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That tank can never be a viable option - Blizzard has created too many units that are its direct counter.
Nearly every core Protoss unit was practically designed to counter tanks. Blink stalkers, chargelots, immportals, tempests... Making it viable in TvP is impossible without things just getting silly.
The new changes to Zerg also kind of end the tank. The Viper is about as direct of a counter as things get, and the muta change just seals the deal.
The one thing that really tweaks me about tanks is that David Kim has been promising to make mech viable for years now, but he designed every new HOTS unit to put another nail in the coffin. I don't know if he is full of shit, or just incompetent.
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I'm just sad Blizzard focusses on the Mine so much, whlst the idea is cool, in practice, the Mine is a very volatile, hit or miss unit.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Mine is removed in LotV. Blizzard will just say what they've said so many times before. "We found problems in the design...Could not balance it properly...So we decided to remove it".
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On September 23 2014 00:20 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way. That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race.
Bio Air affects only Zerg :p?
Those are really 'ugly' ways of balancing, as you run the risk of making units fulfill completely different roles in different matchups if you do that, like you aren't playing the same race.
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On September 23 2014 00:21 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm just sad Blizzard focusses on the Mine so much, whlst the idea is cool, in practice, the Mine is a very volatile, hit or miss unit.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Mine is removed in LotV.
I hope so :D
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Northern Ireland27294 Posts
I really have no issue with changes that affect particular races, as long as they actually improve variety and balance in said matchups
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On September 23 2014 00:21 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:20 TokO wrote:On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way. That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race. Bio Air affects only Zerg :p? Those are really 'ugly' ways of balancing, as you run the risk of making units fulfill completely different roles in different matchups if you do that, like you aren't playing the same race.
You got me, I didn't think about the spore crawler change. That is a really ugly change as well. However, it does have potential to affect terran, if they ever decided to make hellbats flying. They are, bats after all.
EDIT: Wombat, you wouldn't say that mine improves TvP variety though, would you?
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On September 23 2014 00:21 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:20 TokO wrote:On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way. That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race. Bio Air affects only Zerg :p? Those are really 'ugly' ways of balancing, as you run the risk of making units fulfill completely different roles in different matchups if you do that, like you aren't playing the same race.
Infestor neurals Phoenix's and picks up zealots.
Edit:
Not trying to be contradictory, but "technically speaking" the +bio damage is a zvp buff mathematically.
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On September 23 2014 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 23 2014 00:20 TokO wrote:On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way. That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race. Bio Air affects only Zerg :p? Those are really 'ugly' ways of balancing, as you run the risk of making units fulfill completely different roles in different matchups if you do that, like you aren't playing the same race. Infestor neurals Phoenix's and picks up zealots. Edit: Not trying to be contradictory, but "technically speaking" the +bio damage is a zvp buff mathematically.
On a ZP 2v2 team an overlord drops creep for spore crawlers, Phoenix picks up marine marauder. It might be thing someday 
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Northern Ireland27294 Posts
On September 23 2014 00:32 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 23 2014 00:20 TokO wrote:On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way. That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race. Bio Air affects only Zerg :p? Those are really 'ugly' ways of balancing, as you run the risk of making units fulfill completely different roles in different matchups if you do that, like you aren't playing the same race. You got me, I didn't think about the spore crawler change. That is a really ugly change as well. However, it does have potential to affect terran, if they ever decided to make hellbats flying. They are, bats after all. EDIT: Wombat, you wouldn't say that mine improves TvP variety though, would you?
No I don't see why it still has the +shield bonus after the reversion of the nerf. Was thinking more in terms of a hypothetical shield bonus tweak to tanks
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pfff... Zerg is going to be fine. Strategically in Korea nothing will change for macro games, only the winrates will be a bit different. Maybe some roach and baneling cheeses will increase in popularity, but they also were quite popular 1-2seasons ago, because they are strong regardless.
Everything else will stay as it was. Big muta ling/bling play, maybe the occasional ultralisk or infestor, the occasional roaches mixed in and then defend+counter until the Terran is mined out or bust. If Zest lets soO pass (which I don't think, but maybe he will) then we are going to have a Zerg champion this season.
