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Zerg losing to terrans atm when terrans go bio mine is to be expected, it took players 6 months + a buff + bogus leaving stx for two zergs to beat his widowmine style. Given that hellbats are back, that thors now target air automatically, and that widowmines are back it's gonna take a good little bit of time before zerg starts winning again.
Just wait until bogus or taeja or someone figures out a 27 3cc build which incorporates thors and widowmines, and then zergs will really know pain.
Also this map pool is hilarious.
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Actually given that the 3cc parade pushing build incorporates a techlab fact to research drilling claws, a thor being produced from it isn't out of this world. hahaha gl soo
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On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal.
So we are going back to the oldest of arguments. Terrans are just better. Funnily enough this argument never seems to work with the other races.
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On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life.
Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5.
Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber).
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me.
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On September 22 2014 14:11 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. So we are going back to the oldest of arguments. Terrans are just better. Funnily enough this argument never seems to work with the other races.
While I disagree with bomber and mma being better then other protoss and zerg players who fly around the map, polt and taeja have surely proven by now to be probably the two best players who attend foreign tournaments regularly.
Like even in the height of protoss stupidity, they were still achieving results.
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On September 22 2014 14:21 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 14:11 RaFox17 wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. So we are going back to the oldest of arguments. Terrans are just better. Funnily enough this argument never seems to work with the other races. While I disagree with bomber and mma being better then other protoss and zerg players who fly around the map, polt and taeja have surely proven by now to be probably the two best players who attend foreign tournaments regularly. Like even in the height of protoss stupidity, they were still achieving results.
Not arguing against Taeja and Polt being bad-ass nerd slayers, but just hate the age old argument that when terran dominates it´s simply because they are better players and when other races do well it´s because IMBA. (not saying terran dominates at the moment but would not be surprised if that happens in the close future)
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On September 22 2014 14:11 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. So we are going back to the oldest of arguments. Terrans are just better. Funnily enough this argument never seems to work with the other races.
Let me ask you something.
Can you name even 5 Zergs that have enjoyed the kind of long term success guys like Polt, Taeja, Bomber or MMA have? At the levels that they have? Can you even name 5 Protoss players that have consistently been good despite changes to the metagame or balance patches over a period of years?
I can only name a few Zergs and Protosses that have managed to do it I can name at least 10 Terrans.
I'd be all aboard the Terran is overpowered train if it wasn't for the fact that it's really the same pack of guys winning everything that have been doing so since 2011.
When Protoss was winning everything earlier this year it wasn't the guys that we expected like Rain, Parting, Dear or even sOs, it was brand new blood that had just come up through the Code A qualifiers. Some like Zest have stuck around and have managed to surpass the stigma of being successful only due to the balance climate, others like Classic went the route of Seed and vanished back into relative obscurity.
The guys that can consistently beat the Terran big 4 are the Protoss and Zerg players that mostly do not travel outside of Korea. The guys that do, Hyun, Violet, HerO, Jaedong, Stardust, MC etc. have proven time and again that in a Bo5+ series they are just never as consistently good as these guys are.
It's no surprise that these 4 guys are conquering the foreign scene while at the same time we have a Protoss dominated KESPA cup and a balanced GSL. It's an uneven distribution of top players that are globetrotters and until that changes these guys will keep winning.
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On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me.
If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem.
Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM.
Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO.
MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win.
HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington.
Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened)
Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too.
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On September 22 2014 15:14 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem. Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM. Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO. MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win. HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington. Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened) Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too.
Well, if you think so. Then I'm going to use that argument from now on anytime Code S population pops up that Terran was properly represented this year, since their best players are abroad.
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On September 22 2014 15:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem. Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM. Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO. MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win. HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington. Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened) Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too. Well, if you think so. Then I'm going to use that argument from now on anytime Code S population pops up that Terran was properly represented this year, since their best players are abroad.
Except you'd be lying to yourself if you did that and you know it.
As good as Polt and Taeja are they're only about average in the GSL. Put them in any of the Ro16 groups we saw this season and I'd be hard pressed to say with certainty that they'd have advanced.
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On September 22 2014 15:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem. Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM. Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO. MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win. HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington. Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened) Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too. Well, if you think so. Then I'm going to use that argument from now on anytime Code S population pops up that Terran was properly represented this year, since their best players are abroad.
We are looking at a sample size of 9. Is it really that inconceivable that the terrans may just be better? Taeja, Bomber, and Polt did better than all of those other players (except Life and maybe Hyun) even when Terran was struggling at the end of WoL or during early 2014 when Blink and mass baneling reigned supreme.
