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On August 12 2011 21:48 Needo wrote:
Seriously? I dont give a damn about the "Koreans" there are only some of them that are really cool guys like MC or Boxer. But the rest of them cant even speak english. I enjoy watching guys playing against each other more when they have some kind of background in the community and i "Know" them.
But some random koreans with no interest in the community or esport itself. Go play in your damn GSL i dont give a fuck.
nice logic there. i could say that i hate the german accent and i don't like watching any german commentators because of that but that just sounds totally dumb. why should all koreans have to speak english. that's what translators are for.
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On August 12 2011 22:01 Furycrab wrote:
Am I reading this wrong but that there's still a possibility for FXO Korea, IM, New Star Hoseo and Slayers to be participating?
Slayers abandoned NASL even before this notice.
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On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else?
Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366
As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times.
Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it.
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On August 12 2011 22:05 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:53 lagbzz wrote:Surprising to say the least.
On a side note, I know that iNcontrol left the NASL for other reasons, but I wonder whether this played a part in his decision to leave. He left NASL a while before the finals and the whole puma drama Edit: Well derp derp, he casted the finals, now I remember ><. To make this post somewhat on topic. I wonder why they think NASL is so evil, they give them more money now, are they still afraid of "them" "stealing" their players? Sorry, but that was a buyout, and EG did propose it to Puma, so... Where is the logic here? They think NASL works with EG or what?? They will attend MLG, so for me, a simple TL user, it's pretty stupid and ignorant stance from Korean teams. Except regardless of what happened with Puma, the Koreans had every right to pull out from this NASL. They had to deal with an inordinate amount of BS from NASL last season and their contracts couldn't get done this season so...no dice. Please read the posts. They don't work with NASL because NASL treated them like crap last season and couldn't finish their contracts with them this season. They work with MLG because MLG works with them in order to better both of their respective leagues. Does that clear things up now? It's all there in the last few pages of posting. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:57 Shikyo wrote:On August 12 2011 08:11 Sandro wrote:
There goes 80% of NASL's viewers. Actually, I think it's much better this way, I definitely think that Koreans in that league would have been out of place and I prefer it this way, the Koreans also seemed to show an unacceptably high-and-mighty attitude and this actually increases my likelihood to watch these matches rather than decreasing it. How would they be out of place? By winning everything? The Koreans showed an unacceptably high and mighty attitude? Where were you during season 1 when they were walked all over by NASL? You want them to just bend over and take it again? I find it sad that people seem to be going out of their way to just bash the Koreans without caring about the circumstances and the history.
walked all over by nasl? why? In my view they did everything for the koreans because we told them we wanted koreans.. Not the league has more then 20 koreans and the system would allow for the koreans to take over the league in a few season considering some of the top foreigners are not even there.. NASL would have 40 koreans in two seasons
Remember GSL doesn't pay anything for any foreigner! They give them a place to stay and that's nice but they don't pay food or plane tickets and once you are there if you want to do something you have to live there for atleast two seasons or else you won't even make it to code A! two months away from home and paying for your food! In NASL they just want you to make a commitment to the league with the 250$ is that so much for a 2 months league? then only the 16 top players go to the finals where they spend at most 3 days in the states?
plane tickets+3 days accommodation+food
versus
plane tickets+2 or more months of food
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On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else? Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it.
I am sick of people saying that lag does not matter. Of course lag matters. Delay matters, and lag-spikes matter even more. Playing under constant delay is bad enough, and to some extent can even be accommodated by practicing in similar laggy conditions, but lag spikes are unpredictable and can never be accounted for. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
And even as far as delay is concerned, it still has an effect on play. If you are competing with someone at a game where reaction speeds and precise timing matters, then it is quite absurd to suggest that a delay makes no difference. The fact that Koreans won despite horrendous playing conditions is a testament to their huge skill. And also you will have noticed that some Koreans have lost games playing in such online conditions that you would never expect them to lose playing in level playing conditions. . MC for example lost several games that I do not believe he would have lost otherwise.
And do you think it is trivial to play SC2 at 4 in the morning?
Really...
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On August 12 2011 21:30 AnalThermometer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 20:53 dabom88 wrote:
To me a fan is someone who likes a product. These aren't "good times and bad times", this is ONE tournament. I think that as a fan, if this tournament is not doing things you think are the right way to do things, it's actually your duty as a fan to give support to tournaments you think ARE doing things the right way. Nowhere in my definition of a fan does a fan support something they think is bad. You're making the assumption that all "true" SC2 fans think NASL is good for e-sports. They don't.
