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On August 13 2011 00:13 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:49 Lobo2me wrote:
While his post might not have meant it, the way I read it it's partly correct.
It's a NA based league, of course people in NA will get more comfort in it. It's better for their time zone and smaller traveling expenses, and it fits well with the production they chose. While it's unfortunate for koreans that they're in a bad time zone, it's up to them to choose if they want to play in that league or not.
Let's say that a player complained that Dreamhack was in Sweden, or that it was a LAN. Should Dreamhack start having their tournament in other countries or have online players as well? Or what about requiring people to be in Korea or even play at bad NA time zones for GSL? Should GOM change their league to an online league with random times to accommodate every single player in the world?
No, that would be silly. The tournament organizers aren't catering to a specific server, they're making stuff better for themselves. Just like if there was an online international KRSL, it would most likely follow normal Korean time zones, and it would be up to international players to decide if they wanted to play or not. ...This entire argument is silly. GSL is a LAN. Dreamhack is a LAN. People prefer LANs for the very reason that you get to avoid the time zone and latency BS. You show up a day or two early and you're completely fine for your matches. The NASL was not formed to create a league that would handicap foreigners. It was formed to be the American answer to GSL, where we could have the best players playing in an NA tournament for the best prize. And in any case, your argument further makes no sense because NASL accommodates EU players and even the casters more than the KR players. Does the Tour de France require foreigners to arrive the day of the race or use heavier bikes? The tournament is supposed to have a level playing field. I honestly can't believe I'm reading comments suggesting otherwise. As for GSL, the foreigners are given a play to stay, organized meets with other teams for practice and acclimation, and that's done for the duration of their stay. Sounds like they sure are going out of their way to ignore the foreigners right?
NASL Finals is a LAN. Yet that was one of the things at the center why they wouldn't/couldn't come. I have no doubt that if it was a fully online league with that price pool, there would be no problems with playing at 4 AM for 3 months.
The NASL accomodates EU players better because they happen to live in a time zone where it isn't uncomfortable. That's all there is to that. The structure NASL chose for their production will make it happen (games cast live, having a normal work schedule for their casters). Why is it up to the producers of the league to mess up the sleeping schedule of themselves and many players to have a tournament at a time where it won't mess up the sleeping schedule of some other players?
Which korean online tournaments change their schedule so that international players can play at a better time (and at the same time making it worse for the producers of the tournament and the korean players)?
It's not up to the organizers to change their production to accommodate everyone that plays in the league when time zones make it impossible. And people that don't like it, aren't forced to play in it either. Your main point is "3 months of playing under horrible conditions", but I see the biggest reason to don't go to NASL is that the teams can't afford sending every player qualifying for the finals. And the finals is just a LAN with online qualifiers. No one cares about there not being koreans at every single european LAN with 3-5k dollars first price, just like they don't care about every NA/EU pro going there, but because it's NASL some people blame the organizers for not accommodating players with demands (some reasonable, some unreasonable) they have no obligation to accommodate.
You can't ride a bike at Tour the France while being at the other side of the world, that's a silly argument. And it's not punishing foreigners (in France) with a heavier bike, it's just not giving them benefits to make up for it when they choose to (or have to) ride with a heavier bike.
Yes, there are ways this could be done fair for every player(or at least equally unfair). Most of them are completely ridiculous for the people running this tournament. If they're getting these kind of problems of getting players to play within a set time frame on one server, imagine how it would be if games could be played at every single hour of the day across 3 servers.
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On August 13 2011 01:00 Gurblechev wrote:
It is likely that the embarrassingly bad production has something to do with this decision.
NASL was so bad it makes everyone involved with it look pathetic. I don't see why Koreans would want to tarnish their image by associating with a kiddie amateur hour. Especially when there is the possibility they will even lose money in addition to all their time and effort.
SlayerS has paid for team members to attend MLG. BoxeR pulling out shows that Koreans are abandoning NASL because it is humiliating to associate with, not because of financial limitations.
