they are regulars at the top of Premier Tournaments. That's why I believe that the skill difference cannot be that big between those players and in hindsight telling people that "of course HyuN didn't win that tournament, but Polt did", is just bullshit. + Show Spoiler +And to clarify, I actually believe that Bomber and Taeja would do very well in Code S. But I also think HyuN can have great runs, MC is always a threat and all the others could at least become regulars in the GSL. And well, Life is of course a regular in Code S and often has great runs. MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. LiquidHero is also not a top 5 Protoss player over this year and last. It's a fact that some top world Terran players like Taeja, Bomber, and Polt are playing frequently in International tournaments and should be dominating sub-par players. It's a fact that your top 5 Protoss players (Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero) haven't had many opportunities to play outside Korea due to their commitments to KESPA. If the game is balanced, MC, Stardust, and LiquidHero should not be dominating Taeja, Bomber, and Polt.
I didn't mean to say that they are top5 currently. What I wanted to say was that similarily to Bomber/Taeja they were some of the best or arguably even the best (at the end of WoL in the case of MC) Zerg/Protoss when they left Korea.
I also don't think that Bomber is amongst the top5 Terrans currently.
But no, I don't think Taeja is much better than Life.
I don't think that Polt is to be favored over HyuN.
And I don't believe that Bomber will in a balanced game always beat Jaedong.
Sorry, you can argue a lot of stuff and I do believe that overall the Terrans are a tiny bit better than the Zergs here. But in a tournament with them all and an additional bunch of Code S players, I don't believe you can say "herpderp we expect Taeja to take this of course and all the others are just canonfodder."
But I believe my point is getting lost in those argumentations. So in short:
I do believe that in a weekend tournament a lot of stuff can happen. I do believe that some of the best Terrans are not in the GSL. But I also believe some of the best Zergs and Protoss aren't there either or in the case of Life, still regularily attending foreign tournaments. And mainly, I believe that the following argumentation is plainly twisting reality until it somehow fits Terran views:
"If we were to rank players it's like:
top GSL
rest of GSL and whichever Korean Terran is right now winning foreign tournaments
other Korean players abroad and top foreigners
rest of the foreigners"
Because that is what it comes down to. An arbitrary ranking that the best abroad Korean Terrans get to be in "some space in between where winning tournaments doesn't count towards balance arguments, because they are not the best of the world. But it's natural for them, because they are better than everyone else attending."
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This isn't an interesting conversation. There's no such thing as someone who deserves to beat someone else. Pigbaby just beat TaeJa again, was it expected? Probably not. Does that mean Taeja isn't a great terran? No, it doesn't. Does that mean that TaeJa deserved to win that? No, it doesn't mean that either.
Progamers just play the game, that's all. When you put two line-ups of great players against each other, you shouldn't just decide beforehand which line-up is supposed to have better results based on exterior factors like who you enjoy or who has the most merit. Everyone who ever won a competitive game deserved to win it, from Sniper to Puma to Tails.
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Yes, so many stupid arguments and reasonings put to the just so you have a reason to feel disadvantaged and complain about lost games.
That's all that you are doing. Looking for a reason to legitimize your complaints.
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bigJ, you're arguing against the grain here. Not only in this thread, but also when you look at power ranks and esports articles as a whole. I'm not saying that it's implausible what you're saying, but you need to contend with a lot more than what you are discussing currently. Taeja, for example, also has TL doing hype for him, and that does make people consider him to be better than Hyun or Jaedong.
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On September 22 2014 17:23 Big J wrote:
I do believe that some of the best Terrans are not in the GSL. But I also believe some of the best Zergs and Protoss aren't there either
The best Protoss are all in the GSL now: Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, Classic.
All 6 of these Protoss players are better than MC, Stardust, and LiquidHero.
Again, I will emphasize that MC, Stardust, and LiquidHero shouldn't be regularly dominating Taeja, Polt, and Bomber because Taeja, Polt, and Bomber have arguably been a top 5 Terran sometime in the last year or this year.
Also, don't forget Bomber won 2013 WCS Season 2 for a total of $40,000 and that tournament had Rain, Maru, Taeja, Innovation, Jaedong (when Jaedong was performing last year), and Polt.
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The players that do well in the GSL will not necessarily demonstrate superiority in foreign tournaments. Perhaps they depend on preparation; maybe their play styles are too unstable for the gauntlet of Bo3's you have in DreamHack; sensitivity to jetlag and facing foreign crowds could have an influence.
I don't want to read too much into the race difference, but I would suspect that the most "stable" race (which is related to balance but is not the same), with the most experienced representatives, will typically do better than a selection of GSL veterans that don't meet these conditions.
I expect Cure to do well in foreign tournaments since he does well on the Korean ladder and terran might be the best race in case you never want to lose to inferior opposition at the moment. I don't expect sOs to crush Red Bull since he is more dependent on preparation and his play style is riskier. Maybe that's a balance issue, maybe not?
