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Now Catz can be happy without even having to participate!! success
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On August 13 2011 01:13 Abrafred wrote:
Now Catz can be happy without even having to participate!! success
hooray
nerf the competition so we have a chance at winning money without dedication and passion
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On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won.
Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't.
So, your telling me that if I won a tournament in europe and had the euro currency replaced with the dollar, I wouldn't end up with more money in my native country?
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On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't.
You are making it sound like Korea is a third world country where u can take one month's paycheck and live like an emperor.
You are horribly mistaken.
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So let me get this straight, in order to participate in the GSL, you are basically expected to move to Korea, and I am under the impression that they do not pay for a single penny of foreigner expenses to get there. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yet, the NASL offers $2000 in travel expenses and it's not good enough? What the hell? I'm glad you tried NASL, but if the Koreans don't want to take the offer, then the ones getting hurt are the SC2 viewers and SC2 as an Esport. Lately, the SC2 drama has been more like the examples of bad sportsmanship in America, than the generally mature nature that they used to have. It just makes me sad.
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And that was a waste of my 400th post.. ;p
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On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't. So, your telling me that if I won a tournament in europe and had the euro currency replaced with the dollar, I wouldn't end up with more money in my native country?
lol are you being serious right now?
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On August 13 2011 01:09 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:57 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 13 2011 00:41 tripper688 wrote:
Start of filming =/= start of broadcast. The fact that NASL went ahead to start filming and production of a season where the status of 1/4 of their players were in a contractual state of limbo without contingency is poor organization. Regardless of their negotiation tactics, everything they did was completely legal and not out of the ordinary for business practices. The fact that you assume they had a non binding agreement to play it out doesn't mean anything. They may have, they may not have, point is, it doesn't matter because it's non binding. You're right, I cannot blame negotiations falling apart on NASL. Negotiations don't always work and I never did, nor was it my intention. What I did say fell on NASL is the responsibility to get their tournament together regardless. Example : You are a wedding planner. You have a wedding in 2 weeks. All of a sudden, your contract negotiations with your desired florist and band go up in flames. It's not your fault or their fault that the negotiations failed, that stuff happens. It IS still on you to get the wedding together and to have contingencies. Understand my point now? The fact that they seem to have not prepared any contingency and are scrambling with possible delays in production implies that something, somewhere, someone screwed up in the organizational chain of command. Someone assumed something and when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me both right? That's what I mean by something going wrong with NASL. I'm not blaming them for the negotiations falling apart. That's the nature of negotiations, not everything works out. It is not SC2con's fault that NASL went ahead with production without securing contracts or backups. It's NASL's JOB as the event organizer to get that stuff together. It's SC2con's JOB as Korean representatives to make demands for their players. No one is to blame for negotiations falling apart. However, not having a contingency, not securing contracts before production, the only people to blame for that NASL. Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this makes my position clear.
Start of filming > broadcast. Broadcast date means absolutely nothing as it involves the Koreans in no way whatsoever. It is their responsibility to meet the filming dates because that's when games are played, not broadcast date...that is arbitrarily decided by NASL. I agree with you that NASL should have been more cautious proceeding into Season 2....however, it seems that reason for caution was already given too late (1-2 weeks prior to the start), AND it seems that SC2Con made some kind of agreement to proceed. Yes, the agreement may be non-binding as you said, BUT that makes no difference. All that means is NASL can't sue them; it doesn't mean that it didn't lead NASL to believe that it was okay to proceed. Nonbinding contracts almost always precede binding ones. You can't say that it's NASL having poor organization, when you are conceding the fact that there was probably a non-binding agreement involved. You are basically saying, "It's okay for them to tell NASL to start, because it was not a signed contract. It's NASL's fault for assuming they want to participate when they said they did." Doesn't make sense. Also, PS, verbal contracts do have some legal weight. Yes someone did assume, but what I am saying, there was some weight of responsibility that fell on SC2Con to clear assumptions, which they didn't seem to have done. They also seem to have purposefully delayed their final decision to put NASL in a tight spot intentionally, which although a good business tactic, is not really a good or fair one. That's all I'm saying. I there was to be a boycott, it should have been issued long beforehand to give the NASL more leeway with their negotiations, and more time to make reparations. It seems that NASL is fine even with a problem this late, which means their organization was perfectly set up. It's just not PROFESSIONAL to do that to a tournament, even if they can manage their way around it. In your wedding example, yes, it sucks when that happens, and as a wedding organizer you have to proceed regardless. But is it PROFESSIONAL that the flower person pulls out last minute? No, it's not. In my wedding example, is it professional that the florist pulls out last moment? No it's not. But if we're making a direct analogy, you would have had to have been a pretty crappy boss to begin with considering the scheduling and production issues the Koreans had with season 1. Neither side comes out of this smelling like roses but unless some crazy news pops up, the responsibility lies solely with NASL to get this thing back running.
