It was our intent to make a statement in regards to Phoenix leaving Team Reign on Monday, but given today’s unexpected release of information I decided to quickly run through a list of facts. It’s not my intent to portray Phoenix in a negative light but it appears necessary to address a few points. Here is the summary of events regarding Phoenix; I will do my best to leave my personal feelings out of this.
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
Phoenix refused to sign his contract, despite the rest of the team has signing theirs.
Phoenix also threatened to leave the team unless we met a few demands.* He demanded to attend MLG Anaheim. Once we discovered his desire to go to MLG Anaheim however, we told him we would try to make it work, despite the fact it wasn’t something we initially negotiated. In the end, it was not fiscally responsible for us to send him and he wouldn’t have been able to compete anyway, since he had no player pass. Additionally, Phoenix insisted he be brought to the US by August 1st, even though the team house would not be ready and he had no visa or a place to stay.
*As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign.
For the past two months we have research how Phoenix would be able to stay in the United States for 9 months or longer through student visas and other visas. Unfortunately, Phoenix wanted no part of this and only wanted to come to the team if he could be flown back and forth to the US and Korea every 3 months (which would be a $1500 expense added on top of all other travel fees). We told him this was not financially feasible for us.
Phoenix and I talked for a few hours Wednesday night about the options for him to come to the United States. He said he did not want to stay in the US for longer than 3 months because he was expecting his military summons and did not want to become a fugitive in his own country. He said that it would be impossible for him to stay in the US for 9 months + at a time because he needed to return home often so he could go to the military if they called him.
I won’t pretend to know the details of Korean compulsory military service, but I am not going to force someone to come to the United States if they don't wish to.
I wanted desperately to work with Phoenix and told him we could bring him during the month of August and have him go to MLG Raleigh, but he did not consider that sufficient.
That summarizes most of the events of the past month.
I would like to make this clear: we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
*Sidenote: Phoenix agreed to the terms of the contract, but then never signed it. This is where the trouble came.
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
On July 24 2011 02:48 aquanda wrote: Sounds like a pretty reasonable decision on Reign's part. Unfortunate that it got leaked prior to your official press release.
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
Well he never signed the contract so he wasn`t officially tied to the team. They just can`t meet his expectations. How is that unprofessional?
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
What are you going on about? No contract was signed, Phoenix was still in negotiation mode as every other person who has a brain would.
Thanks for being clear on the whole situation. I appreciated the fact that you said that you had no plans to send him to Anaheim rather than play it off by saying "oh there were no more player passes available so we couldn't send him, otherwise we would." It's unfortunate to see he won't be on the team, but you guys look like a strong team nevertheless.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
I don't think Phoenix was put in a bad light. They just said his intentions. I personally don't think less of Phoenix for wanting to live his life in a specific way, and wanting to travel back to Korea. I'm not sure what you felt was negative, unless I missed something.
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
What are you going on about? No contract was signed, Phoenix was negotiating as every other person who has a brain would.
Ya I agree with this... he wanted to get as much as he could from the offer, or go somewhere else. It seems like a smart decision. You wouldn't want to just sit back and take the first offer you are given.
I think teams need to get this contractual stuff sorted out prior to making announcements to be honest, then from there, if they feel like releasing a player from their contract it's up to them.
It really just sounds like Phoenix was announced as a part of Reign before he signed a contract, and if this announcement hadn't been made until actual negotiations concluded, there would be much less, if any drama at all.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
We never intended to post this, but the events that have occured(desrow outing this) forced our hand. We never wanted this to publicly reflect negatively on Phoenix but Desrow made it necessary, and i am quite upset it had to come to this.
On July 24 2011 02:51 Chicane wrote: Thanks for being clear on the whole situation. I appreciated the fact that you said that you had no plans to send him to Anaheim rather than play it off by saying "oh there were no more player passes available so we couldn't send him, otherwise we would." It's unfortunate to see he won't be on the team, but you guys look like a strong team nevertheless.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
I don't think Phoenix was put in a bad light. They just said his intentions. I personally don't think less of Phoenix for wanting to live his life in a specific way, and wanting to travel back to Korea. I'm not sure what you felt was negative, unless I missed something.
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
What are you going on about? No contract was signed, Phoenix was negotiating as every other person who has a brain would.
