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On August 14 2011 09:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:40 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. \ Again you are assuming that SC2Con is telling the truth, and plus even if they are, still doesn't change the fact that the teams played the qualifiers, signed contracts to play in season 2, THEN made their demands known and then 15 days after the (yes I'm gonna keep saying it like a broken record) CONTRACTS were signed decided to pull out. Thats the crux of the whole argument for alot of people so wait, first you say "you assume x is telling the thruth". Then your counter is blindly copying what the other side saids. Don't you think that is very hypocritical thinking here?
I don't believe the fact that the Korean teams signed contracts and subsequently pulled out is a point of contention.
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No its not cause SC2Con has shown recently that they don't do things exactly on the up and up as shown by the Coach Lee/FD/Tester fiasco and NASL has yet to give us a reason to to doubt them.
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On August 14 2011 09:49 HCastorp wrote:
This situation is confusing as an esports fan. I want to support the NASL. I also want to support players trying to play in the best conditions, and having a viable career. The demands of the korean teams strike me as reasonable. But the way they broke their contracts is a really lame tactic, and it bothers me that there is really no way for them to be punished.
Ultimately, I think the part of this that hurts esports the most is the ignorance of already signed contracts. I feel like it is important to support NASL here, despite the problems with them as an organization.
The above is why your posts make me sad, Effen. I think it is reasonable to ask for a refund, but I also feel that doing so is in some way supporting the position of the korean teams, which, essentially, is that they are so important that no one would dare displease them.
I never posted anything about supporting either side of the argument. All I said was I paid the $25 because of the promise to see the Koreans play. Now, I can't. So I'm asking for a refund. I'm not taking sides.
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On August 14 2011 09:51 Effen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:49 HCastorp wrote:
This situation is confusing as an esports fan. I want to support the NASL. I also want to support players trying to play in the best conditions, and having a viable career. The demands of the korean teams strike me as reasonable. But the way they broke their contracts is a really lame tactic, and it bothers me that there is really no way for them to be punished.
Ultimately, I think the part of this that hurts esports the most is the ignorance of already signed contracts. I feel like it is important to support NASL here, despite the problems with them as an organization.
The above is why your posts make me sad, Effen. I think it is reasonable to ask for a refund, but I also feel that doing so is in some way supporting the position of the korean teams, which, essentially, is that they are so important that no one would dare displease them. I never posted anything about supporting either side of the argument. All I said was I paid the $25 because of the promise to see the Koreans play. Now, I can't. So I'm asking for a refund. I'm not taking sides.
Again, this isn't the place for that. Take it to the NASL site and forums.
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On August 14 2011 09:51 Effen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:49 HCastorp wrote:
This situation is confusing as an esports fan. I want to support the NASL. I also want to support players trying to play in the best conditions, and having a viable career. The demands of the korean teams strike me as reasonable. But the way they broke their contracts is a really lame tactic, and it bothers me that there is really no way for them to be punished.
Ultimately, I think the part of this that hurts esports the most is the ignorance of already signed contracts. I feel like it is important to support NASL here, despite the problems with them as an organization.
The above is why your posts make me sad, Effen. I think it is reasonable to ask for a refund, but I also feel that doing so is in some way supporting the position of the korean teams, which, essentially, is that they are so important that no one would dare displease them. I never posted anything about supporting either side of the argument. All I said was I paid the $25 because of the promise to see the Koreans play. Now, I can't. So I'm asking for a refund. I'm not taking sides.
I would be inclined to agree that a refund should be offered if only to show a dedication to customer satisfaction on the part of the NASL. Obviously this is an unfavorable situation and one that really could not have been foreseen, but I think the reality is that a lot of people who paid are going to be getting a product very different from the one they were expecting at the time of purchase and the NASL should let the consumers decide whether or not they still feel it's worth the $25 for a season ticket despite these changes.
On August 14 2011 09:53 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:51 Effen wrote:On August 14 2011 09:49 HCastorp wrote:
This situation is confusing as an esports fan. I want to support the NASL. I also want to support players trying to play in the best conditions, and having a viable career. The demands of the korean teams strike me as reasonable. But the way they broke their contracts is a really lame tactic, and it bothers me that there is really no way for them to be punished.
