EPTOn August 12 2011 22:27 SkimGuy wrote:
Why not just have the finals done over alternating servers?
Why not just have the finals done over alternating servers?
Nobody wants to see a 3 month tournament culminate in a lag fest at the finals.
Korean teams withdraw from NASL - Page 130
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dabom88
United States3483 Posts
Nobody wants to see a 3 month tournament culminate in a lag fest at the finals. | ||
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
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CaptainSmail
United States18 Posts
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote: Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366 As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it. Jinro himself played on the best Kr->Na connection in the oGs house. There were countless reports from IM and Prime that the connections were a lot worse than what he described. Not to mention, they make no effort to cycle playing times or even aim for slightly less awkward hours for the Koreans. If someone HAS to play at 4am...you know how to make it fair? Make it so that everyone has to play at an unfortunate time somewhere in the tournament, not just the Koreans. Not much you can do about the lag issue but scheduling could ABSOLUTELY have been helped and they just refused to do it. If they won't even accommodate things like this, can you blame the Koreans for not wanting to come? Remember, it's 3 MONTHS of enduring this (and messing up your own schedules) for a chance to play for money. Not quite the same as paying for a 3 day LAN where everyone is on even footing and you just play, do some press, and go home. On August 12 2011 22:11 shell wrote: walked all over by nasl? why? In my view they did everything for the koreans because we told them we wanted koreans.. Not the league has more then 20 koreans and the system would allow for the koreans to take over the league in a few season considering some of the top foreigners are not even there.. NASL would have 40 koreans in two seasons Remember GSL doesn't pay anything for any foreigner! They give them a place to stay and that's nice but they don't pay food or plane tickets and once you are there if you want to do something you have to live there for atleast two seasons or else you won't even make it to code A! two months away from home and paying for your food! In NASL they just want you to make a commitment to the league with the 250$ is that so much for a 2 months league? then only the 16 top players go to the finals where they spend at most 3 days in the states? plane tickets+3 days accommodation+food versus plane tickets+2 or more months of food By walk all over I mean the scheduling. If you followed NASL in season 1, you would know what I'm talking about. Long story short, while they scheduled all the NA players to play in the afternoon, and the EU players to play in the evening, the KR players were stuck with 4am games. Also, GSL doesn't prohibit anyone from not making it through qualifiers. If the players aren't good enough, guess what. They should have trained with more Koreans sooner. The problem with NASL being almost 3 months long is that because of the way they schedule, it completely screws up Korean practice regimens and participation in other leagues for those 3 months. It even screws up foreigners participating in other leagues albeit not to the same extent. Also, those that go over on a GOM sponsorship go for free, stay for free, are given free Code A slots and GOM helps them find practice houses and partners. How has NASL reached out and done anything similar? On August 12 2011 22:11 epij wrote: This whole discussion is a nice example, that this whole scene/community/industry still lacks a huge amount of professionalism. Quotes like this are completely retarded. I heard you guys like comparisons to 'real' sport events; do you think the management of global sport events like Tour de France, Soccer World/Euro Cup, F1, ATP World Series, gives a crap about some competitors crying its unfair to pay for their own travel expenses - or worse to pay them travel expenses and yet they still cry they don't get enough assured price money, before they even attend or even if they don't win anything? They've got a shot at winning price money, that's how tournaments work. That's not the reason why it's unfair. Please read the posts. The reason it was unfair was because of the scheduling and latency issues. That, in conjunction with the travel costs, and I can see how it's not worth it for many Koreans to participate. To use a real sports analogy, imagine if the Tour De France decided that all American riders had to endure x amount of extra sleep deprivation or use a 5 pound weight on their bikes. That wouldn't be very would it? And I'm 100% sure that people would complain. | ||
