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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:01 Sein wrote: So, you want to kick out Morrow, TLO, Fenix, WhiteRa, Sjow, Darkforce, Moman, Moonglade, Strelok, HasuObs, Bratok, Mana, Socke, Thorzain, and Nightend. Yeah, go right on ahead. NAESL now that's more like it. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Apart from contractual obligations which I believe some Korean SC2 players are under, what's stopping most Korean players from just leaving their teams to get picked up by a foreign team that would be willing to handle any travel or visa issues they may have in order to play in NA/EU events or possibly live/train in a foreign team house? Also consider the fact that there are only six real opportunities for a professional Korean player to make money, those being:
Basically, only Blizzard sactioned events have really occured in Korea so far. I do think Blizzard can be partially blamed for this as they pretty much denied OnGameNet, KeSPA and MBCGame from any broadcasting rights. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On August 12 2011 23:30 Agh wrote: You're not factoring in the huge grind and time commitment involved. Not to mention pretty inflexible match scheduling. Also the deposit is a commitment, if for some reason you got off to a horrendous start and/or had personal issues arise you would have little to no motivation/reasoning to play but still somewhat feel forced to, which in turn just produces lackluster games if it does occur. The koreans / demands wants were perfectly within reason, especially combined with more recent notions that koreans are continuing to elevate their game while foreigners are stagnating and plateauing somewhat. Most likely the money that would have been gained via the stream/content for people wanting to see the Koreans play would have easily leveled out any travel compensation they requested. Kind of sad really. being top 5 meant qualification for season 2, NASL gave you more than a monetary incentive to try hard all season long. and if you're the kind of player who stops trying when there isnt much hope of getting first place then you arent doing a job representing your sponsors. saying that going 0-3 at the start would make you emo quit just makes you come across as an entitled little brat and is probably the reason koreans are dominating the scene right now On August 13 2011 00:03 Clbull wrote: I fear a players revolt from the Korean SC2 scene. Think about it this way, many Korean players probably do want to compete in foreign events such as NASL, MLG, Dreamhack etc and are simply unable to because their teams under the authority of SC2Con will not let them. Apart from contractual obligations which I believe some Korean SC2 players are under, what's stopping most Korean players from just leaving their teams to get picked up by a foreign team that would be willing to handle any travel or visa issues they may have in order to play in NA/EU events? Also consider the fact that there are only five real opportunities for a Korean player to make money, those being:
Basically, only Blizzard sactioned events have really occured in Korea so far. I do think Blizzard can be partially blamed for this as they pretty much denied OnGameNet, KeSPA and MBCGame from any broadcasting rights. i havent seen a single thing out of the korean sc2 conference saying they dislike foreign events, the reasoning given by the nasl is a lack of funding in the korean scene, which isnt helped if they arent willing to bite the bullet at get over seas. judging by the season 1 results any player able to make it to the finals and not deal with main season lag would do very well, so contracting the player to atleast refund the teams from his winnings wouldnt be that out of line, based on the situation the teams are finding themselves in. | ||
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VillageBC
322 Posts
On August 12 2011 23:46 Misery[BH] wrote: Do you not enjoy watching Koreans play or something? Generally, they're better than North American players and having a global participation of the highest skilled competitors is usually a more interesting spectacle than just a tournament for a less talented geographic region. It also promotes more competition, raising the skill cap to be a professional player, and general growth to e-sports. This is disregarding the whole scenario, just curious as to why you would have this opinion and would find this preferable Not directed at me, but I'll take a stab at it. For highest level of play, I watch the GSL/GSTL and recently discovered icCup.tv(it's awesome). It's good, it's competitive and makes for interesting games. When you take 5 Koreans, throw them in MLG against a bunch of NA/EU players. They are involved in a bunch of boring, one side stomps of those players and a few interesting games when they run into each other. I prefer having a general level playing field of skill competing against each other. Unless it's one of my favourite Koreans doing the nerd crushing. =) It's like taking an NHL team and putting them against AHL teams. Sure some of the AHL players are extremely good and compete with NHL players. But by and large it's going to be uninteresting one sided roflstomps. The best games are always the close, tension filled games. I don't mind NA or EU or both having their own pool to play in. In fact, I actually want that to some extend. Kind of like the EPS(?) something that provide a decent tournament and winnings for NA/EU players to begin to hone their skills. Not saying NASL is the league for that, but if that's what it becomes so be it. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:02 Misery[BH] wrote: People like him have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and have absolutely no competitive spirit. I was in a bit of disbelief when he even asked that question. Just because he thinks the tournament should consist of NA players due to the name of the tourney doesn't mean that it will lack competitiveness. With a prize pool that big how could it not be competitive? | ||
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Tourniquett
United States5 Posts
The moral of the story? Korean business practices are DIRTY!!!! (maybe they've learned from us? =P) | ||
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stk01001
United States786 Posts
unfortunately I'm not one of them =( | ||
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NoLimit028
23 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
On August 12 2011 23:56 BlazeFury01 wrote: lol then go watch brood war if you want to see "the best" Starcraft players perform. As for the best SC2 players, I still think that there are many more of them our there that are unknown at this point. How many of you can honestly say you knew about PuMa before the NASL? But, add WCG korea to your list with GSL and MLG because that is when we get to see a lot of unknowns shine (hopefully). But, I think foreigners should have some events without Korean attendance just like Korea has events without foreign attendance. So, people should stop being bias and acting like Koreans are holy angels just because they're good at a video game. What... are you talking about? All he said is he wants to see the best. Which means the GSL. He never acted like they are 'holy angels'. Korea has events without foreign attendance because foreigners can't qualify for them. It's a totally different situation. The skill gap between Koreans and foreigners has gotten bigger and bigger since beta and segregating foreigners from Koreans isn't going to help. | ||
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cdhstarbuck
Austria84 Posts
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mythandier
United States828 Posts
I think with all the kinks that got worked out from Season 1 that Season 2 will be much better all around. The fact that some of the best players in the world aren't going to attend doesn't really effect me at all since...some of the best players in the world will still be here. | ||
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Misery[BH]
United States29 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:05 VillageBC wrote: Not directed at me, but I'll take a stab at it. For highest level of play, I watch the GSL/GSTL and recently discovered icCup.tv(it's awesome). It's good, it's competitive and makes for interesting games. When you take 5 Koreans, throw them in MLG against a bunch of NA/EU players. They are involved in a bunch of boring, one side stomps of those players and a few interesting games when they run into each other. I prefer having a general level playing field of skill competing against each other. Unless it's one of my favourite Koreans doing the nerd crushing. =) It's like taking an NHL team and putting them against AHL teams. Sure some of the AHL players are extremely good and compete with NHL players. But by and large it's going to be uninteresting one sided roflstomps. The best games are always the close, tension filled games. I don't mind NA or EU or both having their own pool to play in. In fact, I actually want that to some extend. Kind of like the EPS(?) something that provide a decent tournament and winnings for NA/EU players to begin to hone their skills. Not saying NASL is the league for that, but if that's what it becomes so be it. I totally agree with your opinion on the skill differential making some games boring, however in the end, it usually results in the best players pitted against each other. I like the idea of competition, and I believe that North American players can easily be on par with Koreans if they had the same dedication and passion. Until they can do that, I'm personally content with seeing the stomping until we get to an awesome finals/semi finals. I think in the end it will only promote the people getting stomped to either improve, or get out. I don't want to watch Starcraft games forever knowing that we (NA/EU) have little to no players on par with Koreans, I want to see them improve and be able to compete against them. Globally involved tournaments like NASL season 1 often draw more interest from everyone as well, making it much more profitable financially and it will continue to grow. It's a shame things didn't work out this season. We're either going to see a tournament of fairly equal skill distribution, or some foreign players are going to get a chance to shine and show that they have improved, because there are still some very formidable Koreans left. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On August 12 2011 23:40 hithazel wrote: How is it racist to mention that the other teams are Korean- that's a pretty obvious fact. Based on the information here, how can you possibly say the Korean teams made the right decision by not coming here, dominating NASL, taking the money, and going home? Sure, some other facts could possibly come out later, but here are the facts right now: 1. NASL made them a travel offer, which they accepted- $1K per person. 2. Near the deadline, they decided the offer was no longer enough and demanded more. 3. NASL doubled the original offer- something that they did for no NA or EU team, and 4. They were still rejected and because of the timing there is no way to try to work out any further deal. Which of those facts are in dispute? The cost of a plane ticket is $1200, and the cost of lodging would also be covered, so it's not as though they would be losing money getting here. It's 100% profit after that, and it seems like this is some dodgy management issue more than it is and player's fault. 1.) They never accepted. It was in negotiations. Read the post. 2.) Yes, that's the point of negotiations. You keep negotiating till time runs out or you get what you want or leave. 3.) NASL doubled their original offer for r/o16. All players were to get $1000 for making it that far. Travel stipend increased to $1000. Read the post. 4.) Wrong again. NASL was told by the Koreans during preparation for Season 2 that there were demands and if they were not met, they may pull out. NASL gambled on not needing a contingency and went ahead and continued to set up the tournament without contracts for the Koreans while negotiating. The gambled failed, that's always a risk with negotiations, sometimes things just don't work out. The aftermath is that they never bothered with a contingency. That's not the fault of the Koreans. Do I need to continue? On August 12 2011 23:41 chatuka wrote: Tripper, I like your passion for fair play and for people. In a just world, you would probably be right regarding adjusting practice schedules to be fair to Koreans. But Not everything is black and white my young lad. the world is full of risks and benefits. Anybody wise enough and old enough will be able to tell you that the world is full of imperfect scenarios. NASL needed their schedules to be at that specific date. I think that they are fully righteous in scheduling their dates of games, since they are paying out the cash. IF the Koreans don't like the NASL deal, they don't have to play it. The Koreans lose nothing, and NASL continues on without the presence of Korean players. By the same token, anybody should be able to tell you that because things like this happen and there was no obligation to play, the Koreans are not in the wrong. But since NASL is organizing the event, 100% of the responsibility is still on them to get the event going. As previously stated, it would be wrong for NASL to put the blame on the Koreans when the current fiasco is basically them not preparing a contingency when they should have. On August 12 2011 23:43 meadbert wrote: It does not sound like anyone did anything wrong here. There were contracts signed for season one. Both parties followed through. For season two the contracts had not been signed as negotiations were ongoing. Ultimately these negotiations failed. As someone who watched season one I am very sad that so many good players will not be participating, but something had to be done about noshows so I approve of the higher deposit to ensure players actually show up. Also, given that Koreans take home the vast majority of the prize money, it seems strange that they of all people are boycotting. Europeans have it way worse since they have a trip that is nearly as long and collect far less prize money. My suspicion is that the Koreans will still find a way to send enough people to nearly ensure a win and that way still collect the top few prizes. Lets see if MC, SC, and Nada still play anyway. Europeans play with less lag, get to play at 10pm instead of 4am, their trip costs like 25-30% less than Koreans, and the only people they can blame for not winning more money is themselves for not being at the same level. Why should they complain? I'm sorry if this was a bit blunt but I can't see any reason I would complain about the scheduling as a European. On August 12 2011 23:49 Lobo2me wrote: While his post might not have meant it, the way I read it it's partly correct. It's a NA based league, of course people in NA will get more comfort in it. It's better for their time zone and smaller traveling expenses, and it fits well with the production they chose. While it's unfortunate for koreans that they're in a bad time zone, it's up to them to choose if they want to play in that league or not. Let's say that a player complained that Dreamhack was in Sweden, or that it was a LAN. Should Dreamhack start having their tournament in other countries or have online players as well? Or what about requiring people to be in Korea or even play at bad NA time zones for GSL? Should GOM change their league