This is partly about definitions / expectations. How seriously do you want an equal distribution of tournament winners per race? Is it acceptable that terran is currently better represented, even if there are secondary reasons outside of winrates at the top to explain their success? I don't know if Blizzard should micromanage the game to this level.
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On September 22 2014 19:31 Ghanburighan wrote:
bigJ, you're arguing against the grain here. Not only in this thread, but also when you look at power ranks and esports articles as a whole. I'm not saying that it's implausible what you're saying, but you need to contend with a lot more than what you are discussing currently. Taeja, for example, also has TL doing hype for him, and that does make people consider him to be better than Hyun or Jaedong.
I think the argument BigJ is making is perfectly justified in the context of this thread. It is a huge issue if we let bias in favour of Terran to influence the balance discussion. As long as there is a push for community input in the balance discussion, community perception is really important.
It's a big deal if Terran players are perceived to be 'inherently more talented', which causes the community to have a greater tolerance for success before pulling out the OP card, relative to the other races and Protoss especially. Personally, I would prefer if people showed high tolerance regardless of race, which I think the silent majority is capable of showing.
On September 22 2014 19:56 Grumbels wrote:This is partly about definitions / expectations. How seriously do you want an equal distribution of tournament winners per race? Is it acceptable that terran is currently better represented, even if there are secondary reasons outside of winrates at the top to explain their success? I don't know if Blizzard should micromanage the game to this level.
This is a really good point that needs to be said more. Equal win percentages and top-placements does not necessarily indicate balance. The current situation isn't bad at all. The game needs to be played a lot more over a greater variety of maps imo.
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On September 22 2014 13:44 Quigly4000 wrote:
Well I just finished viewing every TvZ from GSL round of 16.
Not a single zerg beat a terran that went bio mine.
...
I don't think the widow mine is the problem, but anyone that thinks TvZ is anything other than terran favored right now in standard bio mine play can't possibly be paying close attention to the delicate balance of this matchup over the past year.
I have made similar observations. The problem for me tho seems to be that bio+medivacs is way too cost efficient in all its tasks and uses: Snipe a nexus and fly out with zero losses. Load in and fly away when you are about to lose the units in a fight. Stim and be faster than almost anything else and therefore kill the left overs that try to retreat from the opponent in fights that you dominate. Concussive shells slow down units and prevents stuff from retreating additionally.
When ppl say the mine was figured out this is not an accurate observation. What was in fact dealt with better by the zergs in the end was the always exact same, repeating and uncreative parade push that terrans used to do these days. Zergs learned to hold it with doing only perfect engagements vs an almost constant flow of exclusively these few units.
Tank buff, thor buff and hellbat buff happened meanwhiles. This results in the parade pushes and general terran play can be varied, combined and transitioned into/out of more easily with the options: bio mine thors, bio mine tanks, bio mine hellbats.
Compositions of pure ling/bane/muta are imo inferior to these new terran combinations and the ability of terran to change and adapt these (thors vs muta heavy, tanks vs baneling heavy, hellbats vs ling heavy) and also mainly regulating the pace of the game to his wishes while zergs are forced to react and can only engage on creep and so on. This is why alot of roach semi-allin play, alot of all-ins in general and on the other hand stuff like mixing in hosts appears (zergs wanna dictate the pace to terrans once in a while). While the all-ins are strong vs terran, I feel like general roach/roach+hydra play (hyun style, semi-allinish) is about and has been basically figured out to the most extend. I think swarmhosts should be too as soon as terrans are all aware of this option and can scout and detect it early. The transition into a reasonable amount of hosts just make zergs too vulnerable for quite some time during the transition and later on too immobile once they managed to establish on the most maps.
Lets see how things develop further. I am quite convinced that terran is right now in a very good position in general.
p.s: maybe a thing to think about in future balance issues is to change (nerf) concussive shells on marauders, to just slightly make bio compositions less versatile and all-round. That would allow other races to get away from a fight that they are about to lose with a bit more units more likely etc. That would put a bit more accent on using mines/hellbats vs zealots etc., now as they are that good for this job. :p
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I would like Terran players to just realize that the reason why only Terran players have been consistent over the years is because their race have been given amazing tools in all fronts which is just not shared by the other races, they have amazing defensive units like the tank and WM, amazing offensive tools like the medivac helbat, then their macro mechanic (mules) gives them free stability, u loose a few workers np, just scan less, that's something that should never be an option, it creates artificial strengths that do not rely on skill and instead on circumstances.
This and much more creates in many the feeling of imbalance that so many describes. None of this factors make u win the game straight out but when you add it all together it creates stability and a framework from where a player can build their play-style .
A special note should be given to the planetary fortress which gives almost for free amazing defensive capabilities to a structure that should be fragile for the advantages it provides(resources).
All this adds to stability, it allows a great player like bomber to get to a tournament and just make builds that do not depend on is opponent allowing the player to dictate the pace of the game while the opponent is relegated into a defensive poster.