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On August 12 2011 22:11 epij wrote: I heard you guys like comparisons to 'real' sport events; do you think the management of global sport events like Tour de France, Soccer World/Euro Cup, F1, ATP World Series, gives a crap about some competitors crying its unfair to pay for their own travel expenses - or worse to pay them travel expenses and yet they still cry they don't get enough assured price money, before they even attend or even if they don't win anything? They've got a shot at winning price money, that's how tournaments work. You are totally wrong! Every comercially run Sportsevent (especially big ones like UEFA Champions League, Football (Soccer for all americans ;D) Worldcup or Tour de France) pays Money to the competing Teams that easyly eats up every traveling costs. They are basically paid for competing and if they succeed they get additional prize money. That's how it works in professional sports and professional tournaments. So you could basically say, the SC2Con wants the NASL to be a professional tournament and the NASL said "No!". But the interesting question would be how profitable it is, to run a tournament like NASL. Can they effort paying the traveling costs or would paying them ruin the NASL? Have they actual finance issues? They got a lot of commercials at the NASL finals, so you could suppose they are making lots of money. If that's true, then they should concentrate on investing into the tournament, and that would be securing that they've got a strongest lineup, which would include those korean players. | ||
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FaLLeNaNg3L
Germany5 Posts
I think it will bite them in their butt to not pay the korean expenses... i at least probably will not buy an NASL ticket this season.... | ||
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chatuka
1351 Posts
This thread is about Money tripper. Korean teams aren't being compensated for the investment they put into their player's expenses. The solution is to design a tri-lateral agreement between NASL, SC2con, and the Korean players. I think they,three, can arrange something. THERE is too much money at stake to lose for the Korean players. And Too much exposure a team like NHSEO or Zenex could desperately USE so that Sponsors will pay THEM. NASL as a major even would benefit several fold due to increased competition with a more varied and competitive player's pool with Korean pro gamers amongst the pool. Basically NASL, Korean teams, Korean players all have something to gain if they agree to work together for Season 2. It would be a shame if a win-win-win deal turned into a lost cause and the downfall of NASL because of a cache(Snafu) that entangled the relationship between NASL and South Korea. I described my tri-lateral contract in a previous post. Basically the Team gets like 1700. the Players gets like 300. NASL provides the team with 2000 for the round of 16 for each player, should the player NOT make it past that round. Any round beyond rd16, the player keeps as prize. If the team is not happy with this specific financial structure , Perhaps, theKorean team can siphon or slice a small percentage of the player's earnings for you know, training, investment, and feeding the person. That discussion, regarding team interest rates on players, should be determined by the player and TEAM. NOT between the Team and NASL. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
Come on guys.. if it's like NASL said then i don't see how you can blame NASL for this.. They are clearly being primadonas, simply put they are not interest or they are simply trying to make a show of force.. But i don't understand how some people accept that the Korean teams do this and what about the euro/na teams? to you think it's that less expensive for a euro team to send guys to NASL? It's not just about the skill it's also about fairness.. NASL can't be blamed for SK being so far away from the states! There is a shedulle and teams make an effort or don't.. Anyways i accept that some koreans are out and will gladly accept puma, rain and anyothers that want to participate! | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
Will they? | ||
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epij
Germany42 Posts
That's not the reason why it's unfair. Please read the posts. The reason it was unfair was because of the scheduling and latency issues. That, in conjunction with the travel costs, and I can see how it's not worth it for many Koreans to participate. To use a real sports analogy, imagine if the Tour De France decided that all American riders had to endure x amount of extra sleep deprivation or use a 5 pound weight on their bikes. That wouldn't be very would it? And I'm 100% sure that people would complain. My point was: NASL has its rules, every competitor knows that rules. If you are not able to attend a tournament because of that rules, you can not expect to have them changed just for you. So the whole "it's unfair debate" is stupid. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On August 12 2011 22:18 epij wrote: So NASL should say: "Hey Korean Teams, here you have the free chance to win 100.000$ price money, since you are that good you probably will even get most of the top10 spots, and of course we pay all your travel expenses so that your risk not to win anything in a skill based competition is even less."