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On August 12 2011 23:20 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:59 ballasdontcry wrote:
And regarding the 4am thing, why are the Koreans the only ones that have to do it? For equality's sake, why aren't NA players being forced to play at 4am once in a while so Koreans can play at 5pm? Why do this especially when the qualifiers are casted from replays? Why not find a middle ground, say, 8pm NA server time/9am KR server time?
Both sides were looking out for their own good here, NASL isn't free to just point fingers and say the Koreans are unreasonable. Wait, how would you ever develop this opinion? This is called the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Its only fair that NORTH AMERICANS get an advantage. All people who are not North American should calculate whether they are willing to put in the time to participate in this event. The way that the Koreans are acting is as if they are spoiled children who want something that they will never have. It baffles me that the Koreans would even participate in the qualifiers and fuck up the league if they knew from the beginning that their games would be at 4am and that they would have to pay partially for their trip the NA.
...Lol what? So I guess TSL should have every oGs/Liquid player seeded into playoff brackets? Do you honestly see how this would be so silly that I'm not even sure how to respond to this?
On August 12 2011 23:24 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:21 Kavas wrote:On August 12 2011 23:02 Radook wrote:On August 12 2011 22:55 Kavas wrote:On August 12 2011 22:46 epij wrote:
That's not the reason why it's unfair. Please read the posts. The reason it was unfair was because of the scheduling and latency issues. That, in conjunction with the travel costs, and I can see how it's not worth it for many Koreans to participate. To use a real sports analogy, imagine if the Tour De France decided that all American riders had to endure x amount of extra sleep deprivation or use a 5 pound weight on their bikes. That wouldn't be very would it? And I'm 100% sure that people would complain.
My point was: NASL has its rules, every competitor knows that rules. If you are not able to attend a tournament because of that rules, you can not expect to have them changed just for you. So the whole "it's unfair debate" is stupid. Correct. So the Koreans decided to pull out of it. Who decided to make a thread and a big deal of the whole thing? And mind you it wasn't neutral message like "We regret to inform our viewers that....". Instead it started with, ".....it is with our great displeasure...." and tried to portray the Koreans in a bad light as if they owed NASL something. Where did the OP try to portray the Korean Teams in bad light? Part of it is already in what you quoted. The language presentation is really aggressive and tries hard to portray NASL as the victim. But that's enough about that. I wish NASL all the best and hope fans enjoy whatever it has in store. i really disagree. they laid out the facts and just said the koreans found it unacceptable. for me atleast it doesnt put anyone in a bad light. the nasl did what they could to accomodate every player but the koreans, due to lack of funding, couldnt accept the terms. it doesnt say the koreans cba or thought nasl were fags, it says the koreans just dont have the funding. thats no ones fault
Think they could have emphasized the fact that the Koreans had every right to leave and that they had been negotiating for a while. At least it would get rid of all of these posters that somehow think paying $5-10 for qualifiers is the same as signing a contract for the actual tournament and acting like it's completely unthinkable how they could just leave after "agreeing" to everything.
On August 12 2011 23:25 AdamBanks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:20 Papulatus wrote:On August 12 2011 22:59 ballasdontcry wrote:
And regarding the 4am thing, why are the Koreans the only ones that have to do it? For equality's sake, why aren't NA players being forced to play at 4am once in a while so Koreans can play at 5pm? Why do this especially when the qualifiers are casted from replays? Why not find a middle ground, say, 8pm NA server time/9am KR server time?
Both sides were looking out for their own good here, NASL isn't free to just point fingers and say the Koreans are unreasonable. Wait, how would you ever develop this opinion? This is called the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. ts only fair that NORTH AMERICANS get an advantage. All people who are not North American should calculate whether they are willing to put in the time to participate in this event. The way that the Koreans are acting is as if they are spoiled children who want something that they will never have. It baffles me that the Koreans would even participate in the qualifiers and fuck up the league if they knew from the beginning that their games would be at 4am and that they would have to pay partially for their trip the NA. A....its only fair....that they get an advantage? that doesn't even...Think before posting plz How can anyone take the rest of ur post seriously after opening like that.
I second this...
On August 12 2011 23:30 Agh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:19 Perseverance wrote:On August 12 2011 23:12 chatuka wrote:
It's simple math guys.
Teams have to pay 1700 to send their korean players to NASL
teams are given 1000 dollars by NASL. +
Players keep the 1000 dollars if after they reach the round of 16. =
teams can't afford to send their players to NASL
Team cost to go to America for each player=1700 dollars.
team compensation by NASL= 1000
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=1000
NASl cost to the Korean teams and players at the rd 16=2000
It's simple math.