They are probably just too polite to publicly shame NASL and a dispute over travel expenses provides a tactful way to bow out.
I think you are taking your view a bit too far.
Koreans probably decided to pull out because they felt the tournament is too small if anything (and unprofitable for them and their players), not because it is 'humiliating'.
Just my 2 cents.
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Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves.
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On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves.
SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm.
However that is not why they pulled out.
They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players.
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On August 13 2011 01:00 Gurblechev wrote:
It is likely that the embarrassingly bad production has something to do with this decision.
NASL was so bad it makes everyone involved with it look pathetic. I don't see why Koreans would want to tarnish their image by associating with a kiddie amateur hour. Especially when there is the possibility they will even lose money in addition to all their time and effort.
SlayerS has paid for team members to attend MLG. BoxeR pulling out shows that Koreans are abandoning NASL because it is humiliating to associate with, not because of financial limitations.
They are probably just too polite to publicly shame NASL and a dispute over travel expenses provides a tactful way to bow out.
I wouldn't say the production was embarrassingly bad. It wasn't good, but that's a pretty steep claim.
Also, it seems that many Koreans did and still do want to participate in the Season. They are just worried about getting their players there, not "tarnishing their image." Some players are even now looking for ways around SC2Con to participate.
Boxer and NASL are on good terms so I am not even sure where you got that impression.
I think you should definitely reconsider a lot of your post. Read through the thread a little.
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On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same.
You're wrong, you CAN put all the blame on one side in a negotiation. SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer, SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer again, to the highest limit they could go within their budget, and SC2Con said "No, we want you to pay all costs."
NASL tried to negotiate, they tried to make concessions so the koreans could come, but its clear that either SC2Con had no plan to let their players play from the beginning, or they are just fond of making completely unreasonable demands.
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On August 13 2011 01:00 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:58 geokilla wrote:
NASL wasn't that great to begin with. Streaming at 480P was acceptable but then now that they downgraded to 360P, meh. NASL streams just fine at 1080p for me, maybe you need to upgrade.
He's talking about the free stream. You used to be able to watch it at 480P, but since some time in the middle of S1, you couldn't watch 480P anymore.
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On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players.
Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it)
How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable?
Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story.
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I think this is a step forward.
Now only truly confident Koreans who feel confident of getting prize money will apply. We don't need another artificial 'Global' league like GSL which, I suspect, is heavily pushed by Blizzard with the goal of making a true esports sequel to BW.
I have a feeling like Blizzard is pumping unrealistic amounts of money into SC2 with the expectation of harvesting the fruits once it catches on more. I also have a feeling like Activision/Blizzard may soon say "fuck it, this isn't working" and pull out of the tournament organization. I actually look forward to that day, because then it's free market, real sponsors provide realistic money, and the whole SC2 e-sport then stands on firm ground which won't collapse as easily.
At this moment, as big as SC2 seems, I have a feeling it could burst like a bubble.
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On August 13 2011 01:02 Lobo2me wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:13 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:49 Lobo2me wrote:
While his post might not have meant it, the way I read it it's partly correct.
It's a NA based league, of course people in NA will get more comfort in it. It's better for their time zone and smaller traveling expenses, and it fits well with the production they chose. While it's unfortunate for koreans that they're in a bad time zone, it's up to them to choose if they want to play in that league or not.
Let's say that a player complained that Dreamhack was in Sweden, or that it was a LAN. Should Dreamhack start having their tournament in other countries or have online players as well? Or what about requiring people to be in Korea or even play at bad NA time zones for GSL? Should GOM change their league to an online league with random times to accommodate every single player in the world?
