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On August 12 2011 22:23 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:12 Liudo wrote:On August 12 2011 22:09 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:52 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 21:42 Sbrubbles wrote:On August 12 2011 21:38 CptGrackSparrow wrote:
Part of this is actually travel expenses, but I can't help but wonder what else is going on behind the scenes. Are the koreans afraid they'll lose more players to foreign teams (e.g. Puma)? Are they trying to protect their players from losing to a lower caliber of player because of latency?
Hmm, this is a good point. The managers and coaches could be wary of sending their players abroad. Personally I do think it's a travels expenses thing, but your point may be a big influence. Or it's because the teams don't feel properly compensated for unfair playing and travel conditions and would rather spend their time and energy on something else? Unfair playing? The lag issues were minimal at best. Here's a thread with Jinro himself commenting on this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366As for playing at a horrible time, it was unavoidable given the format of the tournament and the fact that there a people all over the world playing together. It's obvious someone in Ukraine and someone in Korea will be playing at a different times. Also, if they don't feel properly compensated by thousands of dollars of prize money, they are free to spend their time and energy on other things (noone here ever said otherwise). NASL isn't giving away money. If the event can't afford to bring in Koreans OR if the Koreans don't want to come for other reasons, there's nothing that can be done about it. I am sick of people saying that lag does not matter. Of course lag matters. Delay matters, and lag-spikes matter even more. Playing under constant delay is bad enough, and to some extent can even be accommodated by practicing in similar laggy conditions, but lag spikes are unpredictable and can never be accounted for. To say otherwise is ridiculous. And even as far as delay is concerned, it still has an effect on play. If you are competing with someone at a game where reaction speeds and precise timing matters, then it is quite absurd to suggest that a delay makes no difference. The fact that Koreans won despite horrendous playing conditions is a testament to their huge skill. And also you will have noticed that some Koreans have lost games playing in such online conditions that you would never expect them to lose playing in level playing conditions. . MC for example lost several games that I do not believe he would have lost otherwise. And do you think it is trivial to play SC2 at 4 in the morning? Really... I never said it had no effect whatsoever, I just said it was minimal. You didn't even click on the link, did you? I'm sorry, but I'm gonna take LiquidJinro's word over yours. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205366Also, it isn't trivial to play SC2 at 4 in the morning, but it was also unavoidable given the production format.
Jinro himself later admitted in another thread that while you can get used to latency to a certain extent, the disadvantage from it is undeniably still there. Why do you think Liquid decided not to participate in EGMC? Huk has refused to play KR->NA for a long time now and some players like Naniwa don't even play EU->NA. Idra, who moved back to the US a while ago, has always insisted that the bad latency from KR to NA really messes with how you play.
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On August 12 2011 22:58 Misery[BH] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote:
I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play.
Will they? that's like getting high school football when you wanted to watch NFL if anything i'm more disappointed in the foreign players who just plain suck compared to the highest tier players. if you're getting paid to play this game professionally and consider yourself an e-athlete then at least try to practice hard and train enough to match the skill of korean players. theres no enjoyment in watching players such as cruncher, tt1, catz, incontrol, qxc, dde, slush, haypro, bratok, goody, machine, socke, tyler, drewbie, painuser getting stomped by people who actually take things seriously. to be fair, some of those people have been practicing and adjusting practice regiments to get better, but others are just a joke. you can tune into catz's stream to watch him play use map settings games then catch him a week later in some online tourny getting stomped. they don't take it seriously and they're privileged to be as known as they are and they take advantage of the fact that they can make money from their stream even though they're complete and utter shit compared to the real competition. i hope to see foreigners step up this time when i tune into nasl season 2 and provide some entertaining, high skilled games.
TT1 who used to be #1 on ladder - InControL one of the great protoss's - QXC all killed team IM - DDE has seen much improvement - Bratok is Russian and one of the greatest terrans right now - Goody? really? he beat Nestea yeah he's bad - Socke is inconsistent yet one of the best out there when he's at his best - Painuser is much more of a caster than a player yet he is still a very good player. Please consider who you bash before you say something without facts.
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puma wins nasl2
ezpz now (unless sk pays MC to go)
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Screw it. I rather see a foreigner win I'm sick of Korean sweeps it's just not the same as seeing a hero like IdrA or ThorZain take it home. Interviews will be held in english with no language barrier, and there won't be some massive skill gap where we have to praise all these koreans for bringing 15 terran players to our tournaments in NA. Go NA go EU Win it.