Just adjust the values and make a new agreement with SC2con, a tri-lateral contract.
Team cost to go to america=1700
Team compensation by NASL=1700
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=300
NASL cost for Korean teams and Players to the RD of 16=2000
Likely hood that a Korean player gets past the round of 16= very high
what is not to like about this deal.
For something this simple, there must be something we don't know/are overlooking. You're not factoring in the huge grind and time commitment involved. Not to mention pretty inflexible match scheduling. Also the deposit is a commitment, if for some reason you got off to a horrendous start and/or had personal issues arise you would have little to no motivation/reasoning to play but still somewhat feel forced to, which in turn just produces lackluster games if it does occur. The koreans / demands wants were perfectly within reason, especially combined with more recent notions that koreans are continuing to elevate their game while foreigners are stagnating and plateauing somewhat. Most likely the money that would have been gained via the stream/content for people wanting to see the Koreans play would have easily leveled out any travel compensation they requested. Kind of sad really.
Good post. Glad to see people taking the Korean perspective into account as well. I personally think they might have asked for too much but it's within their right to bargain hard and leave the table if demands aren't met. And yes, regardless of all that, NASL is still responsible for getting this show going.
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On August 12 2011 23:20 Papulatus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:59 ballasdontcry wrote:
And regarding the 4am thing, why are the Koreans the only ones that have to do it? For equality's sake, why aren't NA players being forced to play at 4am once in a while so Koreans can play at 5pm? Why do this especially when the qualifiers are casted from replays? Why not find a middle ground, say, 8pm NA server time/9am KR server time?
Both sides were looking out for their own good here, NASL isn't free to just point fingers and say the Koreans are unreasonable. Wait, how would you ever develop this opinion? This is called the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. Its only fair that NORTH AMERICANS get an advantage. All people who are not North American should calculate whether they are willing to put in the time to participate in this event. The way that the Koreans are acting is as if they are spoiled children who want something that they will never have. It baffles me that the Koreans would even participate in the qualifiers and fuck up the league if they knew from the beginning that their games would be at 4am and that they would have to pay partially for their trip the NA.
Do you have any idea wtf you just said?
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On August 12 2011 23:35 Timestreamer wrote:
I seriously don't understand what's the problem here - NASL decided not to pay for full travel expenses - the Korean teams decided it's not worth it. Do these teams usually get full funding for every MLG they attend?
they pretty much do, but 2k would be plenty to cover 5 days here. (1.2k for plane ticket leaves 800 for hotel/food for 5 days?) Let's be perfectly honest koreans like to play in our tournaments and win our prizes, but they don't want their players leaving for foreign teams. They want a one way street.
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On August 12 2011 23:38 XazXio wrote:
i think i'd rather have this though, its called NASL north american star league, shouldnt it mostly be of north americans and not koreans?
no, i don't think that's what they were going for even if they named it "North American Starleague"
I'm pretty sure that's just because it's a Starleague in North America.
Why would you want to isolate competition to the least skilled geographic section of the world?
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Tripper,
I like your passion for fair play and for people. In a just world, you would probably be right regarding adjusting practice schedules to be fair to Koreans. But Not everything is black and white my young lad. the world is full of risks and benefits. Anybody wise enough and old enough will be able to tell you that the world is full of imperfect scenarios. NASL needed their schedules to be at that specific date. I think that they are fully righteous in scheduling their dates of games, since they are paying out the cash. IF the Koreans don't like the NASL deal, they don't have to play it. The Koreans lose nothing, and NASL continues on without the presence of Korean players.
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i kind of like this, 5 Koreans more than enough for me. Eu/na players can show really great games as well.
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On August 12 2011 23:32 Keone wrote:
There is so much hatred and bias in this thread it makes me sick to my stomach. For a community that prides itself on its internationalism and equality...
you all are disgusting.
Re-read your posts, half of them are blatantly racist. Stop grouping things into "Koreans" vs "us". It's a small number of people who made the decisions on behalf of ALL the players in Korea. You think the Korean players didn't want to go? They're fuckin DYING to go. NASL is nothing but a great opportunity to most of them.
I'm waiting on the other side of the story before I make judgments. Unlike you idiots who throw out and slander just because NASL has strong TL affiliations.
I don't think "Koreans" is being used here to represent the whole nationality, but rather as a shorthand for Korean players and their managers.
And I agree, I think there are many players that have been adversely affected by this decision.
I don't think it's as black adn white as people are making it with the claims, "Well NASL is bad hours, well NASL is not on Korean server!"
I think Xeris said both things have been changed for season 2, not that it would matter as most Korean players seemed to want to play regardless. Many were brand new to NASL.