? If you want even skill base competition, you wouldn't consistently schedule one group of players (the ones with the most latency) to play at 4am so the other 2 groups can play in the middle of the afternoon and evening. I do think the Koreans are asking for too much. However, I don't think they are wrong in their actions. They did get a very raw deal in season 1 and they are not under contract for season 2 so they have no obligation to play if their demands aren't met. It's on NASL to figure out a way to solve this mess because they're the ones that created it. If you read through the posts, money is not the only issue here. The time invested and the player treatment compared to the costs and r/o16 payout is making many teams decide not to go. On August 12 2011 22:20 epij wrote: Well, so we should build tournaments around special player/communities instead? This is a shift of paradigms that doesn't work out in the long run. No but at the same time, sports tournaments provide more or less equal playing conditions at the tournaments and you also have contracts which prevent players from packing up and leaving if they don't like it. Not to say that NASL wouldn't have had a contract but they didn't have one down at the time which means the Koreans had every right to leave if they felt they would not get what they wanted. Keep in mind, the Koreans and other foreign tournaments have NO issue with each other despite smaller pools @ IEM, scheduling conflicts @ Dreamhack, and not to mention they actually proactively work together with MLG. It's really just NASL that is having such issues at the moment. On August 12 2011 22:23 Sbrubbles wrote: I never said it had no effect whatsoever, I just said it was minimal. You didn't even click on the link, did you? I'm sorry, but I'm gonna take LiquidJinro's word over yours. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366 Also, it isn't trivial to play SC2 at 4 in the morning, but it was also unavoidable given the production format. That's BS in so many ways. Like I said before, I respect and love Jinro but he's playing at oGs which had the best connection to NA in terms of latency. The connection from houses like Prime and IM were much worse and you could see that in action when Prime was in the FXOpen series and kept getting lag out messages. And as Jinro said, static lag is not so bad, it's the lag spikes which were unpredictable and have a much greater effect on play. As for the second part of your reply, even if it's unavoidable to have someone play at 4am (which it actually wasn't), how is it unavoidable to have only the Koreans subject to this? Why not rotate playing times? The fact that they prioritize NA/EU -> Casters -> KR makes it kind of silly to claim that the scheduling was unavoidable. The casters don't even play in the matches, it makes no sense that their sleep and casting schedule should take priority over an actual players. | ||
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hesho89
Canada106 Posts
On August 12 2011 09:00 NASL.tv wrote: We have already begun paying back all security deposits of players who are no longer in Season 2. Our contract states that all prizes will be paid within 60 days of the end of Season 1. We are still within that time frame, and will be paying all prizes within that period! Artosis, HuK (who paid Boxer's deposit for S1), WeMadeFox, etc could all attest to the fact that we have and will pay our deposits back. is it just me.... or am i the only one that gets the sense that the prize money has NOT BEEN PAID YET?? That's what i get from reading this anyway. Why else would u mention that prizes will be paid within 60days of the end of the season? P.S. i have not read the entire thread yet. I'm only on page 38 so if this was discussed, please ignore this then since this thread is friggen HUGE!! | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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AdamBanks
Canada996 Posts
On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote: I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play. Will they? Yes, and will most likely take down the top prizes. | ||
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Hashmeister
Germany238 Posts
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Santiago4ever
Sweden299 Posts
If NASL wants to keep their format I understand that it would be difficult for koreans to participate since it's a longterm investment of time with poor scheduling for them. Change format or do your best to ensure the finest that EU/NA has will compete in it. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:09 FabledIntegral wrote: Wowow. Really? Man, that sucks. $2,000 stipend and they STILL say no? And it's not like it's unlikely they'll make the Ro8, that's even more money to pay it off, right? Guess players like PuMa could play though since he's staying in the U.S. and I presume EG would cover the costs? I don't know if Puma is in NASL or not, but if he wanted to be he could. It's not Koreans, only Korean teams, and he is on EG. | ||
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Motion
Germany183 Posts
I DON'T GET IT! Sounds like illogical business behavior to me, but i got only NASL's point of view so far ... | ||
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AndersR.
Denmark16 Posts
On August 12 2011 08:12 Jason54178 wrote: Sen is a Taiwanese player in an American team so he isn't affected I think. Fnatic is australian dude. on another note, it's really sad to see this kind of stuff happen, As was mentioned earlier it really seems the Koreans think too highly of themselves as if, they are so good that everyone should be happy to pay their trip. However it might just be that the financial state of Korean SCII just is that bad, sounds crazy though. | ||
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Shollef
Sweden40 Posts
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