EPTI'll still be sure to check you guys out, and attend the Finals.
(As long as they are in So Cal
)Korean teams withdraw from NASL - Page 137
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LovE-
United States1963 Posts
I'll still be sure to check you guys out, and attend the Finals. (As long as they are in So Cal ) | ||
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote: And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. | ||
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Guran
Sweden33 Posts
Really sad for nasl and us the viewers  | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:26 Misery[BH] wrote: SC2 is also like 12 years younger than Broodwar and has yet to develop quite a lot of different strategies and styles There are a hundreds different intricacies that will take forever to master and perfect. Just from watching GSL/GSTL this morning I watched a player stop his mule from mining before it picked up 30 minerals and self destructed, and Leenock did a spine crawler push with an overlord shitting creep against a protoss. The amount of things you're able to do and the strategic planning and execution required to be a top tier player is insane. I don't even know what you're trying to argue, but it's silly. I said the mechanics and control of a bw progamer are superior to that of an SC2 player unless it is a brood war pro that transfers over. There was a reason a BW progamer was a progamer and that is what will transfer over with them to SC2 is this not logically correct? Look at MC, Nestea, MVP, Boxer. Not super good brood war pro gamers that are at the top of SC2s competition. So, your saying that Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu would do "worst" then these four once they make a full time switch to SC2? | ||
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BaekHo
Korea (South)153 Posts
Its gonna cause lot of chaos. If this news is saying true, its pretty disappointing for NASL, hope its not true though. Anyway GL HF for nasl | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
Though, I can surely understand it's not exactly chump change to fly from Korea to the US, but with a $2,000 reimbursement it's hard to believe that they would really have any out of pocket expenses, and if they did I would think it would be minimal. I'm looking at flights right now from Korea to Los Angeles and it's roughly $800-1000. You figure a hotel and food and you could easily do it for 2K. That would basically be 100%. Well that's a bummer I guess we'll have to get this party started with out them... Go NASL! | ||
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BaekHo
Korea (South)153 Posts
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:36 BaekHo wrote: There is Korean news explaining about why Korean is not participating in NASL, but if I post link, Its gonna cause lot of chaos. If this news is saying true, its pretty disappointing for NASL, hope its not true though. Anyway GL HF for nasl Are you talking about the ThisIsGame article? I believe that's already been posted here somewhere. | ||
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:36 BaekHo wrote: There is Korean news explaining about why Korean is not participating in NASL, but if I post link, Its gonna cause lot of chaos. If this news is saying true, its pretty disappointing for NASL, hope its not true though. Anyway GL HF for nasl The news article you are referring to has already been posted on TL - on a separate post, and partially translated. And the facts or the opinions from that article has already been brought into this discussion as well. | ||
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BlazeFury01
United States1460 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:38 BaekHo wrote: some Korean say , the news is very bias, so it might not be true. lol I was just talking about this earlier but people refuse to accept the truth. | ||
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VillageBC
322 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:11 Misery[BH] wrote: I totally agree with your opinion on the skill differential making some games boring, however in the end, it usually results in the best players pitted against each other. I like the idea of competition, and I believe that North American players can easily be on par with Koreans if they had the same dedication and passion. Until they can do that, I'm personally content with seeing the stomping until we get to an awesome finals/semi finals. I think in the end it will only promote the people getting stomped to either improve, or get out. I don't want to watch Starcraft games forever knowing that we (NA/EU) have little to no players on par with Koreans, I want to see them improve and be able to compete against them. Globally involved tournaments like NASL season 1 often draw more interest from everyone as well, making it much more profitable financially and it will continue to grow. It's a shame things didn't work out this season. We're either going to see a tournament of fairly equal skill distribution, or some foreign players are going to get a chance to shine and show that they have improved, because there are still some very formidable Koreans left. If NA/EU had the infrastructure Koreans did for training, then they could easily be on par with them. As it stands, it's just getting started with EG house, Reign house coming, any others? A few months with proper practice schedule and training methods should do wonders. But even that will only maintain or slow the skill gap developing between Koreans and everyone else. What they lack for money, they sure have in proper training infrastructure setup that is not easy to replicate elsewhere. I'm somewhat worried that if Koreans continue at there pace, with only a few notable foreigners able to keep pace. It will hurt SC2 esports growth as a whole. People want hometown heroes to win and if it's shown repeatedly they are not in the same ball park will the more casual fans continue to watch? RIght now it's interesting to see which non-Koreans can compete with them or steal an upset. But that becomes less interesting as the skill gap grows and it will for the time being at least. I am actually quite disappointed in non-Korean players apparent lack of utilization of technology to atleast try and stay competitive. Maybe they are, and just because I'm a fan I'm not seeing inside it. But skype, ventrillo, streaming all allow teams to setup a training routine without being in the same location and communicate. There is no reason for any pro-team that I can see not to put aside that 8hr-12hr block of time 5 days a week where they all are online together practicing with each other. Yes, it's not as good as everyone being in the same house and able to just chat and share ideas but I would expect it to be a far more effective method then laddering 4hrs a day as practice. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote: And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. Start of filming =/= start of broadcast. The fact that NASL went ahead to start filming and production of a season where the status of 1/4 of their players were in a contractual state of limbo without contingency is poor organization. Regardless of their negotiation tactics, everything they did was completely legal and not out of the ordinary for business practices. The fact that you assume they had a non binding agreement to play it out doesn't mean anything. They may have, they may not have, point is, it doesn't matter because it's non binding. You're right, I cannot blame negotiations falling apart on NASL. Negotiations don't always work and I never did, nor was it my intention. What I did say fell on NASL is the responsibility to get their tournament together regardless. Example : You are a wedding planner. You have a wedding in 2 weeks. All of a sudden, your contract negotiations with your desired florist and band go up in flames. It's not your fault or their fault that the negotiations failed, that stuff happens. It IS still on you to get the wedding together and to have contingencies. Understand my point now? The fact that they seem to have not prepared any contingency and are scrambling with possible delays in production implies that something, somewhere, someone screwed up in the organizational chain of command. Someone assumed something and when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me both right? That's what I mean by something going wrong with NASL. I'm not blaming them for the negotiations falling apart. That's the nature of negotiations, not everything works out. It is not SC2con's fault that NASL went ahead with production without securing contracts or backups. It's NASL's JOB as the event organizer to get that stuff together. It's SC2con's JOB as Korean representatives to make demands for their players. No one is to blame for negotiations falling apart. However, not having a contingency, not securing contracts before production, the only people to blame for that NASL. Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this makes my position clear. On August 13 2011 00:27 Ryka wrote: Very good effort by the NASL admins by the sounds of it, going out of their way to break their own rules and give the koreans what they want. Sad that it failed but I look forward to seeing which koreans will still attend and who will replace the departing koreans. I'd assume PuMa, MC, NaDa, Rain, Hero would still attend due to the foreign team contracts. Let's just hope they put as much, if not more, effort into fixing the situation as they did into negotiations then. | ||
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LuciferSC
Canada535 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:39 BlazeFury01 wrote: lol I was just talking about this earlier but people refuse to accept the truth. I don't disagree with u, but so is NASL's statement. Very biased as well. | ||
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Misery[BH]
United States29 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:35 BlazeFury01 wrote: I said the mechanics and control of a bw progamer are superior to that of an SC2 player unless it is a brood war pro that transfers over. There was a reason a BW progamer was a progamer and that is what will transfer over with them to SC2 is this not logically correct? Look at MC, Nestea, MVP, Boxer. Not super good brood war pro gamers that are at the top of SC2s competition. So, your saying that Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu would do "worst" then these four once they make a full time switch to SC2? Uh, I guess having a progaming RTS background will help, but it's certainly not a requirement. You can't have "superior" mechanics and control when comparing two different games in my opinion. I read that paragraph 3 separate times and still don't know what you're arguing though. How good you are at the game will correlate to your dedication to practicing and becoming better. Minigun used to play Halo 3 or some shit and is pretty amazing for playing Starcraft 2 somewhat casually. | ||
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DjSpectre
United States62 Posts
To be honest, NASL might be able to sue the Korean teams who backed out for breech of contract if NASL's viewership goes way down as a result of this. IMO, to try and manipulate a fledgling league like this just smacks, to me, of the Korean's throwing their superiority in everyone's face. It was beyond rude and utterly egocentric for them to make these demands after their contracts had been signed. And then to wait until two weeks before it all kicks off to basically give NASL the finger, is chaffing my hide raw. I'll watch NASL now just because they aren't coming just to prove that we don't need Korean's to have a popular and successful tournament. | ||
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BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:35 BlazeFury01 wrote: I said the mechanics and control of a bw progamer are superior to that of an SC2 player unless it is a brood war pro that transfers over. There was a reason a BW progamer was a progamer and that is what will transfer over with them to SC2 is this not logically correct? Look at MC, Nestea, MVP, Boxer. Not super good brood war pro gamers that are at the top of SC2s competition. So, your saying that Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu would do "worst" then these four once they make a full time switch to SC2? Impressive... this thread is going for the all kill. We only need a 'Huk-foreigner' debate and a 'balance whine' now. What does SC2 vs BW has to do with the OP? In case you didn't read it... It's about negotiation problems between the NASL and most of the korean progaming teams. | ||
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Winkers
United States1 Post
I almost feel insulted by this. We're all foreigners in the end, and 2000$ isn't something I would ever scoff at when a 40k prize was on the line. Really, it's our viewers and their players that suffer in this situation. The whole thing feels like an act of elitism. I'm no longer a fan of any of the players on those teams if they don't make a comment about how they personally weren't a fan of the decision. | ||
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MyNameIsAlex
Greece827 Posts
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whateverpeeps
United States214 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote: The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. Yes, I don't understand why you respond to me as if we disagree? I am specifically stating that it's negotiation and that both parties are responsible, when someone seems to have taken it upon themselves to make this an issue of "NASL tournament organization" when that is not the case. | ||
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tripper688
United States569 Posts
On August 13 2011 00:44 DjSpectre wrote: I'm pretty late responding to the original post (heard about it on Destiny's stream last night), but I feel this is a prick move on the part of the Koreans. They basically quadrupled their offer and the Korean's still said no, despite having signed a contract that didn't include any of these terms. To be honest, NASL might be able to sue the Korean teams who backed out for breech of contract if NASL's viewership goes way down as a result of this. IMO, to try and manipulate a fledgling league like this just smacks, to me, of the Korean's throwing their superiority in everyone's face. It was beyond rude and utterly egocentric for them to make these demands after their contracts had been signed. And then to wait until two weeks before it all kicks off to basically give NASL the finger, is chaffing my hide raw. I'll watch NASL now just because they aren't coming just to prove that we don't need Korean's to have a popular and successful tournament. They never signed a contract for Season 2. The point is, they pick up and left when contract negotiations were going nowhere. Read the OP. The Koreans made it clear they wanted certain demands met or they could leave. As they were negotiating, NASL jumped the gun and decided to film anyway without any sort of backup should negotiations fail. Negotiations fail all the time, that isn't the problem. The problem is, NASL went ahead and started production banking on the fact that they wouldn't fail. Therefore, the responsibility to fix this issues lies solely with NASL. Unless there is some unknown contract none of us have seen that the Koreans signed obligating them to play in season 2. And no, that season 1 contract doesn't count. | ||
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