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It does not sound like anyone did anything wrong here.
There were contracts signed for season one. Both parties followed through.
For season two the contracts had not been signed as negotiations were ongoing.
Ultimately these negotiations failed.
As someone who watched season one I am very sad that so many good players will not be participating, but something had to be done about noshows so I approve of the higher deposit to ensure players actually show up.
Also, given that Koreans take home the vast majority of the prize money, it seems strange that they of all people are boycotting. Europeans have it way worse since they have a trip that is nearly as long and collect far less prize money.
My suspicion is that the Koreans will still find a way to send enough people to nearly ensure a win and that way still collect the top few prizes. Lets see if MC, SC, and Nada still play anyway.
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On August 12 2011 23:42 kYem wrote:
i kind of like this, 5 Koreans more than enough for me. Eu/na players can show really great games as well.
Do you not enjoy watching Koreans play or something? Generally, they're better than North American players and having a global participation of the highest skilled competitors is usually a more interesting spectacle than just a tournament for a less talented geographic region. It also promotes more competition, raising the skill cap to be a professional player, and general growth to e-sports.
This is disregarding the whole scenario, just curious as to why you would have this opinion and would find this preferable
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On August 12 2011 23:40 hithazel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:32 Keone wrote:
There is so much hatred and bias in this thread it makes me sick to my stomach. For a community that prides itself on its internationalism and equality...
you all are disgusting.
Re-read your posts, half of them are blatantly racist. Stop grouping things into "Koreans" vs "us". It's a small number of people who made the decisions on behalf of ALL the players in Korea. You think the Korean players didn't want to go? They're fuckin DYING to go. NASL is nothing but a great opportunity to most of them.
I'm waiting on the other side of the story before I make judgements. Unlike you idiots who throw out and slander just because NASL has strong TL affiliations. How is it racist to mention that the other teams are Korean- that's a pretty obvious fact. Based on the information here, how can you possibly say the Korean teams made the right decision by not coming here, dominating NASL, taking the money, and going home? Sure, some other facts could possibly come out later, but here are the facts right now: 1. NASL made them a travel offer, which they accepted- $1K per person. 2. Near the deadline, they decided the offer was no longer enough and demanded more. 3. NASL doubled the original offer- something that they did for no NA or EU team, and 4. They were still rejected and because of the timing there is no way to try to work out any further deal. Which of those facts are in dispute? The cost of a plane ticket is $1200, and the cost of lodging would also be covered, so it's not as though they would be losing money getting here. It's 100% profit after that, and it seems like this is some dodgy management issue more than it is and player's fault.
#1 is not a fact.
Koreans did not accept that condition.
#3 is wrong as well.
NASL implemented (or offered to) for every player who makes it to grand final, not just for Koreans.
NASL offered to provide $1000 for travel fee/accommodation, and that doesn't even cover the plane ticket in whole. Players have to cover the deficit + pay for accommodation, food, etc.
Also I'd like to let everyone know that SC2CS stepped in, because players weren't necessarily covering their travel expense with their own money. Most likely, it was covered by their team, so their team definitely did have a say in the decision.
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On August 12 2011 23:25 AdamBanks wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:20 Papulatus wrote:On August 12 2011 22:59 ballasdontcry wrote:
And regarding the 4am thing, why are the Koreans the only ones that have to do it? For equality's sake, why aren't NA players being forced to play at 4am once in a while so Koreans can play at 5pm? Why do this especially when the qualifiers are casted from replays? Why not find a middle ground, say, 8pm NA server time/9am KR server time?
Both sides were looking out for their own good here, NASL isn't free to just point fingers and say the Koreans are unreasonable. Wait, how would you ever develop this opinion? This is called the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. ts only fair that NORTH AMERICANS get an advantage. All people who are not North American should calculate whether they are willing to put in the time to participate in this event. The way that the Koreans are acting is as if they are spoiled children who want something that they will never have. It baffles me that the Koreans would even participate in the qualifiers and fuck up the league if they knew from the beginning that their games would be at 4am and that they would have to pay partially for their trip the NA. A....its only fair....that they get an advantage? that doesn't even...Think before posting plz How can anyone take the rest of ur post seriously after opening like that.
While his post might not have meant it, the way I read it it's partly correct.
It's a NA based league, of course people in NA will get more comfort in it. It's better for their time zone and smaller traveling expenses, and it fits well with the production they chose. While it's unfortunate for koreans that they're in a bad time zone, it's up to them to choose if they want to play in that league or not.