Bazik
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On September 22 2014 20:31 Bazik wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I would like Terran players to just realize that the reason why only Terran players have been consistent over the years is because their race have been given amazing tools in all fronts which is just not shared by the other races, they have amazing defensive units like the tank and WM, amazing offensive tools like the medivac helbat, then their macro mechanic (mules) gives them free stability, u loose a few workers np, just scan less, that's something that should never be an option, it creates artificial strengths that do not rely on skill and instead on circumstances.
This and much more creates in many the feeling of imbalance that so many describes. None of this factors make u win the game straight out but when you add it all together it creates stability and a framework from where a player can build their play-style .
A special note should be given to the planetary fortress which gives almost for free amazing defensive capabilities to a structure that should be fragile for the advantages it provides(resources).
All this adds to stability, it allows a great player like bomber to get to a tournament and just make builds that do not depend on is opponent allowing the player to dictate the pace of the game while the opponent is relegated into a defensive poster.
Bazik
Your post reads like "We feel Terran is OP because of Scan, PF, Macro, Mules, ..."
Imagine there is a race which could warp in units offensively and defensively. A race which has perma cloaked units and can boost out production with chronoboost in a couple of seconds.
Imagine there is a race which can build a unit which creates many small units for free. A race which has flying units that completely heal themselves in 1 min.
[Irony off] Can you now see that this way of arguing makes no sense?
Short story: The game is pretty much balanced and it's the players skill that is the deciding factor. Just look at Jeadong in the RB Battlegrounds. He did so many mistakes in his games vs Terrans, although he has the mechanics to beat the top players. Don't forget there are also factors such as decision making and luck involved on pro level.
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On September 22 2014 20:57 TurboMaN wrote:
Your post reads like "We feel Terran is OP because of Scan, PF, Macro, Mules, ..." That's because you want to read it that way.
On September 22 2014 20:57 TurboMaN wrote:[Irony off] Can you now see that this way of arguing makes no sense? He's not talking about the fact that different races have different mechanics, but about the number of options that terrans have while others have to rely on all-ins and/or gimmicks to get ahead (or just survive). That's not even related to balance but to game design.
But this is a discussion that could only happen between rational people. I can't see that happening here given the number of knee-jerk reactions from everywhere as soon as any criticism against "their" race is made.
On September 22 2014 20:57 TurboMaN wrote:
Short story: The game is pretty much balanced and it's the players skill that is the deciding factor.
Remember two months ago, when terrans were whining endlessly against protoss and protoss were saying that the game was pretty much balanced and it's the players skill that was the deciding factor? What was your analysis then?
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On September 22 2014 20:57 TurboMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 20:31 Bazik wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I would like Terran players to just realize that the reason why only Terran players have been consistent over the years is because their race have been given amazing tools in all fronts which is just not shared by the other races, they have amazing defensive units like the tank and WM, amazing offensive tools like the medivac helbat, then their macro mechanic (mules) gives them free stability, u loose a few workers np, just scan less, that's something that should never be an option, it creates artificial strengths that do not rely on skill and instead on circumstances.
This and much more creates in many the feeling of imbalance that so many describes. None of this factors make u win the game straight out but when you add it all together it creates stability and a framework from where a player can build their play-style .
A special note should be given to the planetary fortress which gives almost for free amazing defensive capabilities to a structure that should be fragile for the advantages it provides(resources).
All this adds to stability, it allows a great player like bomber to get to a tournament and just make builds that do not depend on is opponent allowing the player to dictate the pace of the game while the opponent is relegated into a defensive poster.
Bazik Your post reads like "We feel Terran is OP because of Scan, PF, Macro, Mules, ..." Imagine there is a race which could warp in units offensively and defensively. A race which has perma cloaked units and can boost out production with chronoboost in a couple of seconds. Imagine there is a race which can build a unit which creates many small units for free. A race which has flying units that completely heal themselves in 1 min. [Irony off] Can you now see that this way of arguing makes no sense? Short story: The game is pretty much balanced and it's the players skill that is the deciding factor. Just look at Jeadong in the RB Battlegrounds. He did so many mistakes in his games vs Terrans, although he has the mechanics to beat the top players. Don't forget there are also factors such as decision making and luck involved on pro level.
id go further and say decision making is involved at every level. not having the experience to know how a fight will go means you will lose games due to bad decisions with an army that can win the game
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Remember two months ago, when terrans were whining endlessly against protoss and protoss were saying that the game was pretty much balanced and it's the players skill that was the deciding factor? What was your analysis then?
It was just a month ago and I suspect it hasn't completely stopped, and please don't reopen that pointless debate on "what is balance".
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So many people in here that just flat out ignore arguments or important words because that is more convenient to them. Grow up guys, you're all just nay-saying!
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On September 22 2014 21:43 MstrJinbo wrote:
and please don't reopen that pointless debate on "what is balance".
Sure, discussing balance in the Designated Balance Discussion Thread would be stupid. Much easier to simply whine, ignore what others say when we don't like it, and cherry pick 'facts' and stats to simulate arguments.
Discussing is hard. Let's not do that.
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EPT