That's not true. You could have been just dealing with a particularly demanding, flaky, or deceiving florist.
I am not debating whether it's NASL's responsibility to get the tournament up. Of course it's solely their responsibility. However, you are confusing responsibility with fairness and good business practice.
Once again, there is no excuse why Sc2Con could not have issued the boycott sooner, regardless of whether or not NASL could rebound from it, because it is a costly and timely dent.
It doesn't matter if you were bound by contract or not, as a good person, as a good leader, you would want to prevent the other side from experiencing those kinds of losses and stress.
I get the impression that, this delayed action was intentional by Sc2Con because it is a common business practice, especially in Korea. So far I have not heard an argument from anyone why sc2con COULDN'T have issued the boycott sooner, which leads me to believe they could have but didn't want to. Why? because they stand to gain from putting it off to the last minute.
NASL is responsible for getting the tournament running regardless, but there is a big difference between a month prior to filming, and a week after the start of filming. SC2Con didn't seem to want NASL to have much leeway in negotiations, so they enacted the boycott which would force NASL to concede since the alternative is costly, stressful, and time-consuming.
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On August 13 2011 01:14 Misery[BH] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:13 Abrafred wrote:
Now Catz can be happy without even having to participate!! success hooray nerf the competition so we have a chance at winning money without dedication and passion
Indeed this is pretty sad. We will sure see lower quality of play this season but on the other hand the cash prizes may work as a motive for the foreigners to work harder and possibly narrow the skill gap between them and koreans if there are 100 fresh k on the line and most (and the best) koreans are out of the fight.
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On August 13 2011 01:15 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't. You are making it sound like Korea is a third world country where u can take one month's paycheck and live like an emperor. You are horribly mistaken.
That's your opinion. Have you lived in Korea? Do you know the difference in the currency? I am just asking for evidence since you are talking like you know it all.
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On August 13 2011 01:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:15 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't. You are making it sound like Korea is a third world country where u can take one month's paycheck and live like an emperor. You are horribly mistaken. That's your opinion. Have you lived in Korea? Do you know the difference in the currency? I am just asking for evidence since you are talking like you know it all.
Are you saying because 1200 is a larger number than 1, 1200 won > 1 dollar? I'm so confused right now..
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On August 13 2011 01:17 Abrafred wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:14 Misery[BH] wrote:On August 13 2011 01:13 Abrafred wrote:
Now Catz can be happy without even having to participate!! success hooray nerf the competition so we have a chance at winning money without dedication and passion Indeed this is pretty sad. We will sure see lower quality of play this season but on the other hand the cash prizes may work as a motive for the foreigners to work harder and possibly narrow the skill gap between them and koreans if there are 100 fresh k on the line and most (and the best) koreans are out of the fight.
That's sure what I'm hoping for because no one has any control over the issue in the OP.
Praying for the best
Slightly off topic, I'm a Terran player, which NA Terran do I root for?
select is my current and there are some awesome europeans, but where are the NA Terrans at?
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On August 13 2011 01:10 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:06 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. You're wrong, you CAN put all the blame on one side in a negotiation. SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer, SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer again, to the highest limit they could go within their budget, and SC2Con said "No, we want you to pay all costs." NASL tried to negotiate, they tried to make concessions so the koreans could come, but its clear that either SC2Con had no plan to let their players play from the beginning, or they are just fond of making completely unreasonable demands. That comes from the difference in their views. SC2Con made such demand because they felt that their players participating in the tournament had significant monetary and other benefit for NASL. Not to mention the fact that their profitability in NASL may not have seemed as appealing for SC2Con. Now if you feel that view isn't deserved - that's your personal call. I don't think anyone can simply state that SC2Con is wrong to think in such way.