Terrans not being properly represented because these guys are away is a perfectly valid argument. I would say top-tier terrans nowadays are Polt, Bomber, Taeja (all out of Korea), Innovation, Cure, Maru, and Flash. Most of the zergs/protosses on their level are all in Korea. It's just a problem when the Paralyzes of the world were making Ro16 in GSL when Terrans of a similar level (Reality, Skyhigh) couldn't get out of Code B.
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On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me.
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
There is a big skill gap here. Taeja, Bomber, Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran in the world sometime this year or last year (Bomber and Polt on the border of being a top 5 Terran while Taeja would consistently make top 3 this year and last year).
MC, Stardust, HerO wouldn't make most people's top 5 list for Protoss this year or last year, assuming you mean LiquidHero. Even if you meant CJHero and not LiquidHero, MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. I would rank Classic just out of the top 5 world protoss players and neither MC nor Stardust are as good as Classic now.
So yes, there is a big skill gap.
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On September 22 2014 11:03 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 10:11 Clonester wrote:
The funny thing is, 2 Banelings are 100 Mins and 50 Gas and 1 Supply, a WM is 75 Mins, 25 gas and 2 Supply. So even the widow mine is cheaper, it does effect the game only in the early and mid games. In the late game you can have for every widow mine 4 Banes with equal supply costs.
Banelings do not do friendly fire, something zergs allways forget. Your widow mines, triggered by a few lings, can blow up a large stack of marines and hit your medvacs hard, while zerglings just think about the green slime of their bros: "lol, this tickles" Oh and yeah, you cant upgrade the dmg of the WM. So it becomes weaker and weaker while the game continues.
Before the 2 Buffs occured, terran was allways behind, when the game transitioned into the late game. 10-15 dronekills had to be achieved by the terran to be not behind in the game.We saw games where the terran achieved 17 dronekills and still was in the eco behind.Nowadays terran is able to live with the disadvantages he allways gains in the early game even when playing greedy or super greedy, because the widow mine again helps him in the mid tier of the game.
I can accept the protoss talks about the WM much more then the Zerg talks. While it was a onetimer 40 splash unit before the whole nerf and buff story, it is now a onetimer 80 splash unit.
Edit: And yeah, all Zerg Pros tell the same story: WM Rebuff changed nothing, the Thor Buff changes everything. Mutaplay in large fights has changed drastic, while ling-bling play hasent changed at all. you forgot about the fact that Widow mine does much more damage, and doesn't die upon 1 usage, ranged, immediate firing. Seriously, if you think the WM is okay right now, you lose all credibility in my eyes.
You lost your credibility for ages already so it doesn't really matter if you accord your credit to anyone.
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On September 22 2014 15:41 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO There is a big skill gap here. Taeja, Bomber, Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran in the world sometime this year or last year (Bomber and Polt on the border of being a top 5 Terran while Taeja would consistently make top 3 this year and last year). MC, Stardust, HerO wouldn't make most people's top 5 list for Protoss this year or last year, assuming you mean LiquidHero. Even if you meant CJHero and not LiquidHero, MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. I would rank Classic just out of the top 5 world protoss players and neither MC nor Stardust are as good as Classic now. So yes, there is a big skill gap.
What you are actually saying is that in your opinion there is a huge skill gap. Hyun just got out of wcs group by beating Taeja! theres more factual evidence for there not being a big skill gap between the players than was in your whole post. JD has been slumping badly this year but i would put Life at the same level as those terrans or maybe a bit lower than Taeja. All of those P players are also totally capable of beating any terran in the world. Again this is just an opinion and we can argue like this the whole year if we want to.
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On September 22 2014 15:49 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:41 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO There is a big skill gap here. Taeja, Bomber, Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran in the world sometime this year or last year (Bomber and Polt on the border of being a top 5 Terran while Taeja would consistently make top 3 this year and last year). MC, Stardust, HerO wouldn't make most people's top 5 list for Protoss this year or last year, assuming you mean LiquidHero. Even if you meant CJHero and not LiquidHero, MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. I would rank Classic just out of the top 5 world protoss players and neither MC nor Stardust are as good as Classic now. So yes, there is a big skill gap. What you are actually saying is that in your opinion there is a huge skill gap. Hyun just got out of wcs group by beating Taeja! theres more factual evidence for there not being a big skill gap between the players than was in your whole post. JD has been slumping badly this year but i would put Life at the same level as those terrans or maybe a bit lower than Taeja. All of those P players are also totally capable of beating any terran in the world. Again this is just an opinion and we can argue like this the whole year if we want to.
You must admit that these T have been much more consistant this year, with 4 finals in premier event for Polt (with 1 win). 3 premiers events won + 1 final for Taeja and 2 premiers events for Bomber. These guys are wrecking left and right for forever.