And my response to your comparison was about fan response. Surprise, if fans think something sucks, they'll say it sucks. They said MLG sucked when it sucked. They said it was good when it became good. The same applies for NASL, no special treatment. They'll say NASL sucks if they think it does. And they'll keep saying it until they feel that it has stopped sucking, or it folds. That's quite a sad definition of a fan, you are describing consumers. You even seem to be implying a tournament with massive prizepools for the players which fills up seats at a venue and also gave us one of the best finals in SC2 so far.... is actually NOT good for esports. Which blows my mind. Must be living in bizzaro world today. Those people can say MLG sucked, I'll be saying technichal problems happen and to keep perspective. In the same vein, I'll also be saying NASL can improve if people support it, give it constructive criticism and not just say "lol NASL sux, i hate incontrol!!". You can go hang with the other crowd.
All subjective arguments. I can tell you right now the majority of fans do not think NASL had "one of the best finals in SC2 so far". Maybe you are in Bizarroo. You can keep blindly supporting a bad product. Guess I'll live in the real world.
You don't have to support a bad basketball league in order to be a basketball fan. You don't need to support a bad soccer league to be a soccer fan. etc. Constructive criticism has been given and there's been no sign of change in the near future. So it's not going to be surprising if a lot of SC2 FANs don't support NASL until they get their act together.
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On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else? Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it.
The main issue here is, I think, that the teams won't get 100% compensated for the flight/hotel costs. Sure, the player gets guaranteed prize money, however it's the team that pays the costs and they don't want to ask their players to give them a share.
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On August 12 2011 22:01 Furycrab wrote:
Am I reading this wrong but that there's still a possibility for FXO Korea, IM, New Star Hoseo and Slayers to be participating?
It's in the thread. BoxeR (and I guess by extension SlayerS) will not be participating because of the same reasons as the rest of the Koreans. No word on IM, NSHS. As of right now FXO is no go but they're trying to work on it separately.
On August 12 2011 22:04 BronzeKnee wrote:
I really like the NASL, but wasn't sure if I can afford to shell out $25 for this season before this. Now I really want to now to support foreign E-sports though.
However wonder if some of this has to do with the fact that a TSL player was poached by the team who had people involved in the production of the NASL. That really gave me a bad feeling and hurts the professionalism of the NASL.
Or I wonder if it has something with the fact that NASL gave the Koreans a VERY raw deal in season 1 and now they decided they don't want to bother with it if their demands aren't met? NASL walked all over the Koreans in Season 1...that's fine. Koreans play hard ball in Season 2...128 page charlie foxtrot of a thread within 12 hours?
On August 12 2011 22:05 shell wrote:
i might be the only one but I'm more interested in nasl again. I bought the first pass and i was not going to renew for 2nd season because for kor vs kor I have GSL.
Once again this is foreigners and some koreans so it's way more fun for me! I want to see foreigners compete with Koreans.
I will buy the season pass again!
They will regret it for sure and there isn't much tournaments where the players have everything paid for them.. They need to understand that if they want to win money then have to spend money!
Why don't they make a rule with their players so that the team gets a percentage of their wins?
And please don't come again with the time difference and time consumption because to win 50K and considering their high chances they should be proud and happy to get up at 2AM because most of those players will never win GSL..
You need to understand that unless there is more interaction, then there really isn't going to be much competition against Kr. You also need to understand that as a business decision, it's a sound one because NASL is not about a 3 day final series but rather, 3 long months during which the Koreans had to put up with a lot of BS the last time around. Also, proud and happy to get up at 2am for a 4am game...that has nothing to do with whether they will win a GSL. It's the fact that they consistently get 4am games while players in NA play in the afternoon and players in EU play in the evening. Heck even players in SEA get to play somewhat reasonable hours in early morning. It's not hard to see why they wouldn't want to come back if they didn't get a better deal.
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On August 12 2011 22:11 epij wrote:This whole discussion is a nice example, that this whole scene/community/industry still lacks a huge amount of professionalism. Quotes like this Show nested quote +Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions are completely retarded. I heard you guys like comparisons to 'real' sport events; do you think the management of global sport events like Tour de France, Soccer World/Euro Cup, F1, ATP World Series, gives a crap about some competitors crying its unfair to pay for their own travel expenses - or worse to pay them travel expenses and yet they still cry they don't get enough assured price money, before they even attend or even if they don't win anything? They've got a shot at winning price money, that's how tournaments work.
Your argument is equally stupid. All the teams in the sports you listed have the sponsor capital to a point where the actual prizemoney doesn't matter anymore. If a cycling team/tennis player turns up to a tournament, they don't risk any personal capital, all they're risking is sponsor money. Doesn't work like that in SC2, not for korean teams at least.
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sad to hear this guys ... but what's happened has happened, and that's that. hopefully it wont turn out like this again.
best of luck to you!
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On August 12 2011 22:13 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else? Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it. The main issue here is, I think, that the teams won't get 100% compensated for the flight/hotel costs. Sure, the player gets guaranteed prize money, however it's the team that pays the costs and they don't want to ask their players to give them a share.