Let's say that a player complained that Dreamhack was in Sweden, or that it was a LAN. Should Dreamhack start having their tournament in other countries or have online players as well? Or what about requiring people to be in Korea or even play at bad NA time zones for GSL? Should GOM change their league to an online league with random times to accommodate every single player in the world?
No, that would be silly. The tournament organizers aren't catering to a specific server, they're making stuff better for themselves. Just like if there was an online international KRSL, it would most likely follow normal Korean time zones, and it would be up to international players to decide if they wanted to play or not.
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Why couldn't Nada and MC make it over with SK? I thought SK was paying for their international travel and such?
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On August 12 2011 23:40 ronpaul012 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:35 Timestreamer wrote:
I seriously don't understand what's the problem here - NASL decided not to pay for full travel expenses - the Korean teams decided it's not worth it. Do these teams usually get full funding for every MLG they attend? they pretty much do, but 2k would be plenty to cover 5 days here. (1.2k for plane ticket leaves 800 for hotel/food for 5 days?) Let's be perfectly honest koreans like to play in our tournaments and win our prizes, but they don't want their players leaving for foreign teams. They want a one way street.
Yes 2k would be plenty.. I'd imagine, except that NASL's providing them with 1k, not 2k.
With that said, I agree with some of you when you say that 5 Koreans in the tournament is suffice of a number. While the only reason NASL season 2 was going to have such great number of Koreans is simply due to the fact that they have the skill to pass through the qualifying rounds, it is a western tournament and I'd like to see them retain that 'westerness' (very subjective and personal opinion)
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On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:30 Agh wrote:On August 12 2011 23:19 Perseverance wrote:On August 12 2011 23:12 chatuka wrote:
It's simple math guys.
Teams have to pay 1700 to send their korean players to NASL
teams are given 1000 dollars by NASL. +
Players keep the 1000 dollars if after they reach the round of 16. =
teams can't afford to send their players to NASL
Team cost to go to America for each player=1700 dollars.
team compensation by NASL= 1000
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=1000
NASl cost to the Korean teams and players at the rd 16=2000
It's simple math.
Just adjust the values and make a new agreement with SC2con, a tri-lateral contract.
Team cost to go to america=1700
Team compensation by NASL=1700
Player compensation by NASL for rd 16=300
NASL cost for Korean teams and Players to the RD of 16=2000
Likely hood that a Korean player gets past the round of 16= very high
what is not to like about this deal.
For something this simple, there must be something we don't know/are overlooking. You're not factoring in the huge grind and time commitment involved. Not to mention pretty inflexible match scheduling. Also the deposit is a commitment, if for some reason you got off to a horrendous start and/or had personal issues arise you would have little to no motivation/reasoning to play but still somewhat feel forced to, which in turn just produces lackluster games if it does occur. The koreans / demands wants were perfectly within reason, especially combined with more recent notions that koreans are continuing to elevate their game while foreigners are stagnating and plateauing somewhat. Most likely the money that would have been gained via the stream/content for people wanting to see the Koreans play would have easily leveled out any travel compensation they requested. Kind of sad really. Dude, let the Korean player decide the risks and rewards, Not the team. The Team is there to make money off of the players, that really is the bottom line. And because of this bottom line NASl will only give the team 1000 dollars for travel expenses. Instead of the 1700 dollars that each Korean team needs to send their respective players. What is up with you judging what is right and wrong for the KOrean player. If I was somebody like MVP, I would JUMP at the opportunity to win 40K dollars. 1700 to the team but 38300 to myself.
That's not really how the team works in Korea and SC2con/SC2pa are organizations made up of coaches, key figures and members like the team captain. So yes, player input goes into it as well.
And I don't know if I would jump at it if I was MVP. He has issues with lag and scheduling for TSL/NASL last time and I don't know if he would consider it as worthwhile an expenditure of his time as more prep for GSL/MLG/Other foreign invites.
On August 12 2011 23:35 Timestreamer wrote:
I seriously don't understand what's the problem here - NASL decided not to pay for full travel expenses - the Korean teams decided it's not worth it. Do these teams usually get full funding for every MLG they attend?
Actually for the most part...yes. But that's because MLG actually went and partnered with GOM to create a joint Seeding/Exchange program for players between both leagues.
On August 12 2011 23:37 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 19:57 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 19:52 jmbthirteen wrote:
If you don't want to commit or aren't sure about about committing to something you shouldn't do it. You don't fucking ask a girl to marry you and then break it off because you suddenly decide you don't want to commit. And if you do, its a dick move.