Ultimately, I think the part of this that hurts esports the most is the ignorance of already signed contracts. I feel like it is important to support NASL here, despite the problems with them as an organization.
The above is why your posts make me sad, Effen. I think it is reasonable to ask for a refund, but I also feel that doing so is in some way supporting the position of the korean teams, which, essentially, is that they are so important that no one would dare displease them. I never posted anything about supporting either side of the argument. All I said was I paid the $25 because of the promise to see the Koreans play. Now, I can't. So I'm asking for a refund. I'm not taking sides. Again, this isn't the place for that. Take it to the NASL site and forums.
o.O What NASL forums?
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On August 14 2011 09:56 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:51 Effen wrote:On August 14 2011 09:49 HCastorp wrote:
This situation is confusing as an esports fan. I want to support the NASL. I also want to support players trying to play in the best conditions, and having a viable career. The demands of the korean teams strike me as reasonable. But the way they broke their contracts is a really lame tactic, and it bothers me that there is really no way for them to be punished.
Ultimately, I think the part of this that hurts esports the most is the ignorance of already signed contracts. I feel like it is important to support NASL here, despite the problems with them as an organization.
The above is why your posts make me sad, Effen. I think it is reasonable to ask for a refund, but I also feel that doing so is in some way supporting the position of the korean teams, which, essentially, is that they are so important that no one would dare displease them. I never posted anything about supporting either side of the argument. All I said was I paid the $25 because of the promise to see the Koreans play. Now, I can't. So I'm asking for a refund. I'm not taking sides. I would be inclined to agree that a refund should be offered if only to show a dedication to customer satisfaction on the part of the NASL. Obviously this is an unfavorable situation and one that really could not have been foreseen, but I think the reality is that a lot of people who paid are going to be getting a product very different from the one they were expecting at the time of purchase and the NASL should let the consumers decide whether or not they still feel it's worth the $25 for a season ticket despite these changes.
I don't disagree. I just wanted to post a perspective on why, even though I think one would be perfectly within their rights to ask for one, I personally would not.
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On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization.
I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.)
Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement.
Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content.
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I guess I'm one of the few people who is excited to see more North Americans.
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On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content.
Can you imagine the shitstorm NASL would have found itself in if they had just released a statement saying, (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Sorry, things with the Koreans didn't work out, not gonna tell you why, just that all these Koreans won't be in season 2, kthxbye'
Not only that, for the people who payed for season 2 pass, I think its reasonable for them to expect an explanation as they are a paying customer.
And I don't agree with the whole "trying to paint themselves as good guys and SC2Con as the bad guys"
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On August 14 2011 10:10 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content. Can you imagine the shitstorm NASL would have found itself in if they had just released a statement saying, (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Sorry, things with the Koreans didn't work out, not gonna tell you why, just that all these Koreans won't be in season 2, kthxbye' And I don't agree with the whole "trying to paint themselves as good guys and SC2Con as the bad guys"
I think a "after several weeks of negotiations with Korea teams, we were unable to come to a solution that would be suitable for both sides. We are extremely sad that so many great players will not be a part of season 2 and hope they will be able to participate in future tournaments. To our fans and customers, we are incredibly sorry for the delay in production this has caused, etc. etc." And taking care of matters (in terms of recuperating costs for the Korean teams violating the contract) behind doors would have been fine.
Sure, there would have been a shitstorm on TL, but sometimes you just have to say, we will not be disclosing specifics about a business negotiation. And take it from the critics who simply can't accept that.
And yes, I agree. I think this was more an attempt at damage control for NASL rather than specifically trying to make others out to be the bad guys.
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On August 14 2011 10:20 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:10 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content. Can you imagine the shitstorm NASL would have found itself in if they had just released a statement saying, (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Sorry, things with the Koreans didn't work out, not gonna tell you why, just that all these Koreans won't be in season 2, kthxbye' And I don't agree with the whole "trying to paint themselves as good guys and SC2Con as the bad guys" I think a "after several weeks of negotiations with Korea teams, we were unable to come to a solution that would be suitable for both sides. We are extremely sad that so many great players will not be a part of season 2 and hope they will be able to participate in future tournaments. To our fans and customers, we are incredibly sorry for the delay in production this has caused, etc. etc." And taking care of matters (in terms of recuperating costs for the Korean teams violating the contract) behind doors would have been fine. Sure, there would have been a shitstorm on TL, but sometimes you just have to say, we will not be disclosing specifics about a business negotiation. And take it from the critics who simply can't accept that. And yes, I agree. I think this was more an attempt at damage control for NASL rather than specifically trying to make others out to be the bad guys.
