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On August 13 2011 00:44 DjSpectre wrote:
I'm pretty late responding to the original post (heard about it on Destiny's stream last night), but I feel this is a prick move on the part of the Koreans. They basically quadrupled their offer and the Korean's still said no, despite having signed a contract that didn't include any of these terms.
To be honest, NASL might be able to sue the Korean teams who backed out for breech of contract if NASL's viewership goes way down as a result of this.
IMO, to try and manipulate a fledgling league like this just smacks, to me, of the Korean's throwing their superiority in everyone's face. It was beyond rude and utterly egocentric for them to make these demands after their contracts had been signed. And then to wait until two weeks before it all kicks off to basically give NASL the finger, is chaffing my hide raw.
I'll watch NASL now just because they aren't coming just to prove that we don't need Korean's to have a popular and successful tournament.
You are free to have ur own opinion about who's wrong and who's right.
But you are making some assumptions here - there was no contract signed nor was there conditions agreed upon by both parties.
Also Koreans' intent is not to manipulate - they're simply saying the tournament condition isn't working out for them.
Now at this point, if you still want to say they're being unfair, well, that's ur call.
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On August 13 2011 00:41 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:39 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 00:38 BaekHo wrote:
some Korean say , the news is very bias, so it might not be true. lol I was just talking about this earlier but people refuse to accept the truth. I don't disagree with u, but so is NASL's statement. Very biased as well.
NASL tried to mend the situation by providing over $1000 more to support the travel of the koreans...I really do not see how the statement was biased...
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That's really unfortunate, especially considering how well received the Korean players were in season one. Hopefully these newly opened spots will be a great opportunity for some lesser-known talents to shine, and then everything can get worked out by season three!
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On August 13 2011 00:48 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. Yes, I don't understand why you respond to me as if we disagree? I am specifically stating that it's negotiation and that both parties are responsible, when someone seems to have taken it upon themselves to make this an issue of "NASL tournament organization" when that is not the case.
That actually is the case. I'm not arguing that both parties aren't responsible for the negotiations failing. I'm arguing that regardless of what happens, it's the NASL that is ultimately responsible for getting the tournament up and running and that they should have had contingencies in place. Without a contract, the players were never required to play. NASL made a gamble by going for production anyway but it didn't work out. Why should the Koreans face the brunt of scrutiny due to a failed gamble on the part of NASL?
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On August 13 2011 00:48 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. Yes, I don't understand why you respond to me as if we disagree? I am specifically stating that it's negotiation and that both parties are responsible, when someone seems to have taken it upon themselves to make this an issue of "NASL tournament organization" when that is not the case.
You worded your phrases in ways that made it distinctively clear you are putting SC2Con at fault. I know I probably sounded in such way (attacking NASL) in the beginning, but I am now trying to be fair and be on a neutral ground.
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I think the true problem here has very little to do with money. I see the true problem is not allowing players who want to compete a chance to do so.
the 2k will cover travel, or at least come very close to by any measure. So at the very least they get to travel to another country, participate in a large event, meet fans, and get more publicity. WHO WOULDNT WANNA DO THIS FOR FREE?
yet alone, still have the chance to bring home some serious bucks.
truth is: we dont need 30+ koreans participating, if only 2 or 3 see this as worthwhile, bring the 2 or 3. Im sure we'll find em.
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On August 13 2011 00:41 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:11 Misery[BH] wrote:
I totally agree with your opinion on the skill differential making some games boring, however in the end, it usually results in the best players pitted against each other. I like the idea of competition, and I believe that North American players can easily be on par with Koreans if they had the same dedication and passion. Until they can do that, I'm personally content with seeing the stomping until we get to an awesome finals/semi finals. I think in the end it will only promote the people getting stomped to either improve, or get out.