to an online league with random times to accommodate every single player in the world? No, that would be silly. The tournament organizers aren't catering to a specific server, they're making stuff better for themselves. Just like if there was an online international KRSL, it would most likely follow normal Korean time zones, and it would be up to international players to decide if they wanted to play or not. ...This entire argument is silly. GSL is a LAN. Dreamhack is a LAN. People prefer LANs for the very reason that you get to avoid the time zone and latency BS. You show up a day or two early and you're completely fine for your matches. The NASL was not formed to create a league that would handicap foreigners. It was formed to be the American answer to GSL, where we could have the best players playing in an NA tournament for the best prize. And in any case, your argument further makes no sense because NASL accommodates EU players and even the casters more than the KR players. Does the Tour de France require foreigners to arrive the day of the race or use heavier bikes? The tournament is supposed to have a level playing field. I honestly can't believe I'm reading comments suggesting otherwise. As for GSL, the foreigners are given a play to stay, organized meets with other teams for practice and acclimation, and that's done for the duration of their stay. Sounds like they sure are going out of their way to ignore the foreigners right? | ||
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Misery[BH]
United States29 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:06 BlazeFury01 wrote: Just because he thinks the tournament should consist of NA players due to the name of the tourney doesn't mean that it will lack competitiveness. With a prize pool that big how could it not be competitive? I can't deny that it won't be competitive, but without the majority of the highest tier players it isn't the kind of competition some people are interested in. I'm still going to give it a chance and hope that some players have dramatically improved. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:06 oxxo wrote: What... are you talking about? All he said is he wants to see the best. Which means the GSL. He never acted like they are 'holy angels'. Korea has events without foreign attendance because foreigners can't qualify for them. It's a totally different situation. The skill gap between Koreans and foreigners has gotten bigger and bigger since beta and segregating foreigners from Koreans isn't going to help. I disagree with BlazeFury01 tbh. Brood War is an almost entirely different game to Starcraft II. The mechanics are somewhat different, the controls are very different, the AI is vastly different and unit compositions are almost entirely different. Some bad Brood War players have found great success in Starcraft II. Look at ZergBong a.k.a. NesTea for example. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:06 oxxo wrote: What... are you talking about? All he said is he wants to see the best. Which means the GSL. He never acted like they are 'holy angels'. Korea has events without foreign attendance because foreigners can't qualify for them. It's a totally different situation. The skill gap between Koreans and foreigners has gotten bigger and bigger since beta and segregating foreigners from Koreans isn't going to help. I did not say "he" specifically, I said "people" in regards to the holy angels comment because there is a ton of bias business when the word "korean" is brought up in SC. And he said the best "STARCRAFT players" and truthfully, the best STARCRAFT players are on brood war. I do believe in equal opportunity, but I think NA and Europe should "some" tournaments excluding korean attendence. What's so wrong with that? The whole purpose of SC is competitiveness and entertainment. Just because players aren't korean or aren't "the best" does not mean the games played will be any less competitive or entertaining. | ||
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Apoo
413 Posts
But im happy for Idra, now he can win the NASL! Gogo Idra! | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
You mean NSAEOTSL? Might as well call it "Non-Korean Star League" or NKSL. | ||
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shappens
Korea (South)137 Posts
Though I gave up going deeper into this thread after some 10 pages, I wish good luck to NASL S2, cuz enjoyed a lot during S1. ^ ^ | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:14 Clbull wrote: I disagree with BlazeFury01 tbh. Brood War is an almost entirely different game to Starcraft II. The mechanics are somewhat different, the controls are very different, the AI is vastly different and unit compositions are almost entirely different. Some bad Brood War players have found great success in Starcraft II. Look at ZergBong a.k.a. NesTea for example. Exactly, which is why the best SC players are on brood war which proves my point lol The players "currently on brood war" have superior mechanics and superior control which is why they are able to play the game. SC2 is much easier in keyboard control, macroing and microing compared to SC1. | ||
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