No, that would be silly. The tournament organizers aren't catering to a specific server, they're making stuff better for themselves. Just like if there was an online international KRSL, it would most likely follow normal Korean time zones, and it would be up to international players to decide if they wanted to play or not. ...This entire argument is silly. GSL is a LAN. Dreamhack is a LAN. People prefer LANs for the very reason that you get to avoid the time zone and latency BS. You show up a day or two early and you're completely fine for your matches. The NASL was not formed to create a league that would handicap foreigners. It was formed to be the American answer to GSL, where we could have the best players playing in an NA tournament for the best prize. And in any case, your argument further makes no sense because NASL accommodates EU players and even the casters more than the KR players. Does the Tour de France require foreigners to arrive the day of the race or use heavier bikes? The tournament is supposed to have a level playing field. I honestly can't believe I'm reading comments suggesting otherwise. As for GSL, the foreigners are given a play to stay, organized meets with other teams for practice and acclimation, and that's done for the duration of their stay. Sounds like they sure are going out of their way to ignore the foreigners right? NASL Finals is a LAN. Yet that was one of the things at the center why they wouldn't/couldn't come. I have no doubt that if it was a fully online league with that price pool, there would be no problems with playing at 4 AM for 3 months. The NASL accomodates EU players better because they happen to live in a time zone where it isn't uncomfortable. That's all there is to that. The structure NASL chose for their production will make it happen (games cast live, having a normal work schedule for their casters). Why is it up to the producers of the league to mess up the sleeping schedule of themselves and many players to have a tournament at a time where it won't mess up the sleeping schedule of some other players? Which korean online tournaments change their schedule so that international players can play at a better time (and at the same time making it worse for the producers of the tournament and the korean players)? It's not up to the organizers to change their production to accommodate everyone that plays in the league when time zones make it impossible. And people that don't like it, aren't forced to play in it either. Your main point is "3 months of playing under horrible conditions", but I see the biggest reason to don't go to NASL is that the teams can't afford sending every player qualifying for the finals. And the finals is just a LAN with online qualifiers. No one cares about there not being koreans at every single european LAN with 3-5k dollars first price, just like they don't care about every NA/EU pro going there, but because it's NASL some people blame the organizers for not accommodating players with demands (some reasonable, some unreasonable) they have no obligation to accommodate. You can't ride a bike at Tour the France while being at the other side of the world, that's a silly argument. And it's not punishing foreigners (in France) with a heavier bike, it's just not giving them benefits to make up for it when they choose to (or have to) ride with a heavier bike. Yes, there are ways this could be done fair for every player(or at least equally unfair). Most of them are completely ridiculous for the people running this tournament. If they're getting these kind of problems of getting players to play within a set time frame on one server, imagine how it would be if games could be played at every single hour of the day across 3 servers.
Koreans don't have any online tournaments.. so I don't know why you're even trying to compare.
Not sure what's so difficult about letting them playing at a more proper hour (i.e. night in US/morning in korea, or night in korea/morning in US) then casting from the replay. Seems really logical.. I don't blame NASL for not accomodating them in the end, and I don't blame the korean teams for withdrawing. Not sure why people in here are giving either side crap about it really.
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On August 13 2011 00:57 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:41 tripper688 wrote:
Start of filming =/= start of broadcast. The fact that NASL went ahead to start filming and production of a season where the status of 1/4 of their players were in a contractual state of limbo without contingency is poor organization. Regardless of their negotiation tactics, everything they did was completely legal and not out of the ordinary for business practices. The fact that you assume they had a non binding agreement to play it out doesn't mean anything. They may have, they may not have, point is, it doesn't matter because it's non binding. You're right, I cannot blame negotiations falling apart on NASL. Negotiations don't always work and I never did, nor was it my intention. What I did say fell on NASL is the responsibility to get their tournament together regardless. Example : You are a wedding planner. You have a wedding in 2 weeks. All of a sudden, your contract negotiations with your desired florist and band go up in flames. It's not your fault or their fault that the negotiations failed, that stuff happens. It IS still on you to get the wedding together and to have contingencies. Understand my point now? The fact that they seem to have not prepared any contingency and are scrambling with possible delays in production implies that something, somewhere, someone screwed up in the organizational chain of command. Someone assumed something and when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me both right? That's what I mean by something going wrong with NASL. I'm not blaming them for the negotiations falling apart. That's the nature of negotiations, not everything works out. It is not SC2con's fault that NASL went ahead with production without securing contracts or backups. It's NASL's JOB as the event organizer to get that stuff together. It's SC2con's JOB as Korean representatives to make demands for their players. No one is to blame for negotiations falling apart. However, not having a contingency, not securing contracts before production, the only people to blame for that NASL. Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this makes my position clear.