I don't want to watch Starcraft games forever knowing that we (NA/EU) have little to no players on par with Koreans, I want to see them improve and be able to compete against them. Globally involved tournaments like NASL season 1 often draw more interest from everyone as well, making it much more profitable financially and it will continue to grow. It's a shame things didn't work out this season. We're either going to see a tournament of fairly equal skill distribution, or some foreign players are going to get a chance to shine and show that they have improved, because there are still some very formidable Koreans left. If NA/EU had the infrastructure Koreans did for training, then they could easily be on par with them. As it stands, it's just getting started with EG house, Reign house coming, any others? A few months with proper practice schedule and training methods should do wonders. But even that will only maintain or slow the skill gap developing between Koreans and everyone else. What they lack for money, they sure have in proper training infrastructure setup that is not easy to replicate elsewhere. I'm somewhat worried that if Koreans continue at there pace, with only a few notable foreigners able to keep pace. It will hurt SC2 esports growth as a whole. People want hometown heroes to win and if it's shown repeatedly they are not in the same ball park will the more casual fans continue to watch? RIght now it's interesting to see which non-Koreans can compete with them or steal an upset. But that becomes less interesting as the skill gap grows and it will for the time being at least. I am actually quite disappointed in non-Korean players apparent lack of utilization of technology to atleast try and stay competitive. Maybe they are, and just because I'm a fan I'm not seeing inside it. But skype, ventrillo, streaming all allow teams to setup a training routine without being in the same location and communicate. There is no reason for any pro-team that I can see not to put aside that 8hr-12hr block of time 5 days a week where they all are online together practicing with each other. Yes, it's not as good as everyone being in the same house and able to just chat and share ideas but I would expect it to be a far more effective method then laddering 4hrs a day as practice.
I think North American players have even better opportunities to be progamers. Some of these houses are new, but some have been around for awhile. Teams in NA are easier to market and attract sponsors, you can pay players salaries so they don't have any financial worries, their only task is to practice and become better. Idra has already trained and lived in Korea, and it shows. If the infrastructure isn't available to you, go find it and improve.
I'm on board with you and wanting the hometown heroes to win, I'm usually rooting for the foreigner. Koreans may get exponentially better and this could be another Broodwar scenario where Koreans outshine every single North American, but so far SC2 has been a lot better in comparing skill differences. Every opportunity is present for NA/EU players, but in some cases the dedication is lacking. I hope there's more incentive for players to close in on that skill gap. Paying people a salary to be good against other North American players but suck against Koreans makes no sense to me. It'll also immediately abolish any chance of closing that skill gap. Bad players who don't take professional gaming serious shouldn't be paid.
I agree with you, the opportunity is present and I hope they can shine through in some upcoming events. Not to take away from the few that are kicking some ass though. It's easy to spot those who take this seriously and have the dedication to be the best. (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk, etc)
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NASL might have been somewhat optimistic that negotiations would eventually come to an agreement by starting production. Otherwise, it seems like the parties negotiated in good faith and simply couldn't reach something that was mutually beneficial.
It's unfortunate, but this shit happens sometimes in business.
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On August 13 2011 00:49 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:41 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:39 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 00:38 BaekHo wrote:
some Korean say , the news is very bias, so it might not be true. lol I was just talking about this earlier but people refuse to accept the truth. I don't disagree with u, but so is NASL's statement. Very biased as well. NASL tried to mend the situation by providing over $1000 more to support the travel of the koreans...I really do not see how the statement was biased...
Reread it please. They increased total stipend to $1000 for ALL R/O16 players as opposed to $500. They further restructured the prize pool so the winners and middle make less in order for ALL R/O16 players to go home with at least $1000 in winnings with the understanding that it would pay for the rest of the Korean's travel expenses. That is a VERY far cry from a straight up addition of $1000 in stipends for Koreans.
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On August 13 2011 00:53 bonifaceviii wrote:
NASL might have been somewhat optimistic that negotiations would eventually come to an agreement by starting production. Otherwise, it seems like the parties negotiated in good faith and simply couldn't reach something that was mutually beneficial.
It's unfortunate, but this shit happens sometimes in business.
This is/should be the take home message of this post.
