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On August 14 2011 14:43 yiodee wrote:
So they have been stealing prizes from foreign tournaments for months and now they are getting picky.
NASL gave them a good offer, it is not fair that they spit on it like that
Ok now I have been very vocal in how I don't like how the Korean teams have handled their business, but stealing prizes? Come on now, every Korean that has won a foreign tournament won it fair and square and earned the win through hard work.
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On August 14 2011 15:55 xBillehx wrote:Not before mentioning that apparently it really wasn't sc2con behind the master plan. Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:20 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message. Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle.. and Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 14:25 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 14:24 VillageBC wrote:On August 14 2011 14:20 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message. Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle.. Because teams are not in SC2Con does not exclude them from being pressured from the organization. Between NASL, FXO and SC2Con psuedo statement. There is something seriously funky going on over there and it does not appear to be above board at all. There is alot of stuff re: NASL that I cant talk about as its heresay. But I can tell you that sc2con is only an 'organising party' in this situation. They did not spread or enforce anything to do with it. Emphasis on the last sentence!
There's another thread on it but it's been determined already that SC2Con had some kind of involvement with the NASL drama.
Like I said, I think FXO doesn't want to get involved in this drama, which is smart. Also, I don't think he would know what SC2Con has been doing in terms of the NASL situation, especially when you consider how hidden and untransparent their dealings are.
I mean FXO couldn't even get the guy to speak to him on a phone until now and even they're not sure who's in charge, even with all of the threats and midnight phone calls being made.
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On August 14 2011 16:14 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 15:55 xBillehx wrote:On August 14 2011 15:42 whateverpeeps wrote:Apparently, FXO has just quit SC2Con. They have distanced themselves from the NASL-SC2Con drama (wisely, I think). But the actions that FXO accuses of SC2Con taking seem to coincide with the actions that have been taken in the NASL situation. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254635 Not before mentioning that apparently it really wasn't sc2con behind the master plan. On August 14 2011 14:20 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message. Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle.. and On August 14 2011 14:25 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 14:24 VillageBC wrote:On August 14 2011 14:20 FXOpen wrote:On August 14 2011 14:17 Zzoram wrote:
If all the NASL communications have been going through SC2Con, how do we know that SC2Con didn't purposely mislead both sides to sabotage NASL? I think NASL needs to get in touch with the teams directly and confirm that SC2Con isn't changing the message. Because teams not in sc2con are also taking the same action.... And there is a reason those teams arent in sc2con..... Sc2con had a limited 'helping hand' with the NASL debacle.. Because teams are not in SC2Con does not exclude them from being pressured from the organization. Between NASL, FXO and SC2Con psuedo statement. There is something seriously funky going on over there and it does not appear to be above board at all. There is alot of stuff re: NASL that I cant talk about as its heresay. But I can tell you that sc2con is only an 'organising party' in this situation. They did not spread or enforce anything to do with it. Emphasis on the last sentence! There's another thread on it but it's been determined already that SC2Con had some kind of involvement with the NASL drama. Like I said, I think FXO doesn't want to get involved in this drama, which is smart. Also, I don't think he would know what SC2Con has been doing in terms of the NASL situation, especially when you consider how hidden and untransparent their dealings are. I mean FXO couldn't even get the guy to speak to him on a phone until now and even they're not sure who's in charge, even with all of the threats and midnight phone calls being made.
I don't think SC2Con is responsible for Korean teams backing out of the NASL, but it's bizarre that teams feel the need to consult with them in order to be involved. Moreover, it would seem that the SC2Con should be involved to represent the interests of the teams and assist in communicating with the NASL, not Chae.
The fact that Xeris can't get anyone on the phone, either from SC2Con or the teams, is just as incomprehensible as SC2Con being directly responsible, imo.
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To me, one telling fact in what influence SC2Con has, perceived or otherwise, is the statement FXOBoss made in the other thread
Our discussions are with sC and choya mostly, and it has alot to do with whether they feel comfortable going against the trend from teams who are most willingly not participating in the NASL
Why would they have to feel comfortable going against the trend from the other teams? Are they afraid of repercussions if they do go? If they want to go, they should go. It doesn't matter what the other teams are doing, unless there is pressuring going on from the other teams.