Start of filming > broadcast. Broadcast date means absolutely nothing as it involves the Koreans in no way whatsoever. It is their responsibility to meet the filming dates because that's when games are played, not broadcast date...that is arbitrarily decided by NASL. I agree with you that NASL should have been more cautious proceeding into Season 2....however, it seems that reason for caution was already given too late (1-2 weeks prior to the start), AND it seems that SC2Con made some kind of agreement to proceed. Yes, the agreement may be non-binding as you said, BUT that makes no difference. All that means is NASL can't sue them; it doesn't mean that it didn't lead NASL to believe that it was okay to proceed. Nonbinding contracts almost always precede binding ones. You can't say that it's NASL having poor organization, when you are conceding the fact that there was probably a non-binding agreement involved. You are basically saying, "It's okay for them to tell NASL to start, because it was not a signed contract. It's NASL's fault for assuming they want to participate when they said they did." Doesn't make sense. Also, PS, verbal contracts do have some legal weight. Yes someone did assume, but what I am saying, there was some weight of responsibility that fell on SC2Con to clear assumptions, which they didn't seem to have done. They also seem to have purposefully delayed their final decision to put NASL in a tight spot intentionally, which although a good business tactic, is not really a good or fair one. That's all I'm saying. I there was to be a boycott, it should have been issued long beforehand to give the NASL more leeway with their negotiations, and more time to make reparations. It seems that NASL is fine even with a problem this late, which means their organization was perfectly set up. It's just not PROFESSIONAL to do that to a tournament, even if they can manage their way around it. In your wedding example, yes, it sucks when that happens, and as a wedding organizer you have to proceed regardless. But is it PROFESSIONAL that the flower person pulls out last minute? No, it's not.
You're ASSUMING they made an agreement. There is NOTHING to say that both sides were not negotiating in good faith but reached an impasse at which point, the Koreans made good on their threat to pull out. A threat that NASL had received at the very least a couple of weeks in advance. I did not concede that there was a non binding contract. I said regardless of whether or not there was, it's still non binding and it was the sole decision of NASL to start filming without contracts. There is nothing actually stated that SC2con went ahead and said "Yes we will agree, just start production, it's ok." You're taking the reaction of NASL losing a quarter of their roster (obviously disappointment and shock) and turning that into SC2con deceived NASL. Maybe NASL figured they could get it done and didn't want to delay production? Was it fair to Koreans that NASL scheduled their matches at 4am so other players could get easier times? Once again, I'm not arguing about the cause of the breakdown of negotiations. That kind of stuff happens. I'm saying the responsibility of getting the tournament back up and running lies SOLELY with NASL given the fact that SC2con hasn't actually done anything wrong. In my wedding example, is it professional that the florist pulls out last moment? No it's not. But if we're making a direct analogy, you would have had to have been a pretty crappy boss to begin with considering the scheduling and production issues the Koreans had with season 1. Neither side comes out of this smelling like roses but unless some crazy news pops up, the responsibility lies solely with NASL to get this thing back running.
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Let me rewrite the OP to make it more diplomatic.
After many hours spent working with our sponsors and writing proposals, it is with our great displeasure regret to announce that Koreans from oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime will not participate in the NASL.
At the very beginning of the first season, all players and team managers were sent a rule set and contract that outlined exactly how the league would work and what the NASL would provide to its players. The NASL agreed to provide a $500 travel stipend to each player who advanced to the Grand Finals, in addition to shuttle service to and from the airport and venue. This contract was signed by all players and team managers.