The issue of whether the offers made by NASL/demands made by SC2Con is unfair is a totally different issue imo. (and should be done in a separate post if anything)
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On August 13 2011 00:41 tripper688 wrote:
Start of filming =/= start of broadcast. The fact that NASL went ahead to start filming and production of a season where the status of 1/4 of their players were in a contractual state of limbo without contingency is poor organization. Regardless of their negotiation tactics, everything they did was completely legal and not out of the ordinary for business practices. The fact that you assume they had a non binding agreement to play it out doesn't mean anything. They may have, they may not have, point is, it doesn't matter because it's non binding. You're right, I cannot blame negotiations falling apart on NASL. Negotiations don't always work and I never did, nor was it my intention. What I did say fell on NASL is the responsibility to get their tournament together regardless. Example : You are a wedding planner. You have a wedding in 2 weeks. All of a sudden, your contract negotiations with your desired florist and band go up in flames. It's not your fault or their fault that the negotiations failed, that stuff happens. It IS still on you to get the wedding together and to have contingencies. Understand my point now? The fact that they seem to have not prepared any contingency and are scrambling with possible delays in production implies that something, somewhere, someone screwed up in the organizational chain of command. Someone assumed something and when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me both right? That's what I mean by something going wrong with NASL. I'm not blaming them for the negotiations falling apart. That's the nature of negotiations, not everything works out. It is not SC2con's fault that NASL went ahead with production without securing contracts or backups. It's NASL's JOB as the event organizer to get that stuff together. It's SC2con's JOB as Korean representatives to make demands for their players. No one is to blame for negotiations falling apart. However, not having a contingency, not securing contracts before production, the only people to blame for that NASL. Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this makes my position clear.
Start of filming > broadcast. Broadcast date means absolutely nothing as it involves the Koreans in no way whatsoever. It is their responsibility to meet the filming dates because that's when games are played, not broadcast date...that is arbitrarily decided by NASL.
I agree with you that NASL should have been more cautious proceeding into Season 2....however, it seems that reason for caution was already given too late (1-2 weeks prior to the start), AND it seems that SC2Con made some kind of agreement to proceed. Yes, the agreement may be non-binding as you said, BUT that makes no difference. All that means is NASL can't sue them; it doesn't mean that it didn't lead NASL to believe that it was okay to proceed. Nonbinding contracts almost always precede binding ones.
You can't say that it's NASL having poor organization, when you are conceding the fact that there was probably a non-binding agreement involved. You are basically saying, "It's okay for them to tell NASL to start, because it was not a signed contract. It's NASL's fault for assuming they want to participate when they said they did." Doesn't make sense.
Also, PS, verbal contracts do have some legal weight.
Yes someone did assume, but what I am saying, there was some weight of responsibility that fell on SC2Con to clear assumptions, which they didn't seem to have done. They also seem to have purposefully delayed their final decision to put NASL in a tight spot intentionally, which although a good business tactic, is not really a good or fair one.
That's all I'm saying. I there was to be a boycott, it should have been issued long beforehand to give the NASL more leeway with their negotiations, and more time to make reparations.
It seems that NASL is fine even with a problem this late, which means their organization was perfectly set up. It's just not PROFESSIONAL to do that to a tournament, even if they can manage their way around it. In your wedding example, yes, it sucks when that happens, and as a wedding organizer you have to proceed regardless. But is it PROFESSIONAL that the flower person pulls out last minute? No, it's not.
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NASL wasn't that great to begin with. Streaming at 480P was acceptable but then now that they downgraded to 360P, meh.
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Possible solution. NASL could reduce the number of seasons and prize pool and use the extra cash to pay for hotel and travel expenses should they reach the ro16. This would "hopefully" solve the NASLs problem. Sure, you can't always get what you want but a $50,000 prize pool is excessive when the same players will participate in a tournament for $5,000. Money is money and this is what the players play for. Koreans did not stop playing in the GSL when the GSL dropped the prize pool $25,000 less and they won't stop playing in the NASL either.
Reduce the prize pool or number of seasons and use that the money to support the travel/hotel expenses for the koreans. That way more money won't have to be spend and everybody will still be satisfied at the end of the day.