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On September 23 2014 00:45 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2014 00:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:On September 23 2014 00:21 SC2Toastie wrote:On September 23 2014 00:20 TokO wrote:On September 23 2014 00:12 johnbongham wrote:On September 23 2014 00:06 TokO wrote:
I'm surprised not more people have issues with +shield damage. I thought Blizz once said that they didn't want to make balance that only affected one race. What are you talking about? The entire game is basically balanced this way. That's not true though, all other +dmg to attribute affects units of all three races. +dmg to shields is the only modifier that affects a single race. Bio Air affects only Zerg :p? Those are really 'ugly' ways of balancing, as you run the risk of making units fulfill completely different roles in different matchups if you do that, like you aren't playing the same race. Infestor neurals Phoenix's and picks up zealots. Edit: Not trying to be contradictory, but "technically speaking" the +bio damage is a zvp buff mathematically. On a ZP 2v2 team an overlord drops creep for spore crawlers, Phoenix picks up marine marauder. It might be thing someday
Phoenix Spore funday monday!
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On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes.
What do you think of the increased speed of many units?
Many people felt that WoL was already a bit faster than Brood War, and now HotS widens the gap even more. I don't mind it as a viewer, because you can get used to any game speed no matter how ridiculous (see ignite afterburners). I do wonder if the increased speed is one of the reasons you don't see tanks in TvZ as much, because tanks are so positional and slow-paced and can't survive in a world where all units can run circles around them.
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Zergs will start all inning more, fast mutalisk works as a surprise, it's very easy to make all that investment be completely denied.
The reason why it's not too early to patch the game in some way is that we've had the game in this state before and what we got was Terran winning nearly everything. Soulkey 9 out of 10 times got trashed by innovation in macro games, innovation just liked to cheese a bit too much back then, otherwise the win differential would be even larger than it already is.
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On September 23 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 23:30 Wombat_NI wrote:
On watching some classic WoL as well I'm remembering why I called HoTS 'Wings on speed'
Biomine is an even quicker and more relentless version of Marine/Tank, speedivacs require the current iteration of the Muta to keep in check etc. You're seeing huge numbers of banes rolling in partly because Mines for all their strength are a lot harder to reliably target-fire than tanks.
It's hard to be reasonable about the state of the matchup when it may seem one-dimensional at times, but there are very few players who can execute Bio-Mine parade pushes like Innovation and a select few can. As with the period before his relative decline I'd like to see Zergs being given some time to improve their engagements and whatnot.
The Mine nerf felt premature to me last time, even discounting DRG famously beating peak Innovation straight-up, there were few players outside of Inno and Flash in PL at the time who were as terrifying with the parade pushes. What do you think of the increased speed of many units? Many people felt that WoL was already a bit faster than Brood War, and now HotS widens the gap even more. I don't mind it as a viewer, because you can get used to any game speed no matter how ridiculous (see ignite afterburners). I do wonder if the increased speed is one of the reasons you don't see tanks in TvZ as much, because tanks are so positional and slow-paced and can't survive in a world where all units can run circles around them.
I hadn't thought about it, but now that you brought it up the idea is interesting.
Making the game faster was clearly a deliberate decision, and I suspect it is to compensate for the decreased mechanical requirements of SC2.
I think it might be fair to say that faster gameplay increases potential volatility in the outcome of games since many aspects of SC2 have very binary outcomes depending on reaction time. The effect of a widow mine, storm, fungal, and many other abilities provide only a split second to react or you will take enormous damage.
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Tanks are weak(er) because maps are larger, units are faster, Terran T3 sucks and there are even more hardcounters to Tanks in the game.
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On September 23 2014 01:07 Big J wrote:
pfff... Zerg is going to be fine. Strategically in Korea nothing will change for macro games, only the winrates will be a bit different. Maybe some roach and baneling cheeses will increase in popularity, but they also were quite popular 1-2seasons ago, because they are strong regardless.
Everything else will stay as it was. Big muta ling/bling play, maybe the occasional ultralisk or infestor, the occasional roaches mixed in and then defend+counter until the Terran is mined out or bust. If Zest lets soO pass (which I don't think, but maybe he will) then we are going to have a Zerg champion this season.
Did you see the state of zvt pre mine buff? It was arguably slightly terran favored post roach/bane all in. I don't see how it can be anything but terran favored with hellbats back and the thor buffed to counter the unit used to counter mines.
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On September 22 2014 13:44 Quigly4000 wrote:
Well I just finished viewing every TvZ from GSL round of 16.
Not a single zerg beat a terran that went bio mine.
An extremely alarming situation considering the sample size of 5 games (among which only 2 even macro games).