We made the offer to all teams and players that we could handle hotel booking and travel (to and from the airport) for the Grand Finals and subtract those prices from player travel stipends. Almost every player took us up on this offer. The week before the Grand Finals, Koreans expressed difficulty paying for their travel, and asked us to buy their plane tickets. We solved this problem by offering to buy their tickets and subtract the cost from prize winnings and whatever was left of the stipend.
In preparation forBefore the start of Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened wanted to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands conditions were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties].
In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. As we need to start the season on schedule, we had to start filming with the issues at hand. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable they cannot agree to our offer, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league.
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation.
We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal.
my comment:
irrelevant because NASL was notified during preparation of Season 2. If that is considered the final hour to notify NASL, please enlightening me when will be a better time?
We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate.
my comment:
It is an assumption on NASL part to make it sound like SC2Con is denying koreans from playing in NASL. We do not know if the players are actually complaining to SC2Con and SC2Con is simply representing them.
While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.
my comment:
Usually when you respect somebody statement/opinion, you don't add BS at the end.
While this does mean that NASL Season 2 will be slightly delayed, we remain steadfast in our commitment to eSports – we will broadcast high quality games every day and bring you some of the very best play the world has to offer.
-- North American Star League
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On August 13 2011 01:06 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:00 Gurblechev wrote:
It is likely that the embarrassingly bad production has something to do with this decision.
NASL was so bad it makes everyone involved with it look pathetic. I don't see why Koreans would want to tarnish their image by associating with a kiddie amateur hour. Especially when there is the possibility they will even lose money in addition to all their time and effort.
SlayerS has paid for team members to attend MLG. BoxeR pulling out shows that Koreans are abandoning NASL because it is humiliating to associate with, not because of financial limitations.
They are probably just too polite to publicly shame NASL and a dispute over travel expenses provides a tactful way to bow out. I wouldn't say the production was embarrassingly bad. It wasn't good, but that's a pretty steep claim. Also, it seems that many Koreans did and still do want to participate in the Season. They are just worried about getting their players there, not "tarnishing their image." Some players are even now looking for ways around SC2Con to participate. Boxer and NASL are on good terms so I am not even sure where you got that impression. I think you should definitely reconsider a lot of your post. Read through the thread a little.
Well it would be embarrassing to anyone with a sense of shame.
And why did Boxer withdraw, then?
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On August 13 2011 00:59 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:53 Misery[BH] wrote:On August 13 2011 00:41 VillageBC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:11 Misery[BH] wrote:
I totally agree with your opinion on the skill differential making some games boring, however in the end, it usually results in the best players pitted against each other. I like the idea of competition, and I believe that North American players can easily be on par with Koreans if they had the same dedication and passion. Until they can do that, I'm personally content with seeing the stomping until we get to an awesome finals/semi finals. I think in the end it will only promote the people getting stomped to either improve, or get out.