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On August 13 2011 00:57 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:41 tripper688 wrote:
Start of filming =/= start of broadcast. The fact that NASL went ahead to start filming and production of a season where the status of 1/4 of their players were in a contractual state of limbo without contingency is poor organization. Regardless of their negotiation tactics, everything they did was completely legal and not out of the ordinary for business practices. The fact that you assume they had a non binding agreement to play it out doesn't mean anything. They may have, they may not have, point is, it doesn't matter because it's non binding. You're right, I cannot blame negotiations falling apart on NASL. Negotiations don't always work and I never did, nor was it my intention. What I did say fell on NASL is the responsibility to get their tournament together regardless. Example : You are a wedding planner. You have a wedding in 2 weeks. All of a sudden, your contract negotiations with your desired florist and band go up in flames. It's not your fault or their fault that the negotiations failed, that stuff happens. It IS still on you to get the wedding together and to have contingencies. Understand my point now? The fact that they seem to have not prepared any contingency and are scrambling with possible delays in production implies that something, somewhere, someone screwed up in the organizational chain of command. Someone assumed something and when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me both right? That's what I mean by something going wrong with NASL. I'm not blaming them for the negotiations falling apart. That's the nature of negotiations, not everything works out. It is not SC2con's fault that NASL went ahead with production without securing contracts or backups. It's NASL's JOB as the event organizer to get that stuff together. It's SC2con's JOB as Korean representatives to make demands for their players. No one is to blame for negotiations falling apart. However, not having a contingency, not securing contracts before production, the only people to blame for that NASL. Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this makes my position clear.
Start of filming > broadcast. Broadcast date means absolutely nothing as it involves the Koreans in no way whatsoever. It is their responsibility to meet the filming dates because that's when games are played, not broadcast date...that is arbitrarily decided by NASL. I agree with you that NASL should have been more cautious proceeding into Season 2....however, it seems that reason for caution was already given too late (1-2 weeks prior to the start), AND it seems that SC2Con made some kind of agreement to proceed. Yes, the agreement may be non-binding as you said, BUT that makes no difference. All that means is NASL can't sue them; it doesn't mean that it didn't lead NASL to believe that it was okay to proceed. Nonbinding contracts almost always precede binding ones. You can't say that it's NASL having poor organization, when you are conceding the fact that there was probably a non-binding agreement involved. You are basically saying, "It's okay for them to tell NASL to start, because it was not a signed contract. It's NASL's fault for assuming they want to participate when they said they did." Doesn't make sense. Also, PS, verbal contracts do have some legal weight. Yes someone did assume, but what I am saying, there was some weight of responsibility that fell on SC2Con to clear assumptions, which they didn't seem to have done. They also seem to have purposefully delayed their final decision to put NASL in a tight spot intentionally, which although a good business tactic, is not really a good or fair one. That's all I'm saying. I there was to be a boycott, it should have been issued long beforehand to give the NASL more leeway with their negotiations, and more time to make reparations. It seems that NASL is fine even with a problem this late, which means their organization was perfectly set up. It's just not PROFESSIONAL to do that to a tournament, even if they can manage their way around it. In your wedding example, yes, it sucks when that happens, and as a wedding organizer you have to proceed regardless. But is it PROFESSIONAL that the flower person pulls out last minute? No, it's not.
Both of you are heading towards a nice consensus now any minute.. the way I see it. 
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On August 13 2011 00:53 Misery[BH] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:41 VillageBC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:11 Misery[BH] wrote:
I totally agree with your opinion on the skill differential making some games boring, however in the end, it usually results in the best players pitted against each other. I like the idea of competition, and I believe that North American players can easily be on par with Koreans if they had the same dedication and passion. Until they can do that, I'm personally content with seeing the stomping until we get to an awesome finals/semi finals. I think in the end it will only promote the people getting stomped to either improve, or get out.