Cure vs Solar
Game 1: Hell bat timing fails and solar wins with roach/baneling followup (no widow mines built)
Game 2: Cure kills third with hellbat timing, followup attack kills 4th solar GG's
Game 3: banshee + hellion harrass kill 38 drones and followup attack wins
Game 4: Standard macro, cure camps outside zerg 4th with bio mine.. zerg never gets a favorable engagement. GG.
What an objective summary...
Game 2: the Hatchery loses 80% of its hit points to Reapers/Hellions, after which Hellbats finish it. Yep, on Nimbus you can't protect your third with only Queens against 3 Reapers + Hellions if you take the inbase natural (because of the choke + no creep down there). Solar would have never ran into this problem had he taken this base as his natural (DRG did it vs Bogus). Sorry if Terran is allowed to win against a Zerg losing his third and going 9'15 lair + 1/1.
Game 3: You somehow fail to mention that Solar opens 14/14 against a CC first opening, which means that his attempt at metagaming a Reaper opening or a 2 rax FAILED; CC first completes the expand before Speed is done, so Terran can lift behind his wall and is economically ahead from there. After that Solar doesn't sacrifice an over (despite the fact he has one in position) and is surprised by a Cloak Banshee, losing 10 drones in the process, up to 38 after a Hellion raid and Banshees coming back again. He then loses to Cure pushing. Exactly what is even remotely patch-related in that game?…
Game 4: "Standard" macro, haha… with Zerg losing 21 drones to Hellion raid + Mine drop (Solar had even scouted the 3OC 1-1-1 infrastructure, and from memory Cure had played the same build order against him in the Pughcraft Invitational!) AND forgetting/delaying bane speed (not expert in Zerg builds but considering Solar didn't have gas available for either Spire or bane speed when Lair completed I'm almost sure he messed up his gas timings) AND engaging 15 seconds before it completed. Notice Solar is on 88 drones (!) at this stage and could have actually held (despite all his early game blunders) had he waited bane speed. He started the Spire at 9'45 with 350/235 resources banked at this moment, so he could have started the bane speed at the same time but only started it at… 12 minutes. Is it the fault of the patch too?
Innovation vs DRG
Game 1: lolturtlemech
Game 2: Macro game taking place pretty much all at the zerg 4th base which eventually falls to bio mine and GG.
Game 3: DRG actually maintains 4th base till the 22 minute mark against standard bio mine but never has breathing room to tech to hive, 3/3 or get a 5th much less engage terran on his side of the map, GG
Game 1: lol I realized at 14'15 my opponent is meching and I don't replenish my lost drones, remaining on 60-70 when I need 85-90.
Game 2: No mention of the fact DRG flew his mutas (lost 7-8 in the process) over Bogus' army after he destroyed some of his economy, no mention of the fact Bogus never built a fourth. (Also DRG forgot +2 melee for the whole game.)
Game 3: Lol. At least get your facts straight. DRG lost because Bogus managed to whittle down his economy to 70 drones, then took a superb engagement on creep against DRG's mis-synchronized charge (banes and mutas sent too late after most of the lings had already been wiped, no flank into a concave). End of story.
What is painfully obvious is that everytime terran plays bio mine the same scenario seems to occur. Terran camps outside zerg 4th until it dies.
http://www.twitch.tv/pughydude/b/568130257?t=3h49m00s
http://www.twitch.tv/khaldor/b/570387510?t=2h10m00s
Any comments?
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Aww shit, thedwf and naruto are gonna comb through all these posts, I can hardly wait :D
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On September 23 2014 00:15 bo1b wrote:
I actually think zergs are going to hit lower representation then terran did in coming gsl's if there isn't some sort of buff.
On September 23 2014 01:23 sibs wrote:
The reason why it's not too early to patch the game in some way is that we've had the game in this state before and what we got was Terran winning nearly everything.
Please, if you are going to make ridiculous claims, at least try to provide some semblance of an argument to back it up.
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@TheDwf
Certainly that guy's example was a bit extreme (very small sample size and ridiculous claims).. but it does seem like Terran is getting the better end of the deal in TvZ right now. The maps are pretty tough and the mines are back to pre-patch AND the Hellbats haven't been reverted.
So surely, if the matchup was balanced pre wm nerf (which I think you've said) it's more favorable for Terran now, what with the Hellbat buff and better maps?
Thoughts?
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EPT
