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On September 22 2014 21:58 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 21:43 MstrJinbo wrote:
and please don't reopen that pointless debate on "what is balance". Sure, discussing balance in the Designated Balance Discussion Thread would be stupid. Much easier to simply whine, ignore what others say when we don't like it, and cherry pick 'facts' and stats to simulate arguments. Discussing is hard. Let's not do that.
The hypocrisy in that post is hilarious :-)
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Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own.
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On September 22 2014 21:58 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 21:43 MstrJinbo wrote:
and please don't reopen that pointless debate on "what is balance". Sure, discussing balance in the Designated Balance Discussion Thread would be stupid. Much easier to simply whine, ignore what others say when we don't like it, and cherry pick 'facts' and stats to simulate arguments. Discussing is hard. Let's not do that.
I don't think you understand what I said. Really by all means, discuss balance. Just leave the semantics out of it.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
I'm not sure how you are coming to this conclusion. HotS has been out for well over a year and there is no indication that the metagame is settling on defensive turtle styles. Even swarmhosts turtle zvp which everyone will argue is very strong, it's still nowhere near broodlord/infestor dominant.
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Northern Ireland25982 Posts
I don't think it's too terrible ATM, that said it's hard to really evaluate if the last patch affected TvZ too much.
You've got a different map pool, WM change and Thor change to contend with. In PvT the strength of mines and reduction in power of Blink timings over the last few months also has brought quite a few changes.
I'd be interested to see more analysis on playing styles, timings and options added/ removed from viability by patching from the Teoita's and Dwf's of the world in here than ceaseless debates on match win rates.
For example, my game knowledge is trash now after I have been PC-less for over a month, but from viewing games I've noticed some things. Terrans can play a bit greedier against weaker Blink timings, tailor their build to be safe against proxy oracles and enter the midgame more safely.
From there, with the near extinction of Templar first builds they can cut corners to hit big timings vs the near-certainty of Collosus plays. Protoss have adjusted their builds, foregoing extra gases at their thirds and sometimes cutting their double ups and switching to Templar later so they don't die to the triumphant march of 'the boys'. We're also starting to see Protoss being a bit more bold in the midgame by pushing out with Blink Stalkers and backstabbing with Warp Prisms to soft/contain and slow down their Terran opponents.
I might be totally off-base with my views on this, but I do think we're seeing a lot of back-and-forth refinement and tweaking things in subtle ways and am interested to see how it develops.
While the dearth of Templar openers sucks because stylistically I enjoy it I see TvP as being in a hell of a better spot than it has been in previous periods and it's not just the result of patching things out. For me there have been two phases of HoTS where the matchup has been pretty terrible, the resolution of which varied in each case.
Early HoTS:
Terrans ripped apart many a Protoss with their shiny speedivacs, Innovation dismantling Rain in an early MLG (I think) was one example. This seemed imba, but was fixed by experimentation. Protoss players started taking later thirds and teching harder. By spreading themselves out less thinly with this adjustment they left less space to defend vs medivac harassment and started to profit from this.
The 'Blink era'
Something of a nadir for TvPers, most of whom could hold these builds if they knew it was coming. The difficulty came from the options in the early game being varied on the Protoss end, and counter-pushes being hard to execute with photon overcharge being a powerful tool. I was of the opinion that Protoss had too many options and transitions, that blink allins in themselves weren't the particular issue. In this case we saw Blizz patching things rather than leaving it to settle. Map changed helped as well.
It's difficult to judge at the time what is 'imbalanced', and what is just waiting for a playerbase solution .
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Show nested quote +At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong. I'm not sure how you are coming to this conclusion. HotS has been out for well over a year and there is no indication that the metagame is settling on defensive turtle styles. Even swarmhosts turtle zvp which everyone will argue is very strong, it's still nowhere near broodlord/infestor dominant.
What he means to say is that after patches or after a new all in gets figured out, there's always a period where the aggressor has develloped said effective attack, while the defender needs time to learn how to deal with it.
That has been a recurring (and logical) pattern all throughout SC2.
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On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own.
No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now.
Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary...