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Well, there is always pressure to go against the broad majority of the scene, since it'll weaken the image of the scene as a whole. So I wouldn't think so much into it.
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I doubt NASL will recover from this, the problem really is in their statement they are implying that Koreans aren't willing to come, even if the terms are reasonable. It almost comes across like there's some backdoor stuff going on trying to keep NASL from growing. I disagree that they had to make this statement as it quite frankly shines a terrible light on the organization. I hope for their sake the HON tournament is a success.
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To be honest, the NASL SHOULD have MORE and BETTER players in their tournament. Their tournament is run better, scheduled better, and significantly more open (as a result of multiple factors). Foreigners decline to play in the GSL mainly because the scheduling is so terrible for players that they are unable to. Koreans decline playing in the NASL because they aren't getting paid unnecessary amounts of money? Come on... The NASL is doing the best they currently can to pay their players well. I used to seriously dislike the NASL in it's beginnings, but at this point it seems to be a better tournament than the GSL (aside from the hype, player pool, and maybe delay between games). GSL makes their tournament look great by having every match played in a stadium with booths, specially presented names (who doesn't like having cute girls say their names), and having tastetosis. I really hope that it eventually works out in a few seasons that Koreans and foreigners freely enter both the GSL and NASL and look at both as the two biggest tournaments to play in (with maybe a ESL?). As much as we would like to believe that the foreign and Korean scenes are merging, they are still very separate because we don't have a good schedule for tournaments around the world. The GSL is played every month, the NASL is played for several months at a time like 2-3 times a year, and the TSL is played once a year for a month or more at a time (based on how many major concurrent tournaments delays the TSL). If there could TRULY be a GLOBAL SC2 schedule that ALL tournaments follow, then players can easily play in many large tournaments, get their names out there, and the fans would easily be able to follow them. The issue with that though, is the travel costs if too many events are placed in too many places around the world at all times of the year. I'm thinking thing should be done in seasons, with a Korea-based season to start the early part of the year, then a Europe-based season to lead us into the middle of the year, followed by a NA-based season, and finished with a SEA/Pacific-based season. But it would take a lot of power away from GOMtv which they clearly don't want. Right now, GOMtv is basically the superpower of SC2 as it has a vast majority of the Korean players and screws up other tournament schedules by ALWAYS having the GSL and GSTL without any REAL break period. You literally have another season to prepare for in another weak.
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On August 14 2011 18:43 RyLai wrote:
To be honest, the NASL SHOULD have MORE and BETTER players in their tournament. Their tournament is run better, scheduled better, and significantly more open (as a result of multiple factors). Foreigners decline to play in the GSL mainly because the scheduling is so terrible for players that they are unable to. Koreans decline playing in the NASL because they aren't getting paid unnecessary amounts of money? Come on... The NASL is doing the best they currently can to pay their players well. I used to seriously dislike the NASL in it's beginnings, but at this point it seems to be a better tournament than the GSL (aside from the hype, player pool, and maybe delay between games). GSL makes their tournament look great by having every match played in a stadium with booths, specially presented names (who doesn't like having cute girls say their names), and having tastetosis. I really hope that it eventually works out in a few seasons that Koreans and foreigners freely enter both the GSL and NASL and look at both as the two biggest tournaments to play in (with maybe a ESL?). As much as we would like to believe that the foreign and Korean scenes are merging, they are still very separate because we don't have a good schedule for tournaments around the world. The GSL is played every month, the NASL is played for several months at a time like 2-3 times a year, and the TSL is played once a year for a month or more at a time (based on how many major concurrent tournaments delays the TSL). If there could TRULY be a GLOBAL SC2 schedule that ALL tournaments follow, then players can easily play in many large tournaments, get their names out there, and the fans would easily be able to follow them. The issue with that though, is the travel costs if too many events are placed in too many places around the world at all times of the year. I'm thinking thing should be done in seasons, with a Korea-based season to start the early part of the year, then a Europe-based season to lead us into the middle of the year, followed by a NA-based season, and finished with a SEA/Pacific-based season. But it would take a lot of power away from GOMtv which they clearly don't want. Right now, GOMtv is basically the superpower of SC2 as it has a vast majority of the Korean players and screws up other tournament schedules by ALWAYS having the GSL and GSTL without any REAL break period. You literally have another season to prepare for in another weak.