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On August 12 2011 23:08 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:58 Misery[BH] wrote:On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote:
I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play.
Will they? that's like getting high school football when you wanted to watch NFL if anything i'm more disappointed in the foreign players who just plain suck compared to the highest tier players. if you're getting paid to play this game professionally and consider yourself an e-athlete then at least try to practice hard and train enough to match the skill of korean players. theres no enjoyment in watching players such as cruncher, tt1, catz, incontrol, qxc, dde, slush, haypro, bratok, goody, machine, socke, tyler, drewbie, painuser getting stomped by people who actually take things seriously. to be fair, some of those people have been practicing and adjusting practice regiments to get better, but others are just a joke. you can tune into catz's stream to watch him play use map settings games then catch him a week later in some online tourny getting stomped. they don't take it seriously and they're privileged to be as known as they are and they take advantage of the fact that they can make money from their stream even though they're complete and utter shit compared to the real competition. i hope to see foreigners step up this time when i tune into nasl season 2 and provide some entertaining, high skilled games. Ahile I agree with you at some extent, I don't think qxc, dde and socke isn't putting enough effort, if you watch their play on the last 2 months, you'll know what I'm talking about.
i'm fond of qxc, i think his experience in korea will definitely help him improve, and i'm sure a few of those players are exempt from my bias, but they sure didn't do too great in season 1. i'm looking forward to improvement on the home front and some exciting matches. the players have the opportunity to make it awesome without koreans
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On August 12 2011 23:10 asdfTT123 wrote:
what ever happened to this being NORTH AMERICAN starleague?
It takes place in North America. And it's not just North Americans and Koreans, but Europeans, and South Americans also compete in this tourney.
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It's simple math guys.
Teams have to pay 1700 to send their korean players to NASL
teams are given 1000 dollars by NASL. +
Players keep the 1000 dollars if after they reach the round of 16. =
teams can't afford to send their players to NASL
Team cost to go to America for each player=1700 dollars.
team compensation by NASL= 1000
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=1000
NASl cost to the Korean teams and players at the rd 16=2000
It's simple math.
Just adjust the values and make a new agreement with SC2con, a tri-lateral contract.
Team cost to go to america=1700
Team compensation by NASL=1700
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=300
NASL cost for Korean teams and Players to the RD of 16=2000
Likely hood that a Korean player gets past the round of 16= very high
what is not to like about this deal.
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On August 12 2011 23:12 Corona` wrote:
Screw it. I rather see a foreigner win I'm sick of Korean sweeps it's just not the same as seeing a hero like IdrA or ThorZain take it home. Interviews will be held in english with no language barrier, and there won't be some massive skill gap where we have to praise all these koreans for bringing 15 terran players to our tournaments in NA. Go NA go EU Win it.
Yes, a foreigner only tournament won by a foreigner, now that's a refreshing concept.
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This seems like a really shortsighted and dumb decision from the Korean teams. It's certainly understandable that they would be uncomfortable having to face some financial difficulty up front, but is there even a shred of doubt that Koreans would have taken the vast majority of the top of the prize pool?
More importantly, foreigners are making as much or even more money than Koreans because they are able to get their names out there and are becoming more recognizable to the rest of the world. Ultimately, Korea isn't that big a country, and more money is going to go to esports from all the other countries combined than in Korea alone. Why would they make a decision that could impact future earnings so adversely?
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On August 12 2011 22:58 Misery[BH] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote:
I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play.
Will they? that's like getting high school football when you wanted to watch NFL if anything i'm more disappointed in the foreign players who just plain suck compared to the highest tier players. if you're getting paid to play this game professionally and consider yourself an e-athlete then at least try to practice hard and train enough to match the skill of korean players. theres no enjoyment in watching players such as cruncher, tt1, catz, incontrol, qxc, dde, slush, haypro, bratok, goody, machine, socke, tyler, drewbie, painuser getting stomped by people who actually take things seriously. to be fair, some of those people have been practicing and adjusting practice regiments to get better, but others are just a joke. you can tune into catz's stream to watch him play use map settings games then catch him a week later in some online tourny getting stomped. they don't take it seriously and they're privileged to be as known as they are and they take advantage of the fact that they can make money from their stream even though they're complete and utter shit compared to the real competition. i hope to see foreigners step up this time when i tune into nasl season 2 and provide some entertaining, high skilled games.
LOL at least qxc, dde, socke and haypro are a part of the "highest tier players". Why would you call some people out if you don't know anything about them?
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On August 12 2011 23:11 Yuriegh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:58 Misery[BH] wrote:On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote:
I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play.
