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On July 24 2011 03:03 YeYo wrote:
LOL @ pheonix threatining to leave team why because he thinks he a hot shot korean?
Im sure there are 50 other Koreans that would easily agree to those terms.
Reign doesnt need Pheonix, Pheonix doesnt need Reign.
He never was a part of the team, the contract was never signed. He was simply asking for more before joining.
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United States23455 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:16 amazingoopah wrote:
wtf is with all the drama recently.... guys not wanting to sign contracts, 'budding organizations' trying to steal players from other teams...
The contract thing really isn't that big of a deal. Signing a guy from Korea must be pretty difficult. He has to totally rearrange his life and it's especially hard when the Reign house isn't up and running. Add in the Korean military service and it sounds almost impossible. You can't blame either side in this situation.
The organization thing is the really interesting point. I hope this is expanded upon.
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On July 24 2011 03:13 Chicane wrote:
Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him?
Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it.
I agree with you in that I don't think they meant to portray Phoenix in a negative light. I do believe that the OP could be written a bit more delicately, but given desrow's impromptu post, they had to cobble this together extraordinarily quickly, and it seems like they wanted to be very transparent with the events after the leak. As for the negativity ... "demand" and "threaten" are very aggressive words? That's all I can find.
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On July 24 2011 03:10 Enhancer_ wrote:
Saying there's a "budding organization" trying to screw around with the SC2 team scene without naming it is just going to stir up the community and cause unnecessary accusations against numerous teams, which may or may not be responsible.
If you don't wish to name the organization, then just not mentioning their shady dealings is far more preferable. I'd assume that other teams are having their players approached by this organization and have smartly chosen not to reveal the situation since they know it's just unprofessional.
Otherwise, it's a good post that explains things very well. Thanks.
disagree
bring on the speculation and theories
SC2 soap operas have been very entertaining so far
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United States4796 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:17 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:14 DivinO wrote:On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote:
Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted. I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up. I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective. Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun... Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!".
Pardon my assumptions in the explanation; Spades clears it up in a post sometime below mine.
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On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote:
It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
.....I can't tell if you're serious or trolling.
EG would in no way be described as a budding start-up team, they are one of the most established long running teams involved in SC2 at the moment.
Sen was approched by more then one team seeing if he was renewing as his contract runs out in a couple of weeks, that's perfectly normal.
Milkis frowned upon the EG/Puma deal as he disliked it from a cultural point of view, nothing to do with fears of EG being on a recruitment spree.
FXOpen disliked it because it could set a negative tone between Western and Korean teams which would make future deals, partnerships harder to form and could spark the creation of Kespa 2.0.
Not everything is a giant conspiracy, this was just a player and a team not being able to agree on final terms. It happens, you can put away the tin-foil hat and the pitchfork now.
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Now that I think about it, why would Phoenix verbally agree to the contract and then not sign the same contract?
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On July 24 2011 03:16 amazingoopah wrote:
wtf is with all the drama recently.... guys not wanting to sign contracts, 'budding organizations' trying to steal players from other teams...
It's not really drama. Phoenix didn't want to sign the contract because he was looking for additional terms (i.e. was still trying to negotiate a better deal), and there's nothing wrong with other organizations trying to pick up a still-unsigned player, even if they're in talks to get signed. Think of it like an auction, where organizations are bidding for a player.
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On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote:
It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
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On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote:
So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
As I read (cuz i guess you didnt) the negotiations were over, and thats why he was announced as reign, he should have had sign the contract but he didnt. He is in fault there. Phoenix acted in a very greedy and dispicable way towards Reign, thinking he can say something and then just toy with teams all around and look for the best payer, thats unhonest and thats wrong.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote:
so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
You are completly wrong sir. Actually this is the professional thing, to inform the public with the truth. I dont think there are press conferences for this stuff in e-sports. You just make a post in the biggest site about the game.
Phoenix agreed to something and then backed out, trying to get more, thats wrong, period.
And in my personal opinion, phoenix its not among the best koreans players, so i dont know what he was thinking about getting flown back and forth every 3 months, hes not that good to get that kind of treatment. *cough* hes not nestea *cough*
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On July 24 2011 03:20 Looky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote:
It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods. whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
Colleges can't do that. There are very very strict recruitment rules with the NCAA as far as I know.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
My popcorn machine is going to have a power outrage like this.
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:04 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote:
i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret!