Next time you make a long post, you should really break it into paragraphs that was quite a pain to read.
The bolded part is quite a big deal for a tournament. How can a tournament be considered better than a different one if the player pool has significantly less skill? Also how is NASL run better? The production quality was amateur level in season one. There were no shows to matches and the scheduling for some players was ridiculous.
I'm not sure where you get the GOM not wanting to lose power bit from either.
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Well are we going to get a response from NASL on why they claimed MVP and FXOsC both wanted to participate when the Play XP article claims that was not the case?
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In the not so distant future there will be lockouts and pro e-sport players will be fighting over millions of dollars instead of thousands.
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On August 14 2011 22:26 Chriscras wrote:
Well are we going to get a response from NASL on why they claimed MVP and FXOsC both wanted to participate when the Play XP article claims that was not the case?
dont expect too much, everyone lies to be on the good side and can blame the evil one, thats internet for u
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late to chime in but that's a shame, NaDa was the whole reason i liked NASL.
as a massive NaDa fan i am very sad 
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Example of Korean player playing in Season 2:
-Pay $500 NOW receive $500 4 ½ months later-BAD
-Playing matches at unpleasant times with lag-BAD
-Win a lot during the season= Grand Finals trip with:
Travel stipend of $1,000 
Round trip plane ticket Korea to America (~$1500)
Transportation to and from airport+food+lodging+other costs (~$500)
A player who does exceptionally well in the league has LOST ~$1,000 until NASL pays prize money sometime 60 days after the season is over. Many Koreans teams and players are very tight on cash
When all is said and done, I predict NASL will be made to look bad for two reasons:
1. Promptness of payments- The contracts players signed before NASL Season 1 explicitly state that prize money would be awarded within 60 days upon completion of the season. However, this is an unreasonable amount of time to delay payouts.
They still have 20+ days to payout prize money from Season 1, but it looks awful when your league is taking so damn long to payout players. Even if you make it clear that you have 60 days to dish-out prize money and repay security deposits, your only asking for trouble when players are not paid promptly.
2. Security Deposit- Season 1 had a $250 deposit Due March 20th. When a WeMadeFox player withdrew from Season 2, WMF was refunded in full August 8th. The 250$ was held by NASL ~ 4 ½ months.
NASL is fully within their right to do this, but it's an unpleasant part of the league from a player perspective. Now a player has to put up $500 to play in the league for Season 2. From past precedent, a player will be -$500 for at least 4 ½ months to participate in the league.
I am not here to say NASL is in the wrong or breaking any rules. Rather my point is that if you put yourself in the shoes of a Korean player, the upfront costs coupled with lengthy payout wait times is not acceptable to you. It is likely that you will have NEGATIVE $500-2,000 for a long period of time before receiving prize money
The prize money total is NOT the issue. Koreans made $80,000+ in prize money from Season 1. The issue is having NEGATIVE money for many months until being paid. This is a HUGE problem. I think NASL should restructure payouts and security deposits to ease the upfront financial burden on teams and players.
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On August 14 2011 18:43 RyLai wrote:
To be honest, the NASL SHOULD have MORE and BETTER players in their tournament. Their tournament is run better, scheduled better, and significantly more open (as a result of multiple factors).
Wait, what?
1. It's not run better - NASL season 1 (the only season we've seen so far) was so dodgy and rough around the edges in terms of production, general organization (wrong maps and all), and basically everything. GSL has been chugging along smoothly since the beginning.
2. It's not scheduled better. It has 10 week long qualifiers, it's played exclusively on NA which is bad enough in itself, general scheduling around other major tournaments was awful last season and led to several walkovers due to conflicts, people had to play at the worst possible time of the day. It was generally a mess. Again, let me remind you that GSL regularly schedules around MLG and even other tournaments (Blizzcon and Dreamhack), postponing matches for foreigners and traveling Koreans as long as possible when they participate.
