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On July 24 2011 03:31 Mordiford wrote:No, he sounds like someone who has different priorities and commitments than what Reign expected which is why he didn't sign the contract. Morals of the Story:- Make your players sign contracts(Learnt during the Puma situation). - Make sure your players have signed the contract before you say, "We have X player", because you don't really have that player. - Eat your vegetables.
This, good luck to both parties. I don't understand the obsession with teams posting every sticky detail on situations like this. All that needed to be said was "Phoenix agreed to our terms, but reconsidered before signing the contract and both parties decided to part ways." Most of this post (in spite of the desRow leak) was complete fluff, including the bit about the "budding organization" which was completely irrelevant to the situation and was purely drama bait.
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On July 24 2011 03:25 Ezze wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:13 Chicane wrote:On July 24 2011 03:01 Ezze wrote:On July 24 2011 02:54 arbitrageur wrote:On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote:
so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL Mods please ban. Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them. Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt. Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team? Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him? Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it. Some excerpts from the first couple of paragraphs should be enough to point out RGN's desire to portray Phoenix in a negative light. -- Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote:
It’s not my intent to portray Phoenix in a negative light but it appears necessary to address a few points. I will do my best to leave my personal feelings out of this.
Phoenix refused to sign his contract, despite the rest of the team has signing theirs.
Phoenix also threatened to leave the team unless we met a few demands.
-- Not their intent to hurt his image, but it appears necessary? (based on what doucheRow did?) Do their best to leave personal feelings out?? (oh boy please don't tell us what you really think!) He refused to sign, even though all others did!!! He threatened the team!!!
? I'm still not seeing it. First of all... he did not threaten the team as you stated... he threatened to leave the team because his negotiations weren't met just like any other player would do when a team is trying to sign them. They threaten to not sign with the team unless they get what they want.
As for refusing to sign the contract, that pretty much falls under the same category if he didn't want to follow through with what he was offered. I don't see how that makes him look bad.
Either way, those are simply the facts. Looking past the fact that I don't see how that makes Phoenix look bad (that he was trying to negotiate in his best interests... what a surprise) you have to keep in mind that they didn't try to slander him. Hell, there wasn't even a personal opinion in the part you quoted. At the end of the day though, if you really feel after you were given facts without personal bias, and you feel it makes a player look worse, then you think that player looks worse because of the decisions they made, not because of what the team did.
If a player were to constantly harass other teammates and possibly even physically assault them in frustration, and then the team announced they were releasing the player for that reason, would you blame the team for making that public and putting the player in a bad light, or would you blame the player for acting so poorly?
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On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote:
I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
Contracts are slowly turning into a must for all - unless we want to be like FPS teams
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Big shame. In the end, you guys didn't eye-to-eye business and player-wise.
Hope you guys find someone equally as good or better :3
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What the OP described sounds like standard contract negotiations to me (albeit with a ridiculous anti-Phoenix slant), in which case I can't really find either party at fault.
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What organzation is trying to snipe players from reign and FXO? That sounds a little bit shady, i guess we will have to wait and see. If pheonix ends up on a team in the next few weeks we can probably assume its them.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
First of all, until there's a signature on the dotted line, there is no agreement. Negotiations broke down and a deal was not made. It's as simple as that. This thread comes across as very petty and vindictive.
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On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote:
I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
If only for tax purposes, how the hell does that work? Unless you're referring to teams that don't pay any salaries...
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On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote:
so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Lol didn't take long for the drama bomb to get started xD
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Starting become a trend that seems like every other day we get some sort of drama on TL.
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I don't really get what's bad about "not signing despite rest of the team did". Pressuring people into signing generally isn't a good thing to do, I'd say.
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On July 24 2011 03:37 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote:
I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice. It's stupid practice, if isn't abnormal then it says a lot about the state of pro SC2.
It doesn't say anything new. The amount of support given to players in most "esports organizations" is so miniscule that there's not much incentive to sign a contract which could open the player to legal liability. A lot of the contracts have ridiculous restrictions that require you to pay the organization for things deemed detrimental to its reputation. I was involved with the check-six organization 6 years ago and just went along without ever signing a contract for about a year with them because all I was getting out of the deal was a plane ticket and tournament entry and my legal liability could possibly have been in the thousands of dollars if I had broken rules in the contract about representing the organization, drinking alcohol, etc.
It's dumb to commit to an organization or for an organization to commit resources without a contract. However, most of these teams have boilerplate contracts and the cost for both parties to hire lawyers to make sure they're not getting screwed is prohibitive unless you're salaried or being flown to every tournament or having living expenses taken care of. I don't think many sc2 players are in that situation.
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On July 24 2011 03:04 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote:
i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret!
Yea they should be called out if they are doing something shady like that 
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Reign is not personally insulting Phoenix or anything.
They're stating the difference of expectations that led to Phoenix leaving the team.
Not a big deal and it's nice to get their side of the issue.
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Well the OP made it very clear so no need to worry anyone. I never knew that desrow leaked it at all. But 2 decisions were made and i guess it was the best way for both parts i guess?
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On July 24 2011 03:51 scorch- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:37 Soap wrote:On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote:
I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice. It's stupid practice, if isn't abnormal then it says a lot about the state of pro SC2. It doesn't say anything new. The amount of support given to players in most "esports organizations" is so miniscule that there's not much incentive to sign a contract which could open the player to legal liability. A lot of the contracts have ridiculous restrictions that require you to pay the organization for things deemed detrimental to its reputation. I was involved with the check-six organization 6 years ago and just went along without ever signing a contract for about a year with them because all I was getting out of the deal was a plane ticket and tournament entry and my legal liability could possibly have been in the thousands of dollars if I had broken rules in the contract about representing the organization, drinking alcohol, etc. It's dumb to commit to an organization or for an organization to commit resources without a contract. However, most of these teams have boilerplate contracts and the cost for both parties to hire lawyers to make sure they're not getting screwed is prohibitive unless you're salaried or being flown to every tournament or having living expenses taken care of. I don't think many sc2 players are in that situation.
Fine, but then no one should whine if other organization shows up with a better offer. This "poaching" bullshit that has been running on TL recently gives me nausea.
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phoenix isnt even a top tier player anyways. u dont lose much reign. but u guys really need to get some more exposure cuz i forgot about team reign. hopefully u guys do well in anaheim.
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Could this mysterious organization be the overarching source for dramas recently? haha.
All the best to Reign though ! xD
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to those of you who say that they shouldnt have given out details I have to ask: are you new to tl or the sc2 community as a whole? I see you have adequate amount of posts to know(because if you didnt know then why are you even speaking your mind on this and who is throwing dirt and what not?) but you seem to not know what kind of shit happens when you just say "negotiations didnt pan out".
What happens is you get 200 pages of people making up all kinds of shit about what happened and who is to blame and sooner or later the most paranoid and ridiculous(not to mention just plain stupid) reasons are thought up and in the end the organization is blamed more or less and the player looks like an angel(especially when they are korean). That's the current state of the sc2 community when it comes to these kind of things. Hello and welcome.
Edit: If you think Phoenix was portrayed in a negative way it's because some of the things he did was kind of not so good, not OP giving them a negative slant. Youre blinded from all the drama to even pick apart what is fact and what is biased opinion.
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Don't really see the drama here. Phoenix and Reign couldn't work out an agreement that would work for both sides so now he won't be on the team. Seems like their was some misunderstandings on both sides but it happens. Compared to the earlier drama of the week this doesn't seem like a big issue.
EDIT: Kind of interested to find out who this "new budding organization" is though.
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EPT