If NASL had the prestige of say MLG or Dreamhack, then yes I'd agree that would have been the best way. But at this point of NASL's fledgling existence they haven't built up that credibility yet with the fans. So being transparent like this with the fans is, at least IMO, the best way to go.
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On August 14 2011 10:20 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:10 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content. Can you imagine the shitstorm NASL would have found itself in if they had just released a statement saying, (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Sorry, things with the Koreans didn't work out, not gonna tell you why, just that all these Koreans won't be in season 2, kthxbye' And I don't agree with the whole "trying to paint themselves as good guys and SC2Con as the bad guys" I think a "after several weeks of negotiations with Korea teams, we were unable to come to a solution that would be suitable for both sides. We are extremely sad that so many great players will not be a part of season 2 and hope they will be able to participate in future tournaments. To our fans and customers, we are incredibly sorry for the delay in production this has caused, etc. etc." And taking care of matters (in terms of recuperating costs for the Korean teams violating the contract) behind doors would have been fine. Sure, there would have been a shitstorm on TL, but sometimes you just have to say, we will not be disclosing specifics about a business negotiation. And take it from the critics who simply can't accept that. And yes, I agree. I think this was more an attempt at damage control for NASL rather than specifically trying to make others out to be the bad guys.
Ha don't be so naive. The community already rips NASL apart at every chance they get. If they came out saying Koreans aren't taking part in NASL season 2 because of failed negotiations they would get murdered by the community and would lose so many more viewers. This community demands transparency (which I think is a little ridiculous, but it does help keep organizations in line). You can't just say "failed negotiations" because everyone would demand to know where the break down was, especially after season 1 featured Korean players.
I mean hell, people are looking at NASL in a terrible light here when they haven't even done anything wrong and tried to keep the Koreans in the NASL.
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the nasl site hasn't been updated and is still listing koreans players.
will nasl start at the scheduled date and with which players?
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On August 12 2011 08:14 bkrow wrote:
I am sure this is not the end of the issue.
Especially when a Korean wins NASL season 2. 
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On August 14 2011 10:28 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:20 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 10:10 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content. Can you imagine the shitstorm NASL would have found itself in if they had just released a statement saying, (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Sorry, things with the Koreans didn't work out, not gonna tell you why, just that all these Koreans won't be in season 2, kthxbye' And I don't agree with the whole "trying to paint themselves as good guys and SC2Con as the bad guys" I think a "after several weeks of negotiations with Korea teams, we were unable to come to a solution that would be suitable for both sides. We are extremely sad that so many great players will not be a part of season 2 and hope they will be able to participate in future tournaments. To our fans and customers, we are incredibly sorry for the delay in production this has caused, etc. etc." And taking care of matters (in terms of recuperating costs for the Korean teams violating the contract) behind doors would have been fine. Sure, there would have been a shitstorm on TL, but sometimes you just have to say, we will not be disclosing specifics about a business negotiation. And take it from the critics who simply can't accept that. And yes, I agree. I think this was more an attempt at damage control for NASL rather than specifically trying to make others out to be the bad guys. Ha don't be so naive. The community already rips NASL apart at every chance they get. If they came out saying Koreans aren't taking part in NASL season 2 because of failed negotiations they would get murdered by the community and would lose so many more viewers. This community demands transparency (which I think is a little ridiculous, but it does help keep organizations in line). You can't just say "failed negotiations" because everyone would demand to know where the break down was, especially after season 1 featured Korean players. I mean hell, people are looking at NASL in a terrible light here when they haven't even done anything wrong and tried to keep the Koreans in the NASL.
lol this is so true. The NASL staff's heads would be slung on pitchforks if they had done that. Blame would automatically be assigned to NASL and people would be DEMANDING to know the details.