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On September 22 2014 15:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:18 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 15:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem. Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM. Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO. MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win. HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington. Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened) Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too. Well, if you think so. Then I'm going to use that argument from now on anytime Code S population pops up that Terran was properly represented this year, since their best players are abroad. Except you'd be lying to yourself if you did that and you know it. As good as Polt and Taeja are they're only about average in the GSL. Put them in any of the Ro16 groups we saw this season and I'd be hard pressed to say with certainty that they'd have advanced.
Funny, when Bomber wins a tournament with players like Cure, Parting, Trap, DRG, sOs in it, it's because he is so awesome. (and obviously, Scarlett couldn't win that tournament, since she isn't that awesome)
When he'd go to play GSL, he'd probably not make it so far, because all the Code S players are so awesome.
When HyuN and Jaedong can't win weekend tournaments it's because they are not awesome enough. But when Taeja wins a tournament stacked with fucking Zest (who he ezpz'd 3-0), Solar, Innovation, Life, TRUE, Stork amongst our regular non Terran scrubs (Snute, San, Jaedong) - that are strong enough to make it out of groups with Code S players in them, but hey, not to beat Taeja right? - it's because he is so fucking awesome. But surely, when it's going to be about Code S, he'll just not make it thaaaat far, because I mean... there is players that are even better than Zest like... ahm... well... you know... those players... right?!
Somewhere I'm missing the consistency in your arguments.
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On September 22 2014 15:49 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:41 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:
And if we make these lists:
Life, Jaedong, HyuN
Taeja, Bomber, Polt
MC, Stardust, HerO
that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO There is a big skill gap here. Taeja, Bomber, Polt have arguably been a top 5 Terran in the world sometime this year or last year (Bomber and Polt on the border of being a top 5 Terran while Taeja would consistently make top 3 this year and last year). MC, Stardust, HerO wouldn't make most people's top 5 list for Protoss this year or last year, assuming you mean LiquidHero. Even if you meant CJHero and not LiquidHero, MC and Stardust are not a top 5 world protoss when you have Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero, as your top 5 world Protoss players. I would rank Classic just out of the top 5 world protoss players and neither MC nor Stardust are as good as Classic now. So yes, there is a big skill gap. What you are actually saying is that in your opinion there is a huge skill gap. Hyun just got out of wcs group by beating Taeja! theres more factual evidence for there not being a big skill gap between the players than was in your whole post. JD has been slumping badly this year but i would put Life at the same level as those terrans or maybe a bit lower than Taeja. All of those P players are also totally capable of beating any terran in the world. Again this is just an opinion and we can argue like this the whole year if we want to.
In a balanced game, MC and Stardust should not be regularly beating Taeja since neither MC nor Stardust are top 5 Protoss players (I just listed 6 Protoss players better than MC and Stardust). The fact that MC and Stardust could regularly beat Taeja during the height of Protoss being OP is a sign the game was unbalanced.
If you disagree with me, you are saying that MC or Stardust are better than Rain, Zest, PartinG, sOs, CJHero.
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If you're asking me to explain Taeja then I can't help you. The guy confuses the hell out of me. I just naturally assume he'll win everything he competes in while at the same time never being surprised when he gets upset by someone random.
What I do know is that he has a winning record vs everyone on your list of players for Zerg and Protoss. Even Life. Who he is 25-12 in games and 11-3 in matches.
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On September 22 2014 15:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
If you're asking me to explain Taeja then I can't help you. The guy confuses the hell out of me. I just naturally assume he'll win everything he competes in while at the same time never being surprised when he gets upset by someone random.
What I do know is that he has a winning record vs everyone on your list of players for Zerg and Protoss. Even Life. Who he is 25-12 in games and 11-3 in matches.
I can explain it very simply to you. When he left Korea, he was the best Terran in the world. And he probably still is top3 up to this point.
Similarily Bomber was one of the best Terrans in the world when he left Korea.
However, the same is also true for MC and HyuN and HerO. And Life has been a top5 Zerg for most of the last 2years. StarDust and Jaedong were Kespa players so it's harder to evaluate them, though both of them have shown that they are regulars at the top of Premier Tournaments.
That's why I believe that the skill difference cannot be that big between those players and in hindsight telling people that "of course HyuN didn't win that tournament, but Polt did", is just bullshit.
+ Show Spoiler +And to clarify, I actually believe that Bomber and Taeja would do very well in Code S. But I also think HyuN can have great runs, MC is always a threat and all the others could at least become regulars in the GSL. And well, Life is of course a regular in Code S and often has great runs.