Ya I agree with this... he wanted to get as much as he could from the offer, or go somewhere else. It seems like a smart decision. You wouldn't want to just sit back and take the first offer you are given.
Not sure the need to include specifics of all his demands was necessary, imo.
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
Agreed. But oh wells.. RGN can pick up sheth now =]!!!!!!!!!!
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
If it is indeed true that a player demanded things and threatened things I don't believe painting a character in a more positive light than this is possible.
If he was so worried about his military service, why did he join the team in the first place? I don't see how anyone could find it okay to be sent back and forth every few months.
The contract isn't signed anyway (?), so you have no obligation to him to provide anything.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: *As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign.
Hmm thats actually really interesting. I wonder if EG was doing that- and in general who was trying to poach, and who they were trying to poach.
From what I've seen of Phoenix's stream, he doesn't seem like a bad guy- maybe he doesn't really understand how much trans-pacific costs are. Too bad for Reign and Phoenix.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: He said he did not want to stay in the US for longer than 3 months because he was expecting his military summons and did not want to become a fugitive in his own country. He said that it would be impossible for him to stay in the US for 9 months + at a time because he needed to return home often so he could go to the military if they called him
Not for anything, but this concern should have been the first thing brought up while negotiating his stay in the US. Because of such a small lack of understanding, both of them'z look like total jerkbags!
On July 24 2011 02:51 Chicane wrote: Thanks for being clear on the whole situation. I appreciated the fact that you said that you had no plans to send him to Anaheim rather than play it off by saying "oh there were no more player passes available so we couldn't send him, otherwise we would." It's unfortunate to see he won't be on the team, but you guys look like a strong team nevertheless.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
I don't think Phoenix was put in a bad light. They just said his intentions. I personally don't think less of Phoenix for wanting to live his life in a specific way, and wanting to travel back to Korea. I'm not sure what you felt was negative, unless I missed something.
On July 24 2011 02:51 arbitrageur wrote:
On July 24 2011 02:48 TheAntZ wrote:
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
What are you going on about? No contract was signed, Phoenix was negotiating as every other person who has a brain would.
Ya I agree with this... he wanted to get as much as he could from the offer, or go somewhere else. It seems like a smart decision. You wouldn't want to just sit back and take the first offer you are given.
Not sure the need to include specifics of all his demands was necessary, imo.
Ya it may not have been necessary, but at the same time I don't think the specifics being mentioned reflected negatively on Phoenix as a person or player... but that's just my opinion.
So much drama lately :/, Seems a simple case of him being presented with a contract, he didnt agree, negotiations fell through, end of story x.x, As someone said its bad for Reign and Phoenix
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
You say that as if it's fine for players that have had success to have unreasonable demands and to screw their teams around.
On July 24 2011 02:53 frequency wrote: If he was so worried about his military service, why did he join the team in the first place? I don't see how anyone could find it okay to be sent back and forth every few months.
The contract isn't signed anyway (?), so you have no obligation to him to provide anything.
Neither of them have any obligation to one another based on most common foreign practices, this is simply a situation of a premature announcement made on a team of otherwise completely contracted players.
If they hadn't announced Phoenix as part of the team while negotiations were in progress, then we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. Quite simply, no one is really in the wrong in that regard since Phoenix has every right to ask for changes to the contract before signing, and Reign has every right to say "No, that's not feasible for us", but the only issue is, that generally happens before you announce a player as part of your team.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
Do people read the OP i dont get your comment... Phoenix is in the wrong here not Team Reign. He didn't sign the contract nor during the contract did he say anything about military? READ BEFORE YOU POST? How hard is that? To many opinions not enough smarts.
Negative light is what phoenix deserves.. not saying military needs in the first place. Demanding to go to MLG Anaheim when that wasn't talked about. Asking for more money .. NOT signing a contract and trying to hold Reign to the contract when he didn't even sign it...
This is exactly what you shouldn't be doing from the OP. The point isn't to judge who is "good or bad", the point is to explain why it didn't work out. Don't be judgemental and dumb, it can be a difficult situation bringing in a player from korea.
I think that you would have been better off by simply stating that negotiations fell through. You can't exactly say that he left if he was never actually a part of your team, despite wearing the tag.
If you are going to claim another team is interfering in Phoneix's decision, then I hope you have proof, because that could count against you tbh.