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On August 14 2011 10:57 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 10:28 jmbthirteen wrote:On August 14 2011 10:20 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 10:10 Slider954 wrote:On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content. Can you imagine the shitstorm NASL would have found itself in if they had just released a statement saying, (and I'm paraphrasing) 'Sorry, things with the Koreans didn't work out, not gonna tell you why, just that all these Koreans won't be in season 2, kthxbye' And I don't agree with the whole "trying to paint themselves as good guys and SC2Con as the bad guys" I think a "after several weeks of negotiations with Korea teams, we were unable to come to a solution that would be suitable for both sides. We are extremely sad that so many great players will not be a part of season 2 and hope they will be able to participate in future tournaments. To our fans and customers, we are incredibly sorry for the delay in production this has caused, etc. etc." And taking care of matters (in terms of recuperating costs for the Korean teams violating the contract) behind doors would have been fine. Sure, there would have been a shitstorm on TL, but sometimes you just have to say, we will not be disclosing specifics about a business negotiation. And take it from the critics who simply can't accept that. And yes, I agree. I think this was more an attempt at damage control for NASL rather than specifically trying to make others out to be the bad guys. Ha don't be so naive. The community already rips NASL apart at every chance they get. If they came out saying Koreans aren't taking part in NASL season 2 because of failed negotiations they would get murdered by the community and would lose so many more viewers. This community demands transparency (which I think is a little ridiculous, but it does help keep organizations in line). You can't just say "failed negotiations" because everyone would demand to know where the break down was, especially after season 1 featured Korean players. I mean hell, people are looking at NASL in a terrible light here when they haven't even done anything wrong and tried to keep the Koreans in the NASL. lol this is so true. The NASL staff's heads would be slung on pitchforks if they had done that.
Just had another thought (shocking that I had one I know). NASL might have released their statement cause they saw what happened with EG/Puma/Coach Lee with Coach Lee talking to the press 1st and catching EG off-guard and maybe they figured that:
1)they released a very bland statement
2)shitstorm occurs for both NASL and Koreans
3)Koreans, looking to draw off some heat, release a statement "explaining what happened"
4)NASL, egg on their face
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On August 14 2011 10:29 AGK wrote:
the nasl site hasn't been updated and is still listing koreans players.
will nasl start at the scheduled date and with which players?
I think this is announced Thursday, and it's the weekend now.
They're probably still scrambling to come up with an alternative plan.
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On August 14 2011 10:29 AGK wrote:
the nasl site hasn't been updated and is still listing koreans players.
will nasl start at the scheduled date and with which players?
The only listing of them is in an old article with season 2 players. If you click the players tab is still lists the players from season 1. Of course they do need to update it. I think they are waiting until they confirm the new players for season 2 to make an official press release (which they said will be in a few days)
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2011 10:04 JSy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 09:36 TDN3 wrote:
lol. This is so unprofessional. Jumping out with a long essay basically saying the Koreans are the bad guys and NASL is the good guy, instead of stating "negotiation were failed and Koreans decided to not attend season 2" This is so immature by an organization. I wholeheartedly agree with this summation of the situation. For almost any other organization, there is absolutely no reason to delve into details about the discussion had (PRIVATELY I might add) between two parties that were essentially a contract negation. (Of course the Korean players all signed contracts before bringing up the negotiations so NASL would be well within their rights to flat-out deny any requests.) Unfortunately, it feels like NASL has received so much flack from the community during season 1 relating to, among many other issues, secrecy, that they felt it necessary to address those criticisms in their initial announcement. Note to NASL, don't worry or mind about the haters. It's amazing that you are a grass-roots community tournament that is continuing the try to stay close to the community, but sometimes you need to put on a corporate face if only to protect your relationships with other organizations (like the Korean teams in this case). The reasonable will understand, and the unreasonable will come around eventually as long as you are able to keep providing great content.
Whenever there is a disagremeent between two companies, that leads to two companies parting ways, there is ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS, an official statement.
I don't see why you think this should be different for NASL. They have an obligation to notify their fans and subscribers, and a right to protect their brand from wrongly directed hate and abuse.
If SC2Con doesn't like being caught in a hailstorm of hate, perhaps they should change how they do business. Sometimes things like this are the only ways to motivate the desire to change.
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Tell them to fuck off. What cunts. And Koreans go in an uproar about EG getting prime who wasn't even contracted and use bullshit excuses. This is ridiculous. Don't invite them.
User was warned for this post
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EPT