Maybe foreigners in the MLG-GSL program should not only receive their code A spot, adn their free housing, but they should demand that the prizepool for round of 32 be increased to 1000 dollars to make it extremely profitable for them with 0 risk... that would clearly make sense too right?
Besides this has absolutely nothing to do with whether they find it profitable or not to send their players, its just SC2Con sending a message. If it was about profitabilty they would let their players and teams make their own individual choices. Do you think that a player like MC wouldn't come to a tournament that was guaranteed 350 dollars, with a very good chance that he would leave with a 40,000 dollar check? Of course he, and other players his caliber, would come. But it should be his choice, not some stupid fucking committee that is putting a blanket ban on it to send a message.
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On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't.
This must be a professional troll or the saddest commenter i've ever encountered in any online blog. Honestly, i feel too sad to try and explain how wrong this man is.
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On August 13 2011 01:15 NEOtheONE wrote:
So let me get this straight, in order to participate in the GSL, you are basically expected to move to Korea, and I am under the impression that they do not pay for a single penny of foreigner expenses to get there. Please correct me if I am wrong.
THANK YOU! More people need to see the selfishness of Koreas decision. Foreigners have to make sacrafices and Koreans should as well.
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On August 13 2011 01:14 Misery[BH] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:13 Abrafred wrote:
Now Catz can be happy without even having to participate!! success hooray nerf the competition so we have a chance at winning money without dedication and passion
Good news is those NA players wont win this tournament either.
A few koreans and europeans migrating,they dont have a chance
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On August 13 2011 01:15 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't. You are making it sound like Korea is a third world country where u can take one month's paycheck and live like an emperor. You are horribly mistaken.
Indeed, Seoul is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live in.
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On August 13 2011 01:19 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:17 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:15 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:14 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:12 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story. Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won. Actually it does. Show me facts proving that it won't. You are making it sound like Korea is a third world country where u can take one month's paycheck and live like an emperor. You are horribly mistaken. That's your opinion. Have you lived in Korea? Do you know the difference in the currency? I am just asking for evidence since you are talking like you know it all. Are you saying because 1200 is a larger number than 1, 1200 won > 1 dollar? I'm so confused right now..
If your confused, why engage in the debate? lol
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On August 13 2011 01:19 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:10 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:06 PHILtheTANK wrote:On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. You're wrong, you CAN put all the blame on one side in a negotiation. SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer, SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer again, to the highest limit they could go within their budget, and SC2Con said "No, we want you to pay all costs." NASL tried to negotiate, they tried to make concessions so the koreans could come, but its clear that either SC2Con had no plan to let their players play from the beginning, or they are just fond of making completely unreasonable demands. That comes from the difference in their views. SC2Con made such demand because they felt that their players participating in the tournament had significant monetary and other benefit for NASL. Not to mention the fact that their profitability in NASL may not have seemed as appealing for SC2Con. Now if you feel that view isn't deserved - that's your personal call. I don't think anyone can simply state that SC2Con is wrong to think in such way. Maybe foreigners in the MLG-GSL program should not only receive their code A spot, adn their free housing, but they should demand that the prizepool for round of 32 be increased to 1000 dollars to make it extremely profitable for them with 0 risk... that would clearly make sense too right? Besides this has absolutely nothing to do with whether they find it profitable or not to send their players, its just SC2Con sending a message. If it was about profitabilty they would let their players and teams make their own individual choices. Do you think that a player like MC wouldn't come to a tournament that was guaranteed 350 dollars, with a very good chance that he would leave with a 40,000 dollar check? Of course he, and other players his caliber, would come. But it should be his choice, not some stupid fucking committee that is putting a blanket ban on it to send a message.
Foreigners aren't in the same spotlight to be making such claim - their presence does have benefit for GSL in sense they may broaden their audience population, but no one can argue that they raise the level of the tournament.
The argument you are making is very subjective.
Others, especially the Korean pros may feel differently.
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On August 13 2011 00:56 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:53 bonifaceviii wrote:
NASL might have been somewhat optimistic that negotiations would eventually come to an agreement by starting production. Otherwise, it seems like the parties negotiated in good faith and simply couldn't reach something that was mutually beneficial.