I don't want to watch Starcraft games forever knowing that we (NA/EU) have little to no players on par with Koreans, I want to see them improve and be able to compete against them. Globally involved tournaments like NASL season 1 often draw more interest from everyone as well, making it much more profitable financially and it will continue to grow. It's a shame things didn't work out this season. We're either going to see a tournament of fairly equal skill distribution, or some foreign players are going to get a chance to shine and show that they have improved, because there are still some very formidable Koreans left. If NA/EU had the infrastructure Koreans did for training, then they could easily be on par with them. As it stands, it's just getting started with EG house, Reign house coming, any others? A few months with proper practice schedule and training methods should do wonders. But even that will only maintain or slow the skill gap developing between Koreans and everyone else. What they lack for money, they sure have in proper training infrastructure setup that is not easy to replicate elsewhere. I'm somewhat worried that if Koreans continue at there pace, with only a few notable foreigners able to keep pace. It will hurt SC2 esports growth as a whole. People want hometown heroes to win and if it's shown repeatedly they are not in the same ball park will the more casual fans continue to watch? RIght now it's interesting to see which non-Koreans can compete with them or steal an upset. But that becomes less interesting as the skill gap grows and it will for the time being at least. I am actually quite disappointed in non-Korean players apparent lack of utilization of technology to atleast try and stay competitive. Maybe they are, and just because I'm a fan I'm not seeing inside it. But skype, ventrillo, streaming all allow teams to setup a training routine without being in the same location and communicate. There is no reason for any pro-team that I can see not to put aside that 8hr-12hr block of time 5 days a week where they all are online together practicing with each other. Yes, it's not as good as everyone being in the same house and able to just chat and share ideas but I would expect it to be a far more effective method then laddering 4hrs a day as practice. I think North American players have even better opportunities to be progamers. Some of these houses are new, but some have been around for awhile. Teams in NA are easier to market and attract sponsors, you can pay players salaries so they don't have any financial worries, their only task is to practice and become better. Idra has already trained and lived in Korea, and it shows. If the infrastructure isn't available to you, go find it and improve. I'm on board with you and wanting the hometown heroes to win, I'm usually rooting for the foreigner. Koreans may get exponentially better and this could be another Broodwar scenario where Koreans outshine every single North American, but so far SC2 has been a lot better in comparing skill differences. Every opportunity is present for NA/EU players, but in some cases the dedication is lacking. I hope there's more incentive for players to close in on that skill gap. Paying people a salary to be good against other North American players but suck against Koreans makes no sense to me. It'll also immediately abolish any chance of closing that skill gap. Bad players who don't take professional gaming serious shouldn't be paid. I agree with you, the opportunity is present and I hope they can shine through in some upcoming events. Not to take away from the few that are kicking some ass though. It's easy to spot those who take this seriously and have the dedication to be the best. (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk, etc)
I think they have better opportunities to be progamers but maybe not Code S level progamers. While the houses are appearing and there is a player base, there isn't enough high level competition. Practicing Kr vs Na is night and day with the differences in ladder and practice partner level. You bring up IdrA. He is one player I would say has arguably regressed/stagnated from the time he left Korea. Consistent Code S Zerg with great ZvT peaks, wins an MLG...and at this point, he is barely keeping up with Code A players. Several foreigners have equaled and/or surpassed him. This coincides his decision to move back to the states as well as practice 3 hours a day. I would hesitate to put him on the list with HuK and Naniwa.
On August 13 2011 00:53 bonifaceviii wrote:
NASL might have been somewhat optimistic that negotiations would eventually come to an agreement by starting production. Otherwise, it seems like the parties negotiated in good faith and simply couldn't reach something that was mutually beneficial.
It's unfortunate, but this shit happens sometimes in business.
Completely true. Also doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, it's still up to NASL to get the tournament up and if they don't it's on them.
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On August 13 2011 00:58 geokilla wrote:
NASL wasn't that great to begin with. Streaming at 480P was acceptable but then now that they downgraded to 360P, meh.
NASL streams just fine at 1080p for me, maybe you need to upgrade.
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Ever play that game 7 Degrees of Kevin Bacon? I feel like you can do that with any SC2 topic on TL, its like no matter what the starting topic is can we get it to digress to SC2 v. BW mechanics post by page 150?