A shame it didn't work out, but guess his needs couldn't match up with yours.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
Do people read the OP i dont get your comment... Phoenix is in the wrong here not Team Reign. He didn't sign the contract nor during the contract did he say anything about military? READ BEFORE YOU POST? How hard is that? To many opinions not enough smarts.
Negative light is what phoenix deserves.. not saying military needs in the first place. Demanding to go to MLG Anaheim when that wasn't talked about. Asking for more money .. NOT signing a contract and trying to hold Reign to the contract when he didn't even sign it...
This is exactly what you shouldn't be doing from the OP. The point isn't to judge who is "good or bad", the point is to explain why it didn't work out. Don't be judgemental and dumb, it can be a difficult situation bringing in a player from korea.
Ya I have to agree with this. I just really don't see why this has to be some drama filled situation where someone is the "bad guy." It was just a negotiation which doesn't seem to have been handled in the best way, and it simply didn't work out. Not a big deal overall.
I got a really really bad feelign that this "budding" organization is the Secret EG project that they wanted Puma to captian.
oh well He never did anything and from what it looks like never was apart of the team officaly. Still can't wait to see whats in store for Reign still.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
On July 24 2011 02:57 moltenlead wrote: I think that you would have been better off by simply stating that negotiations fell through. You can't exactly say that he left if he was never actually a part of your team, despite wearing the tag.
If you are going to claim another team is interfering in Phoneix's decision, then I hope you have proof, because that could count against you tbh.
A shame it didn't work out, but guess his needs couldn't match up with yours.
That's what Mirhi said and meant. That negotiations fell through. It was desRow who posted that PhoeNix left in the first place.
On July 24 2011 03:00 sermokala wrote: I got a really really bad feelign that this "budding" organization is the Secret EG project that they wanted Puma to captian.
oh well He never did anything and from what it looks like never was apart of the team officaly. Still can't wait to see whats in store for Reign still.
I would hardly call EG a "budding organization" in regards to eSports considering they're one of the older teams in the scene. It's kind of silly to makes assumptions based on basically no information in regards to the organization making offers to contracted players.
On July 24 2011 02:51 Chicane wrote: Thanks for being clear on the whole situation. I appreciated the fact that you said that you had no plans to send him to Anaheim rather than play it off by saying "oh there were no more player passes available so we couldn't send him, otherwise we would." It's unfortunate to see he won't be on the team, but you guys look like a strong team nevertheless.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
I don't think Phoenix was put in a bad light. They just said his intentions. I personally don't think less of Phoenix for wanting to live his life in a specific way, and wanting to travel back to Korea. I'm not sure what you felt was negative, unless I missed something.
On July 24 2011 02:51 arbitrageur wrote:
On July 24 2011 02:48 TheAntZ wrote:
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
What are you going on about? No contract was signed, Phoenix was negotiating as every other person who has a brain would.
Ya I agree with this... he wanted to get as much as he could from the offer, or go somewhere else. It seems like a smart decision. You wouldn't want to just sit back and take the first offer you are given.
Not sure the need to include specifics of all his demands was necessary, imo.
I'm just going to throw another word in here and say that I don't see how this reflects negatively on Phoenix myself. He had reasonable demands (esp. re: military service), and what's been presented are just ... facts? Sure, it could have been worded a little more delicately, but after desrow's leak, I appreciate Reign stepping up to the plate and giving us the story ASAP.
I certainly think no less of Phoenix, though I do think both parties should perhaps have talked through this a little bit more before announcing Phoenix joining Reign.
Anyways, good luck to both Phoenix and Reign, and I'm not gonna lie, I really want to know who this "budding organization" is that's been trying to lure players away from FXO and RGN.
Why would promote him as part of Reign when he wasn't actually under contract with and didn't have any obligations to you? It's hard to leave something when you aren't actually part of it to begin with.
Also, as others have said, the stay length of stay in the US seems like a fairly large problem that would have been talked about before joining the team.
So team and player couldn't agree on a deal...so what
Stop trying to create drama where there isn't any - business decision for Reign and personal decision for Phoenix. Good luck to both parties in the future
I think this goes all the way back to the contract thing that befuddled the EG/TSL/Puma thing. He wasn't under a contract so pretty much everything he did was legal. Reign should've contracted Phoenix and worked their way out before they started to give Phoenix the benefits and put Phoenix into on the roster. Reign didn't contract Phoenix, Reign got burned. Phoenix got a few good kicks out of his trip with Reign and is now free to pick up the benefits from whatever other team he signs with. Reign should've contracted him in the first place, and in the end I think Reign really doesn't have anybody to blame but themselves.