It's unfortunate, but this shit happens sometimes in business. This is/should be the take home message of this post. The issue of whether the offers made by NASL/demands made by SC2Con is unfair is a totally different issue imo. (and should be done in a separate post if anything)
Second this.
On August 13 2011 00:57 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:41 tripper688 wrote:
Start of filming =/= start of broadcast. The fact that NASL went ahead to start filming and production of a season where the status of 1/4 of their players were in a contractual state of limbo without contingency is poor organization. Regardless of their negotiation tactics, everything they did was completely legal and not out of the ordinary for business practices. The fact that you assume they had a non binding agreement to play it out doesn't mean anything. They may have, they may not have, point is, it doesn't matter because it's non binding. You're right, I cannot blame negotiations falling apart on NASL. Negotiations don't always work and I never did, nor was it my intention. What I did say fell on NASL is the responsibility to get their tournament together regardless. Example : You are a wedding planner. You have a wedding in 2 weeks. All of a sudden, your contract negotiations with your desired florist and band go up in flames. It's not your fault or their fault that the negotiations failed, that stuff happens. It IS still on you to get the wedding together and to have contingencies. Understand my point now? The fact that they seem to have not prepared any contingency and are scrambling with possible delays in production implies that something, somewhere, someone screwed up in the organizational chain of command. Someone assumed something and when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me both right? That's what I mean by something going wrong with NASL. I'm not blaming them for the negotiations falling apart. That's the nature of negotiations, not everything works out. It is not SC2con's fault that NASL went ahead with production without securing contracts or backups. It's NASL's JOB as the event organizer to get that stuff together. It's SC2con's JOB as Korean representatives to make demands for their players. No one is to blame for negotiations falling apart. However, not having a contingency, not securing contracts before production, the only people to blame for that NASL. Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this makes my position clear.
Start of filming > broadcast. Broadcast date means absolutely nothing as it involves the Koreans in no way whatsoever. It is their responsibility to meet the filming dates because that's when games are played, not broadcast date...that is arbitrarily decided by NASL. I agree with you that NASL should have been more cautious proceeding into Season 2....however, it seems that reason for caution was already given too late (1-2 weeks prior to the start), AND it seems that SC2Con made some kind of agreement to proceed. Yes, the agreement may be non-binding as you said, BUT that makes no difference. All that means is NASL can't sue them; it doesn't mean that it didn't lead NASL to believe that it was okay to proceed. Nonbinding contracts almost always precede binding ones. You can't say that it's NASL having poor organization, when you are conceding the fact that there was probably a non-binding agreement involved. You are basically saying, "It's okay for them to tell NASL to start, because it was not a signed contract. It's NASL's fault for assuming they want to participate when they said they did." Doesn't make sense. Also, PS, verbal contracts do have some legal weight. Yes someone did assume, but what I am saying, there was some weight of responsibility that fell on SC2Con to clear assumptions, which they didn't seem to have done. They also seem to have purposefully delayed their final decision to put NASL in a tight spot intentionally, which although a good business tactic, is not really a good or fair one. That's all I'm saying. I there was to be a boycott, it should have been issued long beforehand to give the NASL more leeway with their negotiations, and more time to make reparations. It seems that NASL is fine even with a problem this late, which means their organization was perfectly set up. It's just not PROFESSIONAL to do that to a tournament, even if they can manage their way around it. In your wedding example, yes, it sucks when that happens, and as a wedding organizer you have to proceed regardless. But is it PROFESSIONAL that the flower person pulls out last minute? No, it's not.
Its somewhere in between. The perception of whether NASL or SC2Con is more or less unprofessional, etc. is not constructive and is uncertain given that we do not have/know every single detail and why do we need to know and search for someone to blame? End of the day, NASL still needs and should be expected to put up the best production they can and let's just encourage and hope that they do that and give constructive suggestions moving forward.
On August 13 2011 00:56 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:53 bonifaceviii wrote:
NASL might have been somewhat optimistic that negotiations would eventually come to an agreement by starting production. Otherwise, it seems like the parties negotiated in good faith and simply couldn't reach something that was mutually beneficial.
It's unfortunate, but this shit happens sometimes in business. This is/should be the take home message of this post. The issue of whether the offers made by NASL/demands made by SC2Con is unfair is a totally different issue imo. (and should be done in a separate post if anything)
Did I say I second this?
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EPT