I don't want to watch Starcraft games forever knowing that we (NA/EU) have little to no players on par with Koreans, I want to see them improve and be able to compete against them. Globally involved tournaments like NASL season 1 often draw more interest from everyone as well, making it much more profitable financially and it will continue to grow. It's a shame things didn't work out this season. We're either going to see a tournament of fairly equal skill distribution, or some foreign players are going to get a chance to shine and show that they have improved, because there are still some very formidable Koreans left. If NA/EU had the infrastructure Koreans did for training, then they could easily be on par with them. As it stands, it's just getting started with EG house, Reign house coming, any others? A few months with proper practice schedule and training methods should do wonders. But even that will only maintain or slow the skill gap developing between Koreans and everyone else. What they lack for money, they sure have in proper training infrastructure setup that is not easy to replicate elsewhere. I'm somewhat worried that if Koreans continue at there pace, with only a few notable foreigners able to keep pace. It will hurt SC2 esports growth as a whole. People want hometown heroes to win and if it's shown repeatedly they are not in the same ball park will the more casual fans continue to watch? RIght now it's interesting to see which non-Koreans can compete with them or steal an upset. But that becomes less interesting as the skill gap grows and it will for the time being at least. I am actually quite disappointed in non-Korean players apparent lack of utilization of technology to atleast try and stay competitive. Maybe they are, and just because I'm a fan I'm not seeing inside it. But skype, ventrillo, streaming all allow teams to setup a training routine without being in the same location and communicate. There is no reason for any pro-team that I can see not to put aside that 8hr-12hr block of time 5 days a week where they all are online together practicing with each other. Yes, it's not as good as everyone being in the same house and able to just chat and share ideas but I would expect it to be a far more effective method then laddering 4hrs a day as practice. I think North American players have even better opportunities to be progamers. Some of these houses are new, but some have been around for awhile. Teams in NA are easier to market and attract sponsors, you can pay players salaries so they don't have any financial worries, their only task is to practice and become better. Idra has already trained and lived in Korea, and it shows. If the infrastructure isn't available to you, go find it and improve. I'm on board with you and wanting the hometown heroes to win, I'm usually rooting for the foreigner. Koreans may get exponentially better and this could be another Broodwar scenario where Koreans outshine every single North American, but so far SC2 has been a lot better in comparing skill differences. Every opportunity is present for NA/EU players, but in some cases the dedication is lacking. I hope there's more incentive for players to close in on that skill gap. Paying people a salary to be good against other North American players but suck against Koreans makes no sense to me. It'll also immediately abolish any chance of closing that skill gap. Bad players who don't take professional gaming serious shouldn't be paid. I agree with you, the opportunity is present and I hope they can shine through in some upcoming events. Not to take away from the few that are kicking some ass though. It's easy to spot those who take this seriously and have the dedication to be the best. (Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain, Huk, etc) I think they have better opportunities to be progamers but maybe not Code S level progamers. While the houses are appearing and there is a player base, there isn't enough high level competition. Practicing Kr vs Na is night and day with the differences in ladder and practice partner level. You bring up IdrA. He is one player I would say has arguably regressed/stagnated from the time he left Korea. Consistent Code S Zerg with great ZvT peaks, wins an MLG...and at this point, he is barely keeping up with Code A players. Several foreigners have equaled and/or surpassed him. This coincides his decision to move back to the states as well as practice 3 hours a day. I would hesitate to put him on the list with HuK and Naniwa. Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:53 bonifaceviii wrote:
NASL might have been somewhat optimistic that negotiations would eventually come to an agreement by starting production. Otherwise, it seems like the parties negotiated in good faith and simply couldn't reach something that was mutually beneficial.
It's unfortunate, but this shit happens sometimes in business. Completely true. Also doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, it's still up to NASL to get the tournament up and if they don't it's on them.
I partially agree, actually being in Korea sure would help out your game. Huk is doing quite well. I'm being hopefully that there will be more opportunities to make available that quality practice. Lots of foreigners are going to Korea now, I'm quite surprised.
I can't argue that Idra's results aren't as good as they used to be, and maybe he is a little sloppy anymore, but he is still ages ahead of your typical North American progamer Zerg and in my opinion still on a somewhat even field with Koreans. I'll be more faithful when he starts winning again though.
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Possible solution. NASL could reduce the number of seasons and prize pool and use the extra cash to pay for hotel and travel expenses should they reach the ro16. This would "hopefully" solve the NASLs problem. Sure, you can't always get what you want but a $50,000 prize pool is excessive when the same players will participate in a tournament for $5,000. Money is money and this is what the players play for. Koreans did not stop playing in the GSL when the GSL dropped the prize pool $25,000 less and they won't stop playing in the NASL either.
Reduce the prize pool or number of seasons and use that the money to support the travel/hotel expenses for the koreans. That way more money won't have to be spend and everybody will still be satisfied at the end of the day.
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On August 13 2011 01:06 PHILtheTANK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:34 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 00:22 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 12 2011 23:55 tripper688 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:34 chatuka wrote:
I disagree, I think qualifiers carry a very severe degree of commitment, especially considering the fact that when you qualify, you take a spot in the season that many others would have wanted.