Will they? that's like getting high school football when you wanted to watch NFL if anything i'm more disappointed in the foreign players who just plain suck compared to the highest tier players. if you're getting paid to play this game professionally and consider yourself an e-athlete then at least try to practice hard and train enough to match the skill of korean players. theres no enjoyment in watching players such as cruncher, tt1, catz, incontrol, qxc, dde, slush, haypro, bratok, goody, machine, socke, tyler, drewbie, painuser getting stomped by people who actually take things seriously. to be fair, some of those people have been practicing and adjusting practice regiments to get better, but others are just a joke. you can tune into catz's stream to watch him play use map settings games then catch him a week later in some online tourny getting stomped. they don't take it seriously and they're privileged to be as known as they are and they take advantage of the fact that they can make money from their stream even though they're complete and utter shit compared to the real competition. i hope to see foreigners step up this time when i tune into nasl season 2 and provide some entertaining, high skilled games. TT1 who used to be #1 on ladder - InControL one of the great protoss's - QXC all killed team IM - DDE has seen much improvement - Bratok is Russian and one of the greatest terrans right now - Goody? really? he beat Nestea yeah he's bad - Socke is inconsistent yet one of the best out there when he's at his best - Painuser is much more of a caster than a player yet he is still a very good player. Please consider who you bash before you say something without facts.
I think you make just as many generalisations as the guy you're quoting. Inc as "one of the greatest protoss", he got beaten pretty badly in his MLG bracket, BRATOK is a great terran player sure, but with all the influx in Korean terrans doing so well can he truly be considered among the greatest? Painuser has changed races and will probably take time to compete the same level as the other players in the NASL. Maybe you should take some of your own advice, there is a great pool of talent out there but to say they are the cream of crop is more hyperbole than it is realistic.
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On August 12 2011 23:14 hithazel wrote:
This seems like a really shortsighted and dumb decision from the Korean teams. It's certainly understandable that they would be uncomfortable having to face some financial difficulty up front, but is there even a shred of doubt that Koreans would have taken the vast majority of the top of the prize pool?
More importantly, foreigners are making as much or even more money than Koreans because they are able to get their names out there and are becoming more recognizable to the rest of the world. Ultimately, Korea isn't that big a country, and more money is going to go to esports from all the other countries combined than in Korea alone. Why would they make a decision that could impact future earnings so adversely?
It's purely financial. teams will not spend that extra 700 dollars to send a Korean player abroad.
they will be losing that money. the solution is to re-work the contract and let the team get most of the NASL money for the rd 16. After the RD16, the Players can keep it. It's brilliant and simple
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its really suck for NASL. no koreans mean fewer viewers and less HD pass buyer. but players will be very happy. same prize, less competition. i wonder if the prize pool will be decreased next season
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On August 12 2011 23:12 Corona` wrote:
Screw it. I rather see a foreigner win I'm sick of Korean sweeps it's just not the same as seeing a hero like IdrA or ThorZain take it home. Interviews will be held in english with no language barrier, and there won't be some massive skill gap where we have to praise all these koreans for bringing 15 terran players to our tournaments in NA. Go NA go EU Win it.
Personally, I prefer to watch tournaments where all the best Starcraft players perform, which is why I don't bother with watching anything but the GSL and MLG. The more Koreans, the better.
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On August 12 2011 22:58 Misery[BH] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote:
I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play.
Will they? that's like getting high school football when you wanted to watch NFL if anything i'm more disappointed in the foreign players who just plain suck compared to the highest tier players. if you're getting paid to play this game professionally and consider yourself an e-athlete then at least try to practice hard and train enough to match the skill of korean players. theres no enjoyment in watching players such as cruncher, tt1, catz, incontrol, qxc, dde, slush, haypro, bratok, goody, machine, socke, tyler, drewbie, painuser getting stomped by people who actually take things seriously. to be fair, some of those people have been practicing and adjusting practice regiments to get better, but others are just a joke. you can tune into catz's stream to watch him play use map settings games then catch him a week later in some online tourny getting stomped. they don't take it seriously and they're privileged to be as known as they are and they take advantage of the fact that they can make money from their stream even though they're complete and utter shit compared to the real competition. i hope to see foreigners step up this time when i tune into nasl season 2 and provide some entertaining, high skilled games.
Thank you for posting this.
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On August 12 2011 23:12 chatuka wrote:
It's simple math guys.