This incident and the EG/TSL/Puma thing really shows that you gotta get more smart about this contract business. TSL should've contracted Puma or else teams like EG gets them. Reign should've contracted Phoenix or else Phoenix is in a position to push around Reign. Yeah the honor and respect system works for some players, but if you aren't willing to go all the way in the business aspect (especially in a business world!) and contract the players you should've contracted then you have no one to blame but yourself. Yeah players like Puma and Phoenix are assholes for doing what they did, but that doesn't change the fact that they had all the right in the eye of the law to do what they did. Again, yes Phoenix was rather unscrupulous in this incident, but the only people the management at Reign can blame is themselves.
So team and player couldn't agree on a deal...so what
Stop trying to create drama where there isn't any - business decision for Reign and personal decision for Phoenix. Good luck to both parties in the future
I agree. This is business as usual and players change teams all the time for whatever reasons.
Seems reasonable from both sides. Maybe reign were a little hasty announcing Phoenix as a player if he hadn't actually signed a contract? (Edit: ignore that, didn't read properly)
Really doesn't matter though... the main thing to take from this isn't "shame on reign" or "shame on Phoenix" but rather "shame on desRow"
we completed literally everything that was in Phoenix’s contract, but Phoenix also never signed the contract and threatened to leave the entire time he was a part of the team unless we met more demands.
These kinds of players shouldnt be regarded as "professionals". Phoenix is an awesome player but this is behavior you'd expect from someone whos actually won or done something.
You say that as if it's fine for players that have had success to have unreasonable demands and to screw their teams around.
thats not how I meant to come across, what I meant was when someone gets really good and has great results, they get an ego, and thats understandable even if not acceptable. What i meant is that Phoenix seems to have unrealistically high expectations given his achievements
On July 24 2011 03:00 sermokala wrote: I got a really really bad feelign that this "budding" organization is the Secret EG project that they wanted Puma to captian.
oh well He never did anything and from what it looks like never was apart of the team officaly. Still can't wait to see whats in store for Reign still.
there is no secret project, EG isnt really "budding" because they have been around since the start of SC2. If you look at the people they have signed since sc2. Idra, Demuslim, and Puma is still in negotiation. They seem to be happy to improve their supporting cast and are only looking for "franchise" players, which eg is looking for. I also dont see why they would have any interest in pheonix as he hasnt really been successful in anything.
I think it's great you let everyone know what happened and how. It will stop alot of unnecessary bickering about what happened and people making up all kinds of shit because theyre paranoid and what not. ty for doing this.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
I think giving all the details of the incident was a professional move. Again, Spades stated that the only reason all of this happened was because desRow posted and because of that the community wanted details. I doubt the public would have been happy with a "negotiations fell through" after what was exposed with what desRow said.
Happy that this was found out quickly. (like posted about etc). it is good to see teams offering the community their side of things (EG/puma scandal being the other way). I know that it might seem like they are posting the dirty laundry but it is more so that they can be 100percent truthful with us.
On July 24 2011 03:03 YeYo wrote: LOL @ pheonix threatining to leave team why because he thinks he a hot shot korean?
Im sure there are 50 other Koreans that would easily agree to those terms. Reign doesnt need Pheonix, Pheonix doesnt need Reign.
Oh get over your silly judgements.
Are you going to judge every player that wants to negotiate their contract? This is why negotiations shouldn't really be made public anyways, because there are always gits ready to make judgments about the negotiating party.
Reign shouldn't really have announced Phoenix if he wasn't contracted yet, while the rest of the team was. Negotiations continued to take place afterwards and ultimately Phoenix chose not to sign with the team, he was pretty much never with Reign in that regard, they just jumped the gun in announcing him. When everyone on your team is contracted except for one person, and you're negotiating with them about the terms of their contract, it's strange to announce that they're a part of your team, because you get into situations like this.
On July 24 2011 02:57 moltenlead wrote: I think that you would have been better off by simply stating that negotiations fell through. You can't exactly say that he left if he was never actually a part of your team, despite wearing the tag.
If you are going to claim another team is interfering in Phoneix's decision, then I hope you have proof, because that could count against you tbh.
A shame it didn't work out, but guess his needs couldn't match up with yours.