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On September 22 2014 15:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2014 15:18 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 15:14 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 14:21 Big J wrote:On September 22 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 13:36 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:On September 22 2014 12:47 MrMotionPicture wrote:On September 22 2014 07:20 Vindicare605 wrote:On September 22 2014 04:16 ZenithM wrote: I think that the Rain-Zest-herO dominance period of mid-HotS are quite unfair to use as an argument for Toss OP (with the exception of Blink all-ins), as Terran did show a lack of innovation in the face of Protoss talent emerging. I'm disappointed that we Terran players don't have the balls to say shit like this, we make the mistake of being honest. Yeah Terran is a little strong atm, big fucking deal. But is it really? I don't know what everyone else is seeing but what I've been seeing over the last couple weeks has seemed like a world returned to normal. Guys like Polt and Bomber are not supposed to lose to Scarlett or Snute. Cure is a GSL Semi-finalist is it any surprise that he defeated Trap in the Ro4 3-0 in RBBG? Bomber went on a rampage and stomped on everyone of every race at RBBG Washington only dropping 2 maps in the entire tournament to Polt. Is that any indication of imbalance? Think of the guys that show up to every tournament. For Zerg we have Jaedong, Snute, Violet and Hyun. For Protoss we have MC, San, Stardust and HerO, for Terran we have Polt, Taeja, Bomber and MMA. Which of those has the strongest Big 4? The answer should be obvious. In the regions outside Korea, these 4 guys have just been stomping everything because they're no longer playing in a game where they are massively disadvantaged by the current scope of balance. Considering that more often than not they are playing against the big 4 of the other races; are their winning results really that surprising? And then at the same time in Korea we just had the KESPA cup which was MASSIVELY Protoss dominated, and the GSL which has managed to maintain a perfect racial balance throughout the entire course of the tournament and where the finals are guaranteed to be a non-mirror. That to me is a world returned to normal. This is well put, and my thoughts as too. It's the same people doing well in the tournaments, so it shouldn't be a surprise that "a lot of Terrans" are winning. Polt, Bomber, and Taeja stomped their opponents even when Terran was struggling, and outperformed the rest of the "Big 4" for each race even then. MMA I dont' know if I would include, I think he's on a tier below with Jjakji and Yoda. I included MMA because of his globetrotting not because of his quality as a player, the same reason Snute is included in the list of Zergs over guys like Life. Thing is, MMA has only been to 4 non-WCS events this year (same as Violet) which is not all that much - e.g. sOs, TRUE did 3, Oz did 5. Life has been to 6 (only 1 less than Bomber). And if we make these lists: Life, Jaedong, HyuN Taeja, Bomber, Polt MC, Stardust, HerO that doesn't sound like there is a skillgap to me. If that doesn't look like an obvious skill gap to you then there's a problem. Jaedong has been in a MASSIVE slump all year, he's only managed to break out of the Ro32 once in WCS AM. Hyun's TvZ is inconsistent, at times he looks impressive and dominant and other times he gets routed by Bunny 4-2. He's also one dimensional heavily reliant on Roach timings which is a big reason why his success has dropped off lately, he's become very figured out IMO. MC hasn't been tip top level in a long time. He's consistently good enough to place in foreign tournaments like Jaedong is, but never in a position where he's favored to win. HerO has been in a massive slump just like Jaedong has, only he actually caught fire at IEM Cologne in much the same way Bomber did at RBBG Washington. Life is the only outlier. The only guy of the Zergs and Protosses that I would say is as good or better than Taeja or Polt, but he's also frustratingly inconsistent and I say that as a fan of his. He's good enough to be at the top of the world and hand's down the best, and then he also does shit like lose to Sjow in a Bo3 or move command his Broodlords under Fantasy's Marines in proleague (I still can't believe that happened) Face it. There is a skill gap. It's quite noticeable too. Well, if you think so. Then I'm going to use that argument from now on anytime Code S population pops up that Terran was properly represented this year, since their best players are abroad. Except you'd be lying to yourself if you did that and you know it. As good as Polt and Taeja are they're only about average in the GSL. Put them in any of the Ro16 groups we saw this season and I'd be hard pressed to say with certainty that they'd have advanced.
He's not lying, maybe Maru and Inno are better then them, but I'm not sure about the other Terrans.
And I can also use as argument that Terran players are more consistent because their race requires the most 'standard' play out of the 3 races.
Anyway yes the traveling terran players are very consistent this year, that's why it blows my mind that Terrans kept whining even though the winrates were that bad and they won more tournaments then Zerg.
The last widow mine buff just completely ruins ZvT, and soon we will see all Zergs just allin vs equally skilled Terran opponents.
And lastly can we finally agree that foreign zerg players are just better then foreign terrans too then?
Or is that still 'Terran is harder to play' excuse? :')
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EPT