Tyler demands information, FEED IT TO HIM
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On July 24 2011 03:18 DivinO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:17 Mordiford wrote:On July 24 2011 03:14 DivinO wrote:On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote:
Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted. I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up. I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective. Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun... Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!". Pardon my assumptions in the explanation; Spades clears it up in a post sometime below mine.
It sounds a bit iffy, not to question Spades, and it's still breaking from standard practice and in this case it bit them in the ass. So in the end, keep with standard practice. It's quite silly to go for, "Oh, yeah I'll sign it later, announce that I'm part of the team today".
I feel that would be very silly to attempt, and it's even sillier that it worked.
On July 24 2011 03:20 MadJack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote:
So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light. As I read (cuz i guess you didnt) the negotiations were over, and thats why he was announced as reign, he should have had sign the contract but he didnt. He is in fault there. Phoenix acted in a very greedy and dispicable way towards Reign, thinking he can say something and then just toy with teams all around and look for the best payer, thats unhonest and thats wrong. Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote:
so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL You are completly wrong sir. Actually this is the professional thing, to inform the public with the truth. I dont think there are press conferences for this stuff in e-sports. You just make a post in the biggest site about the game. Phoenix agreed to something and then backed out, trying to get more, thats wrong, period. And in my personal opinion, phoenix its not among the best koreans players, so i dont know what he was thinking about getting flown back and forth every 3 months, hes not that good to get that kind of treatment. *cough* hes not nestea *cough*
And once again, I think that's very silly. This is also why it's quite frowned upon to talk about negotiations with a player in public. If I want to ask for a $100,000 increase before I sign a contract, and a team tells me I'm out of my mind for expecting that, then we go separate ways and no dirty laundry is aired, he has every right to request whatever he wants prior to signing.
This was an error on Reign's part since they had the rest of their team contracted but decided to take one player on their word, sure it was wrong of Phoenix to change his mind afterwards but once again we're left with one side of the story, and based on this side, if he's not signed, he's not signed. This isn't like the Puma situation where everyone on the team was unsigned and it was running on good faith, the entire team in the foreign eSports scene is generally contracted, Phoenix was just announced on good faith, which is bad practice.
That is the error on Reign's part.
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United States4796 Posts
On July 24 2011 03:22 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:18 DivinO wrote:On July 24 2011 03:17 Mordiford wrote:On July 24 2011 03:14 DivinO wrote:On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote:
Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted. I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up. I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective. Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun... Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!". Pardon my assumptions in the explanation; Spades clears it up in a post sometime below mine. It sounds a bit iffy, not to question Spades, and it's still breaking from standard practice and in this case it bit them in the ass. So in the end, keep with standard practice. It's quite silly to go for, "Oh, yeah I'll sign it later, announce that I'm part of the team today". I feel that would be very silly to attempt, and it's even sillier that it worked.
Glad we agree.
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On July 24 2011 03:20 Looky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote:
It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods. whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
Yeah, that's called against the rules according to NCAA. I like how you point to college recruiting, which is another process that can be manipulative and exploitative.
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On July 24 2011 03:19 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:
Now that I think about it, why would Phoenix verbally agree to the contract and then not sign the same contract?
Happens all the time in negotiations. People or companies initially verbally agree to a set of terms, then after sleeping on it reverse their decision. Sometimes it's because they forgot something they wanted in the terms, sometimes it's because they think up something else they wanted, or something important happened to get overlooked, etc.
In Phoenix's case, seems like after verbally agreeing, he realized he wanted to go to Anaheim and remembered he had to deal with the potential of being recruited for military service.
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On July 24 2011 03:21 Wunder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:04 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote:
i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret! Tyler demands information, FEED IT TO HIM
Tyler just wants more drama 
You know what would be awesome?
Just one piece of SC2 news about some deal not working out / players and teams not agreeing where everyone didn't try to demonize one of the sides.
Negotations fell through at the last second, that's perfectly normal. Nobody is being "greedy", nobody is being "despicable", nobody is being unprofessional or whatever other terms people are rushing to throw in.
Phoenix wanted more then Reign was prepared to offer so he declined to sign, end of story.
Too bad for Reign, I hope future efforts to expand work out better!
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It doesn't sound like a big deal.
Two parties were negotiating over a contract. They couldn't agree on all the details and therefore the contract wasn't signed. Happens.
Sad for both, Reign and Phoenix, that they didn't find together.
But I'm totally interested in this 3rd party that tries to buy players from other teams.
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EPT