I would say boycotting after season 2 started was purely unacceptable. There is no reason why the boycott could not have been issued a month before, week before, etc. which would have given more time for NASL to find replacements.
The reason why they didn't is that they didn't want their negotiator (NASL) to have very much power in their decision, and make them more willing to yield as it puts them against the wall.
If the boycott was issued a month ago, I don't' think NASL would have tried as hard to get Koreans in the league. They made some pretty big concessions...I guess it was just not enough for the Koreans. You can disagree but it doesn't make you correct. Unless you have a contract from the qualifiers explicitly obligating participation in the upcoming league, they aren't bound to do anything. Invites are turned down all the time. Even Code A and Code S spots are played for and then discarded. I fail to see how it's any different for NASL. You say it's unacceptable for Koreans to boycott after Season 2 starts. How is that relevant when the announced start date was 8/30/11? Unless you count qualifiers as when the events start in which case, that's still the fault of NASL for not scheduling ANY down time between 2 seasons to work out the kinks in their event. They notified NASL of their grievances and their threat to withdraw in preparation for season 2. Doesn't sound to me like they got together a day before the tournament starts (at the end of this month...) to say pay us more or we leave and you're screwed. The fact that NASL decided to go ahead with a tournament and start filming and preparations without finishing contracts for a quarter of their players and having no contingency has nothing to do with Koreans. That's just sloppy organization and management. I'm not sure how your arguments have any legs to stand on. And why do you think you are in a position of correctness? I read the OP. It states that Koreans expressed issues prior to season 2 starting, but were still in negotiation with NASL. They made their FINAL decision to boycott AFTER NASL started filming season 2. Could this decision not be made any sooner? I believe it could have, and I believe it was intentionally not done so because it is a very common business practice to put your negotiator in a tight position and more yielding to demands. I've also assumed there was some agreement, whether contracted or verbal, that made NASL continue filming season 2 despite the negotiations being ongoing. It seems to me that the boycott caught NASL off guard, which implies that this was not an expected outcome. And I think NASL would have expected it had the SC2Con been more explicit and outspoken about not willing to participate.. The truth is I don't think they were because I really don't think they DON'T want to participate in the NASL. I think they do, but are playing hard-ball. Perhaps NASL should have been more cautious about what's going to happen with the situation, but, it's a two way street. You cannot blame this entirely on NASL and say it's sloppy organization - organization is not the question here at all. There is no connection between what is happening and NASL's organization, and to make a connection is to reach for straws. After all, NASL seems to have already taken up to finding replacements and has not issued a delay of season 2, which implies their organization did account for bad luck. It's just crappy that they were put in this situation in the first place, when it could have been avoided. If SC2Con had no intention about playing in Season 2, it is a point that should have been made well aware to the NASL. The boycott should have been decided much earlier on, not after filming. There is no good excuse for that. It seems to me that negotiations and issues were presented early on, but the SC2Con lead NASL to believe it would be resolved in time for season 2. Both are to blame then....NASL for not being cautious and SC2Con for not being more expedient and transparent. The whole deal is called negotiation. Have to tell u the same thing that u said: U can't put the blame on one party for having the negotiation not work. (ie. SC2Con in your case) Not on ethical level, and certainly not on 'legal' level. For ur last paragraph, NASL could've just as easily mislead SC2Con into thinking the same. You're wrong, you CAN put all the blame on one side in a negotiation. SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer, SC2Con said "We want you to pay all costs".... NASL increased their offer again, to the highest limit they could go within their budget, and SC2Con said "No, we want you to pay all costs." NASL tried to negotiate, they tried to make concessions so the koreans could come, but its clear that either SC2Con had no plan to let their players play from the beginning, or they are just fond of making completely unreasonable demands.
That comes from the difference in their views.
SC2Con made such demand because they felt that their players participating in the tournament had significant monetary and other benefit for NASL.
Not to mention the fact that their profitability in NASL may not have seemed as appealing for SC2Con.