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Northern Ireland25982 Posts
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes.
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And just like that, in the span of two weeks terran went from being the weakest race in this thread to the dominant one. So strange, its like people are having gut reactions from 2-3 tournaments.
And in debate, your gut matters more than your facts.
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On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary...
There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays:
Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game).
Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine.
In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still.
On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes.
After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors.
TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so.
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On September 22 2014 23:37 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary... There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays: Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game). Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine. In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still. Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors. TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so.
Yes, i felt the mine rebuff was premature. No, i don't think terran must be nerfed right now, way too early, lets not repeat mistakes o_O
But to be honest i would be ok with a widow mine unrebuff (since its more recent than hellbat change and the thor change is very reasonable)
edit: we must wait at least for a GSL season to jump into conclusions, i do expect that in the end zergs will claim "mutalingbane sucks" and will make it a big map only strategy...
edit2: sorry,i do think the mine rebuff was important to TvP (the matchup i understand the least), forget about my unrebuff claim, its adressing TvZ.
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I would consider it a warning sign if Zergs are forced into predominantly early game plays while win rates favour Terran.
The last time we saw a pattern like that was when Protoss simply gave up and all-inned every game against BL/Infestor. I don't think that kind of situation will solve itself over time as early game all-in strategies are at their strongest when first discovered, and get weaker as they are figured out.
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On September 22 2014 23:45 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary... There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays: Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game). Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine. In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still. On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors. TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so. Yes, i felt the mine rebuff was premature. No, i don't think terran must be nerfed right now, way too early, lets not repeat mistakes o_O But to be honest i would be ok with a widow mine unrebuff (since its more recent than hellbat change and the thor change is very reasonable)
The widow mine buff felt premature in TvZ but a change really was necessary in TvP. I don't know if the widow mine change was the best way to do it, but I think pulling that matchup back into line was going to have substantial consequences regardless of which unit got changed.
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On September 22 2014 23:45 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary... There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays: Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game). Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine. In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still. On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors. TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so. Yes, i felt the mine rebuff was premature. No, i don't think terran must be nerfed right now, way too early, lets not repeat mistakes o_O But to be honest i would be ok with a widow mine unrebuff (since its more recent than hellbat change and the thor change is very reasonable) edit: we must wait at least for a GSL season to jump into conclusions, i do expect that in the end zergs will claim "mutalingbane sucks" and will make it a big map only strategy...
Don't draw me into the mine discussion. I first want to see how Zerg develops over 3/4 months (Old ladder maps and end of tournament season are going to slow stuff down majorly T__T) and after that we can draw a conclusion. It's logical Zerg struggles a tiny bit now because their playstyle has to be altered to deal with new mines, which simply takes a little time.
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On September 22 2014 23:47 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:45 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 23:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary... There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays: Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game). Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine. In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still. On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors. TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so. Yes, i felt the mine rebuff was premature. No, i don't think terran must be nerfed right now, way too early, lets not repeat mistakes o_O But to be honest i would be ok with a widow mine unrebuff (since its more recent than hellbat change and the thor change is very reasonable) The widow mine buff felt premature in TvZ but a change really was necessary in TvP. I don't know if the widow mine change was the best way to do it, but I think pulling that matchup back into line was going to have substantial consequences regardless of which unit got changed.
Why no love for the siege tank T__T
Siege Tank with +Shields or +vs initial target would change sooooo much 
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On September 22 2014 23:51 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:47 r691175002 wrote:On September 22 2014 23:45 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 23:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary... There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays: Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game). Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine. In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still. On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors. TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so. Yes, i felt the mine rebuff was premature. No, i don't think terran must be nerfed right now, way too early, lets not repeat mistakes o_O But to be honest i would be ok with a widow mine unrebuff (since its more recent than hellbat change and the thor change is very reasonable) The widow mine buff felt premature in TvZ but a change really was necessary in TvP. I don't know if the widow mine change was the best way to do it, but I think pulling that matchup back into line was going to have substantial consequences regardless of which unit got changed. Why no love for the siege tank T__T Siege Tank with +Shields or +vs initial target would change sooooo much
Lol, too late to expect a buff in TvP eh, so it would be unrebuff mines and give tanks +shields  Just theorycraft, ofc its bad to change the game non-stop like this.