FXOBoss is saying there is more to this. I am eager to hear what it is. I think this is shitty for all sides, NASL, Korean teams, players and fans. This is more like, you start getting interested in a girl, girl asks you to marry, you're not ready so you don't go all in. Qualifiers carry next to no commitment. I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted. I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements. The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall. If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans.
You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on.
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On August 12 2011 23:18 asperger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:12 Corona` wrote:
Screw it. I rather see a foreigner win I'm sick of Korean sweeps it's just not the same as seeing a hero like IdrA or ThorZain take it home. Interviews will be held in english with no language barrier, and there won't be some massive skill gap where we have to praise all these koreans for bringing 15 terran players to our tournaments in NA. Go NA go EU Win it. Personally, I prefer to watch tournaments where all the best Starcraft players perform, which is why I don't bother with watching anything but the GSL and MLG. The more Koreans, the better.
lol then go watch brood war if you want to see "the best" Starcraft players perform. As for the best SC2 players, I still think that there are many more of them our there that are unknown at this point. How many of you can honestly say you knew about PuMa before the NASL? But, add WCG korea to your list with GSL and MLG because that is when we get to see a lot of unknowns shine (hopefully). But, I think foreigners should have some events without Korean attendance just like Korea has events without foreign attendance. So, people should stop being bias and acting like Koreans are holy angels just because they're good at a video game.
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On August 12 2011 23:49 Lobo2me wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:25 AdamBanks wrote:On August 12 2011 23:20 Papulatus wrote:On August 12 2011 22:59 ballasdontcry wrote:
And regarding the 4am thing, why are the Koreans the only ones that have to do it? For equality's sake, why aren't NA players being forced to play at 4am once in a while so Koreans can play at 5pm? Why do this especially when the qualifiers are casted from replays? Why not find a middle ground, say, 8pm NA server time/9am KR server time?
Both sides were looking out for their own good here, NASL isn't free to just point fingers and say the Koreans are unreasonable. Wait, how would you ever develop this opinion? This is called the NORTH AMERICAN Star League. ts only fair that NORTH AMERICANS get an advantage. All people who are not North American should calculate whether they are willing to put in the time to participate in this event. The way that the Koreans are acting is as if they are spoiled children who want something that they will never have. It baffles me that the Koreans would even participate in the qualifiers and fuck up the league if they knew from the beginning that their games would be at 4am and that they would have to pay partially for their trip the NA. A....its only fair....that they get an advantage? that doesn't even...Think before posting plz How can anyone take the rest of ur post seriously after opening like that. While his post might not have meant it, the way I read it it's partly correct. It's a NA based league, of course people in NA will get more comfort in it. It's better for their time zone and smaller traveling expenses, and it fits well with the production they chose. While it's unfortunate for koreans that they're in a bad time zone, it's up to them to choose if they want to play in that league or not. Let's say that a player complained that Dreamhack was in Sweden, or that it was a LAN. Should Dreamhack start having their tournament in other countries or have online players as well? Or what about requiring people to be in Korea or even play at bad NA time zones for GSL? Should GOM change their league to an online league with random times to accommodate every single player in the world? No, that would be silly. The tournament organizers aren't catering to a specific server, they're making stuff better for themselves. Just like if there was an online international KRSL, it would most likely follow normal Korean time zones, and it would be up to international players to decide if they wanted to play or not.
When you put that in such context, I do have to agree with you.
But at the same time though, Koreans weren't complaining to have NASL change game time or server, etc, they were simply pointing out that such conditions makes it more difficult for them to participate.
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On August 12 2011 23:49 talismania wrote:
Why couldn't Nada and MC make it over with SK? I thought SK was paying for their international travel and such?
This. The whole point of SK's deal was to bring Nada/MC over to international events and compete under the SK brand. Now SC2 committee is blocking SK from doing so?
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On August 12 2011 23:38 XazXio wrote:
i think i'd rather have this though, its called NASL north american star league, shouldnt it mostly be of north americans and not koreans?
So, you want to kick out Morrow, TLO, Fenix, WhiteRa, Sjow, Darkforce, Moman, Moonglade, Strelok, HasuObs, Bratok, Mana, Socke, Thorzain, and Nightend. Yeah, go right on ahead.
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On August 13 2011 00:01 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:38 XazXio wrote:
i think i'd rather have this though, its called NASL north american star league, shouldnt it mostly be of north americans and not koreans? So, you want to kick out Morrow, TLO, Fenix, WhiteRa, Sjow, Darkforce, Moman, Moonglade, Strelok, HasuObs, Bratok, Mana, Socke, Thorzain, and Nightend. Yeah, go right on ahead.
People like him have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and have absolutely no competitive spirit. I was in a bit of disbelief when he even asked that question.
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EPT