I think people also need to realize that this is going to come up with how international SC2 is and will become. We are talking about a lot of different cultural issues, conflicts in business practices and how things are done in different areas of the world, visa issues, etc. Everyone will get better at it and more comfortable in the long run working together, but it isn't easy dealing through different language barriers and other issues and we've seen that already several times with SC2.
I think this seems like a case of really nobody is to blame, nobody is evil, it just didn't work out. The Koreans felt they needed more compensation for basically the overall effort of being involved in this. They understand their value to the league, and the potential viewers/popularity their presences creates. NASL went as far as they felt they could to provide that compensation. In the end, the 2 sides didn't meet at a middle area that made sense for both. I respect what the NASL tried to provide, and I think they didn't fall short of what I'd expect them to try to offer. The Korean teams understand their own finances, and have to do what is right for them as well and not get stuck in a place with insufficient cash flow or the ability to take care of their players.
Again, I think from a business point of view it was a shortsighted decision by Korean teams to not try to make this work because I feel that establishing your name and brand in America is always beneficial and can be profitable in the long run. Some teams are struggling for sponsorship and cash flow, and I'd think trying to find money abroad in the booming SC2 market is the way to go.
I think you have to respect that the NASL didn't cave completely either. It can be a slippery slope if they did, and I could see other players in the league going, "wait a second....why are they getting all these concessions but we aren't?"
I think the real disappointing part is the timing. With most negotiations if there is a genuine interest on both parties to make something work there is usually a way. But seems in this case time became a factor because of how late the issues were brought up.
I'll still enjoy watching the NASL. I love how I can tune in when there are players I want to see and that it gives me a viewing option several nights a week. To me the NASL is more like an SC2 TV show, and sometimes I'll watch and sometimes I won't. The season reminds me more of a real sports season, and I don't want every NFL game, or NBA game during a season either. I watch the teams I like, or the players I like.
So as an SC2 I think the summary is, this is disappointing to hear. The fans ultimately suffer, and hopefully for Season 3 things can be adjusted and they can get back on board.
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It is likely that the embarrassingly bad production has something to do with this decision.
NASL was so bad it makes everyone involved with it look pathetic. I don't see why Koreans would want to tarnish their image by associating with a kiddie amateur hour. Especially when there is the possibility they will even lose money in addition to all their time and effort.
SlayerS has paid for team members to attend MLG. BoxeR pulling out shows that Koreans are abandoning NASL because it is humiliating to associate with, not because of financial limitations.
They are probably just too polite to publicly shame NASL and a dispute over travel expenses provides a tactful way to bow out.
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On August 13 2011 00:51 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:48 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. Yes, I don't understand why you respond to me as if we disagree? I am specifically stating that it's negotiation and that both parties are responsible, when someone seems to have taken it upon themselves to make this an issue of "NASL tournament organization" when that is not the case. That actually is the case. I'm not arguing that both parties aren't responsible for the negotiations failing. I'm arguing that regardless of what happens, it's the NASL that is ultimately responsible for getting the tournament up and running and that they should have had contingencies in place. Without a contract, the players were never required to play. NASL made a gamble by going for production anyway but it didn't work out. Why should the Koreans face the brunt of scrutiny due to a failed gamble on the part of NASL?
Yes, which they are doing. You have no proof that contingencies weren't in case and that the organization is in poor shape, as NASL did not call off Season 2. Also, this is a pretty big blow, which I wouldn't expect most tournaments to work around without some form of delay, so it's pretty remarkable that NASL is proceeding as if to make their original deadline.
It also doesn't change the fact that SC2Con's behavior, whether bound or not bound by contract, was unprofessional. If they were proceeding to a boycott, one should have been enacted the minute they brought up complaints, not after filming. An agreement to proceed may not be legally binding, but it does influence how NASL will proceed. It IS kind of bad to conduct business like that, and then pull out last minute.
That's all I'm saying...NASL should have been more cautious and suspicious, but SC2Con should most definitely been more straightforward, and faster, which I honestly felt like they were not being on purpose, as they stand to gain huge from putting it off to the last minute..
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