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On September 22 2014 23:55 Superbanana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:51 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 22 2014 23:47 r691175002 wrote:On September 22 2014 23:45 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 23:37 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 22 2014 23:28 Superbanana wrote:On September 22 2014 22:59 r691175002 wrote:
Just watching recent games, Terran does seem strong. Regardless, until we see a few seasons of Code S I think its far too early to suggest changes.
I don't think the widow mine will be changed before LoV. They have already reverted it - I don't expect that to happen again.
Frankly, the widow mine is an excellent addition to ZvT since it greatly raises the skillcap for Zerg. The best players can really differentiate themselves with micro, and I think we will see more of that as time goes on.
At this point I think we can say the aggressor always starts with an advantage, but as the metagame shifts the defender becomes much stronger. We saw this with both the BL/Infestor turtle, and the mcore. Timings by the aggressive race get solved over weeks or months, and in the end the defending race becomes insurmountably strong.
Knowing that this pattern has been reliable in the past, I think a period of Terran strength is expected, and indicates that the game will transition into a healthier state on its own. No, i think the meta will shift towards zerg being agressive early on, since holding the fourth after a less greedy opening against thor/mine is much harder now. So i suppose zerg will rely on doing damage before claiming fourth (zers are playing less reactive already). Just a guess but overall point taken. But i do think terran is favoured right now. Raising the skill gap is a good thing, but they should have reverted the mine nerf and after that consider hellbat/thor changes. On this map pool i think it would have been proven unnecessary... There's two possibilities we are already seeing pop up nowadays: Exhibit A: Scarlett at Redbull Grand Finals. She went for fast mutalisk (2 base) into some sort of very strong Baneling attack. She uses a fast lair to get mutalisk to harrass with and gets a fast Baneling speed to put massive pressure on the third. This cuts in the Terran army, delaying the attack on the Zergs fourth (Scarlett had relatively fast 3/3/AG/Ultra every game). Exhibit B: The Swarmhost style. While Mutalisk in large flocks seem to become a lot worse because of the Thor and the Mine, Swarmhost are very good against these two units. We might see Mutalisk Flocks shrink down to sizes like 10 (1-shots Mines; 2-shots Medivacs) as to allow for a much faster swarm host transition. The Mutalisk will be used mostly defensive again (Zergs have been getting REALLY aggressive with those) and using the Swarmhosts to hold Biomine. In both styles we see Mutalisk have a much less prominent role, Zerg are using the gas to secure tech faster so the 3/3 vs 2/2 window becomes less threatening. Lategame Zerg seems to be quite fine still. On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. After the Overseer buff things seemed be pretty good, with strong Zergs shutting biomine down HARD (Curious and Soulkey come to mind). the mine nerf came at a quite random moment afterwards, probably because of the outcry of certain forum warriors. TLDR All is not lost and Zerg is not doomed. L2P if you feel so. Yes, i felt the mine rebuff was premature. No, i don't think terran must be nerfed right now, way too early, lets not repeat mistakes o_O But to be honest i would be ok with a widow mine unrebuff (since its more recent than hellbat change and the thor change is very reasonable) The widow mine buff felt premature in TvZ but a change really was necessary in TvP. I don't know if the widow mine change was the best way to do it, but I think pulling that matchup back into line was going to have substantial consequences regardless of which unit got changed. Why no love for the siege tank T__T Siege Tank with +Shields or +vs initial target would change sooooo much Lol, too late to expect a buff in TvP eh, so it would be unrebuff mines and give tanks +shields Just theorycraft, ofc its bad to change the game non-stop like this.
I'm just sad Blizzard focusses on the Mine so much, whlst the idea is cool, in practice, the Mine is a very volatile, hit or miss unit.
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I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race.
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On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race.
What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way.
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I actually think zergs are going to hit lower representation then terran did in coming gsl's if there isn't some sort of buff.
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On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way.
That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race.
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EPT