Now if you feel that view isn't deserved - that's your personal call.
I don't think anyone can simply state that SC2Con is wrong to think in such way.
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On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players.
SC2 in korea just do not even have the fraction of the money that available to BW players, the koreans sc2 scene just got no cash.
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On August 13 2011 01:07 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:05 LuciferSC wrote:On August 13 2011 01:03 busbarn wrote:
Is the avarage korean/average sponsor economy so bad that they can't send people to events? I mean, they are no superstars, they should expect to pay it all by themselves. SC2 teams are definitely not very strong when it comes to finance atm. However that is not why they pulled out. They pulled out because they felt the tourney isn't profitable for them or for their players. Ok one US dollar is approx: 1,200 won (or near it) How could winning the grand prize or even a lower prize and then having it transferred to won NOT be profitable? Things just aren't adding up here. Maybe there is more to the story.
Just because exchanging US currency to Korean currency ends up in bigger numeric number, doesn't necessarily mean taking US currency to Korea is more profitable than winning the same amount in Korean won.
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Hopefully if NASL doesnt need to spend thousands of dollars on the koreans they can use that money to run the finals
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On August 13 2011 01:09 sc2guy wrote:Let me rewrite the OP to make it more diplomatic.After many hours spent working with our sponsors and writing proposals, it is with our great displeasure regret to announce that Koreans from oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime will not participate in the NASL. At the very beginning of the first season, all players and team managers were sent a rule set and contract that outlined exactly how the league would work and what the NASL would provide to its players. The NASL agreed to provide a $500 travel stipend to each player who advanced to the Grand Finals, in addition to shuttle service to and from the airport and venue. This contract was signed by all players and team managers. We made the offer to all teams and players that we could handle hotel booking and travel (to and from the airport) for the Grand Finals and subtract those prices from player travel stipends. Almost every player took us up on this offer. The week before the Grand Finals, Koreans expressed difficulty paying for their travel, and asked us to buy their plane tickets. We solved this problem by offering to buy their tickets and subtract the cost from prize winnings and whatever was left of the stipend. In preparation forBefore the start of Season 2, it was made known to us by Mr.Chae of the GSL that the Korean teams threatened wanted to withdraw from the NASL unless several demands conditions were made: 1) pay for 100% of travel and accommodation cost for the Grand Finals and 2) remove the security deposit. The concerns of the Korean teams, as expressed to us by Mr.Chae were that it is difficult for Koreans to travel to the USA given their generally lower level of sponsorship, and secondly that they don’t think Koreans should have to pay to enter the event [despite the fact that we refund all security deposits, making the league free to play barring any penalties]. In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. As we need to start the season on schedule, we had to start filming with the issues at hand. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable they cannot agree to our offer, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league. We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend). We feel that, for a 1/16 chance at winning up to $40,000, $2,000 is more than fair accommodation expense to get players to come. Despite our best efforts, the Korean teams still have declined participation. We are disappointed that the Korean Committee waited until the final hour, not only to make these demands but also to notify us of their withdrawal.Show nested quote +my comment:
irrelevant because NASL was notified during preparation of Season 2. If that is considered the final hour to notify NASL, please enlightening me when will be a better time? We would like to apologize to our fans who wanted to see these players participate in the NASL and to the Korean players who hoped to participate. Show nested quote +my comment:
It is an assumption on NASL part to make it sound like SC2Con is denying koreans from playing in NASL. We do not know if the players are actually complaining to SC2Con and SC2Con is simply representing them. While we do respect the Committee’s decision, we wish it had been made in a more timely manner that did not interrupt the start of our season.Show nested quote +my comment:
Usually when you respect somebody statement/opinion, you don't add BS at the end. While this does mean that NASL Season 2 will be slightly delayed, we remain steadfast in our commitment to eSports – we will broadcast high quality games every day and bring you some of the very best play the world has to offer. -- North American Star League
Yo, NASL plz hire this guy o.o
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EPT