So NASL should say: "Hey Korean Teams, here you have the free chance to win 100.000$ price money, since you are that good you probably will even get most of the top10 spots, and of course we pay all your travel expenses so that your risk not to win anything in a skill based competition is even less."?
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On August 12 2011 22:16 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:11 epij wrote:This whole discussion is a nice example, that this whole scene/community/industry still lacks a huge amount of professionalism. Quotes like this Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions are completely retarded. I heard you guys like comparisons to 'real' sport events; do you think the management of global sport events like Tour de France, Soccer World/Euro Cup, F1, ATP World Series, gives a crap about some competitors crying its unfair to pay for their own travel expenses - or worse to pay them travel expenses and yet they still cry they don't get enough assured price money, before they even attend or even if they don't win anything? They've got a shot at winning price money, that's how tournaments work. Your argument is equally stupid. All the teams in the sports you listed have the sponsor capital to a point where the actual prizemoney doesn't matter anymore. If a cycling team/tennis player turns up to a tournament, they don't risk any personal capital, all they're risking is sponsor money. Doesn't work like that in SC2, not for korean teams at least.
Well, so we should build tournaments around special player/communities instead?
This is a shift of paradigms that doesn't work out in the long run.
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NASL, KOrean players and theKorean teams need to work out an agreement. NASL could provide the 2K to the team.
Out of that $2K, $1600 goes to the team, $400 goes to the player. The Korean player and the Korean team must agree to this deal. Whatever the KOrean player earns after the round of 16 should be left as bonus and personally kept for the respective Korean player. I think that this specific set-up isa pretty fair deal. If I was an S class player like Byun or Puzzle, MVP I would agree to the deal. Since the chances of getting past the round of 16 is pretty darn high.
If a Korean player doesn't get past the round of 16, the experience of participating in an international event like NASL would be well worth the investment of time. Plus the Korean player who makes it to the final 16 of NASL will earn 400 dollars anyways.
If you guys see any flaws in this deal, please point the errors out to me.
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Korean players feel that NASL used them to just make more money.
We all know, that NASL hadn't had all the money before the finals. They had like NO SPONSORS when the season started. They were so stupid to believe that the hype would get them all the money, after the horrible failiure they tried to hype up the Finals with a OpenBracket etc and some Koreans but at the End they still don't had the money. No Money + Bad Production = It only get's worse.
Even the NASL Finals are dead now. Sorry, I don't want to watch bad Foreigners get owned by B-Team Koreans who where to bad for a paid spot at a Korean Team, that they joined a Foreign Team. Its the fault of NASL, they wanted to have a big hype beacuse of the 50k #1st Prize but had no money for Flightcosts/Banners/Tech left.
Too bad that NASL was organized so bad. If NASL took more time to find sponsors and don't rushed it, they wouldn't have had all the ridiculous sound/stream-problems and maybe they decided for a better league-format what would have helped the League.
There goes 80% of NASL's viewers.
The whole 1000? :o
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On August 12 2011 22:12 Liudo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else? Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it. I am sick of people saying that lag does not matter. Of course lag matters. Delay matters, and lag-spikes matter even more. Playing under constant delay is bad enough, and to some extent can even be accommodated by practicing in similar laggy conditions, but lag spikes are unpredictable and can never be accounted for. To say otherwise is ridiculous. And even as far as delay is concerned, it still has an effect on play. If you are competing with someone at a game where reaction speeds and precise timing matters, then it is quite absurd to suggest that a delay makes no difference. The fact that Koreans won despite horrendous playing conditions is a testament to their huge skill. And also you will have noticed that some Koreans have lost games playing in such online conditions that you would never expect them to lose playing in level playing conditions. . MC for example lost several games that I do not believe he would have lost otherwise. And do you think it is trivial to play SC2 at 4 in the morning? Really...
I never said it had no effect whatsoever, I just said it was minimal. You didn't even click on the link, did you? I'm sorry, but I'm gonna take LiquidJinro's word over yours.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366
Also, it isn't trivial to play SC2 at 4 in the morning, but it was also unavoidable given the production format.
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no offence but i think the prize pool is way TOO HIGH for this kind of competition (without koreans)
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On August 12 2011 22:18 epij wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:13 JustPassingBy wrote:On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else? Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it. The main issue here is, I think, that the teams won't get 100% compensated for the flight/hotel costs. Sure, the player gets guaranteed prize money, however it's the team that pays the costs and they don't want to ask their players to give them a share. So NASL should say: "Hey Korean Teams, here you have the free chance to win 100.000$ price money, since you are that good you probably will even get most of the top10 spots, and of course we pay all your travel expenses so that your risk not to win anything in a skill based competition is even less."?
Well, that's how things are handled I asia, I think. CPL paid all its players.
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Why not just have the finals done over alternating servers?
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that's a real shame tbh, korean vs korean and korean vs foreigner to some extent are the only games I bother watching at this point
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EPT