3. It's not more open. In fact Season 1 wasn't open at all, it was 100% invitational, without a clear and transparent criteria of who gets invited, and it had so many weird invites that calling it open is not even funny. Season 2 is still largely based on last season's invites. GSL is 100% open, except for a few Code A invites handed out to foreign players.
After Season 1, NASL should be happy to keep most of the top Europeans playing, let alone expect Koreans and to "have more better players than GSL". -_-
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On August 14 2011 22:45 common_cider wrote:Example of Korean player playing in Season 2: -Pay $500 NOW receive $500 4 ½ months later-BAD -Playing matches at unpleasant times with lag-BAD -Win a lot during the season= Grand Finals trip with: Travel stipend of $1,000 Round trip plane ticket Korea to America (~$1500) Transportation to and from airport+food+lodging+other costs (~$500) A player who does exceptionally well in the league has LOST ~$1,000 until NASL pays prize money sometime 60 days after the season is over. Many Koreans teams and players are very tight on cash When all is said and done, I predict NASL will be made to look bad for two reasons: 1. Promptness of payments- The contracts players signed before NASL Season 1 explicitly state that prize money would be awarded within 60 days upon completion of the season. However, this is an unreasonable amount of time to delay payouts. They still have 20+ days to payout prize money from Season 1, but it looks awful when your league is taking so damn long to payout players. Even if you make it clear that you have 60 days to dish-out prize money and repay security deposits, your only asking for trouble when players are not paid promptly. 2. Security Deposit- Season 1 had a $250 deposit Due March 20th. When a WeMadeFox player withdrew from Season 2, WMF was refunded in full August 8th. The 250$ was held by NASL ~ 4 ½ months. NASL is fully within their right to do this, but it's an unpleasant part of the league from a player perspective. Now a player has to put up $500 to play in the league for Season 2. From past precedent, a player will be -$500 for at least 4 ½ months to participate in the league. I am not here to say NASL is in the wrong or breaking any rules. Rather my point is that if you put yourself in the shoes of a Korean player, the upfront costs coupled with lengthy payout wait times is not acceptable to you. It is likely that you will have NEGATIVE $500-2,000 for a long period of time before receiving prize money The prize money total is NOT the issue. Koreans made $80,000+ in prize money from Season 1. The issue is having NEGATIVE money for many months until being paid. This is a HUGE problem. I think NASL should restructure payouts and security deposits to ease the upfront financial burden on teams and players.
I dunno about you, but I've had to put a security deposit down on my apartment, which is around 500 dollars. I'm not complaining about it, and Koreans shouldn't either.
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Basically, Koreans want 0 monetary risk when participating in foreign tournaments. Which I find quite ironic because they wonder why foreign participation in the GSL is low.
Hint: it's too much of a monetary risk for foreigners.
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+ Show Spoiler +
"I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
...
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!" -NASL
So this is NASL's thought process:
1.) Assumed decision was made by a Korean committee (which was completely false).
2.) Didn't want to write out SC2 Korean Team Committee in the lengthy OP:
3.) Oh, SC2Con is a korean committee, let's use that!
Turns out:
1.) S2Con never made any decisions, and that 7 Korean teams (including SlayerS, FXOKorea) all wanted to withdraw.
2.) Among the teams that withdrew, only 3 are actually in S2Con - oGs, Startale, Prime.
+ Show Spoiler +
s2con members:
IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX
Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement:
oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL:
SlayerS, FXO Korea
Total of 7 teams withdraw from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON
Did NASL.tv think it was wise to burn bridges with every Korean team and now defame S2Con based on assumptions?
What the fuck is going on over there at NASL? At least do the right thing and fucking update the OP.
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definitely reasonable.
Koreans just forfeited their chance to win the prize money.
Their lost.
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I know that for most of us that is disappointing, but look it from the bright side- for a tournament as big as MLG or GSL it will be like the foreigner GSL. I am sure that all of us want to watch the best players and I am not an exception, but for me personally watching Koreans overrun all foreigners at MLG was just sad. I guess I am the only one who thinks these are good news....
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On August 15 2011 03:49 aztrorisk wrote:
definitely reasonable.
Koreans just forfeited their chance to win the prize money.
Their lost.
Bullshit. NASL will lose 1000times more money than the the Koreans. NASL without Koreans is like WNBA.
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EPT