Teams have to pay 1700 to send their korean players to NASL
teams are given 1000 dollars by NASL. +
Players keep the 1000 dollars if after they reach the round of 16. =
teams can't afford to send their players to NASL
Team cost to go to America for each player=1700 dollars.
team compensation by NASL= 1000
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=1000
NASl cost to the Korean teams and players at the rd 16=2000
It's simple math.
Just adjust the values and make a new agreement with SC2con, a tri-lateral contract.
Team cost to go to america=1700
Team compensation by NASL=1700
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=300
NASL cost for Korean teams and Players to the RD of 16=2000
Likely hood that a Korean player gets past the round of 16= very high
what is not to like about this deal.
For something this simple, there must be something we don't know/are overlooking.
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On August 12 2011 23:11 Yuriegh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:58 Misery[BH] wrote:On August 12 2011 22:45 DyEnasTy wrote:
I look foward to not seeing all the koreans. Itll be nice to see a foreigner have a better shot. I do hope though that the koreans that signed with foreign teams play.
Will they? that's like getting high school football when you wanted to watch NFL if anything i'm more disappointed in the foreign players who just plain suck compared to the highest tier players. if you're getting paid to play this game professionally and consider yourself an e-athlete then at least try to practice hard and train enough to match the skill of korean players. theres no enjoyment in watching players such as cruncher, tt1, catz, incontrol, qxc, dde, slush, haypro, bratok, goody, machine, socke, tyler, drewbie, painuser getting stomped by people who actually take things seriously. to be fair, some of those people have been practicing and adjusting practice regiments to get better, but others are just a joke. you can tune into catz's stream to watch him play use map settings games then catch him a week later in some online tourny getting stomped. they don't take it seriously and they're privileged to be as known as they are and they take advantage of the fact that they can make money from their stream even though they're complete and utter shit compared to the real competition. i hope to see foreigners step up this time when i tune into nasl season 2 and provide some entertaining, high skilled games. TT1 who used to be #1 on ladder - InControL one of the great protoss's - QXC all killed team IM - DDE has seen much improvement - Bratok is Russian and one of the greatest terrans right now - Goody? really? he beat Nestea yeah he's bad - Socke is inconsistent yet one of the best out there when he's at his best - Painuser is much more of a caster than a player yet he is still a very good player. Please consider who you bash before you say something without facts.
I don't care how good a player is on the ladder. TT1 actually did alright in NASL season 1 though.
InControL is garbage and has been for the past year. He has the potential and maybe the practice house will help him out, but as of the last year he's been just awful. Even his ladder w/l ratio is terrible compared to professional standards. There are casual gamers far better than him.
bratok is very, very questionable but is one of the better players in the few I mentioned.
Goody - Terran mech runs over koreans, they don't see that much. I believe that guy has the potential to revolutionize every terran match up, but he needs a lot of work.
Socke- inconsistency is a really bad trait. You can have some bad luck, not always pull amazing results, but inconsistent play isn't professional.
I know Painuser is more of a caster and has other things to do, but he shouldn't of even played in season 1.
I have considered who I've bashed, and I know the facts
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On August 12 2011 23:14 hithazel wrote:
This seems like a really shortsighted and dumb decision from the Korean teams. It's certainly understandable that they would be uncomfortable having to face some financial difficulty up front, but is there even a shred of doubt that Koreans would have taken the vast majority of the top of the prize pool?
Winnings go to the players not to the team....(well some % might go to the team)
Team pays for the player transportation and get little in return cause korean team sponsors arent interested in western market.
NASL requires that a player must be backed by a team. But for those teams sending players isn't profitable.
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On August 12 2011 22:59 ballasdontcry wrote:
And regarding the 4am thing, why are the Koreans the only ones that have to do it? For equality's sake, why aren't NA players being forced to play at 4am once in a while so Koreans can play at 5pm? Why do this especially when the qualifiers are casted from replays? Why not find a middle ground, say, 8pm NA server time/9am KR server time?
Both sides were looking out for their own good here, NASL isn't free to just point fingers and say the Koreans are unreasonable.
Wait, how would you ever develop this opinion? This is called the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Its only fair that NORTH AMERICANS get an advantage. All people who are not North American should calculate whether they are willing to put in the time to participate in this event. The way that the Koreans are acting is as if they are spoiled children who want something that they will never have. It baffles me that the Koreans would even participate in the qualifiers and fuck up the league if they knew from the beginning that their games would be at 4am and that they would have to pay partially for their trip the NA.
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The security deposit is also very very stupid imo and shouldnt be there.
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EPT