That's what Mirhi said and meant. That negotiations fell through. It was desRow who posted that PhoeNix left in the first place.
I think that he could have said it without trying to slander Phoneix's name much more than was fair.
On July 24 2011 03:04 Keap wrote: So team and player couldn't agree on a deal...so what
Stop trying to create drama where there isn't any - business decision for Reign and personal decision for Phoenix. Good luck to both parties in the future
So can I ask who you're directing "Stop trying to create drama where there isn't any" to?
On July 24 2011 03:05 vindKtiv wrote: I think this goes all the way back to the contract thing that befuddled the EG/TSL/Puma thing. He wasn't under a contract so pretty much everything he did was legal. Reign should've contracted Phoenix and worked their way out before they started to give Phoenix the benefits and put Phoenix into on the roster. Reign didn't contract Phoenix, Reign got burned. Phoenix got a few good kicks out of his trip with Reign and is now free to pick up the benefits from whatever other team he signs with. Reign should've contracted him in the first place, and in the end I think Reign really doesn't have anybody to blame but themselves.
This incident and the EG/TSL/Puma thing really shows that you gotta get more smart about this contract business. TSL should've contracted Puma or else teams like EG gets them. Reign should've contracted Phoenix or else Phoenix is in a position to push around Reign. Yeah the honor and respect system works for some players, but if you aren't willing to go all the way in the business aspect (especially in a business world!) and contract the players you should've contracted then you have no one to blame but yourself. Yeah players like Puma and Phoenix are assholes for doing what they did, but that doesn't change the fact that they had all the right in the eye of the law to do what they did. Again, yes Phoenix was rather unscrupulous in this incident, but the only people the management at Reign can blame is themselves.
So team and player couldn't agree on a deal...so what
Stop trying to create drama where there isn't any - business decision for Reign and personal decision for Phoenix. Good luck to both parties in the future
I agree. This is business as usual and players change teams all the time for whatever reasons.
Did you even read the OP at all? Reign and Pheonix negotiated a contract, which Pheonix apparently agreed to, but never signed. Pheonix gained nothing from his short stay in Reign since any monetary gain would have been his small allowance once he was in the US, but that never happened since he didn't sign the contract.
Saying there's a "budding organization" trying to screw around with the SC2 team scene without naming it is just going to stir up the community and cause unnecessary accusations against numerous teams, which may or may not be responsible.
If you don't wish to name the organization, then just not mentioning their shady dealings is far more preferable. I'd assume that other teams are having their players approached by this organization and have smartly chosen not to reveal the situation since they know it's just unprofessional.
Otherwise, it's a good post that explains things very well. Thanks.
On July 24 2011 02:57 moltenlead wrote: I think that you would have been better off by simply stating that negotiations fell through. You can't exactly say that he left if he was never actually a part of your team, despite wearing the tag.
If you are going to claim another team is interfering in Phoneix's decision, then I hope you have proof, because that could count against you tbh.
A shame it didn't work out, but guess his needs couldn't match up with yours.
That's what Mirhi said and meant. That negotiations fell through. It was desRow who posted that PhoeNix left in the first place.
I think that he could have said it without trying to slander Phoneix's name much more than was fair.
I think you make a very good point in saying that PhoeNix should not be slandered in the first place. And I agree with that.
I also believe that desRow's posting left a lot to be desired for the community. I think after desRow's leak the community was left wondering "why did all of this fall through"? I think otherwise (and Spades mentions this) Mirhi would not have been as transparent in his official statement.
But regardless thank you for being civil and not telling me to read the OP.
On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote: i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo
Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret!
This.
Pretty much the only interesting thing in the story, sadly. I mean, yeah, it sucks Phoenix couldn't sign a contract, but it's really not that big of an issue. A player and a team just couldn't agree to terms and the deal fell through. I don't blame for Phoenix, a Korean, trying to get the best opportunity in a country that he doesn't know, and I don't blame Reign for not having the funds or being able to accommodate every need that Phoenix wanted.
Hopefully Phoenix finds a Korean team with a foreigner partner like MVP to team up with, and I hope Reign can replace him with another good player for all the money they didn't spend on Phoenix.
It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
Edit: Sorry, my brain farted and i forgot the name of Fanatic's manager: Xeris...
On July 24 2011 03:11 Fionn wrote: Hopefully Phoenix finds a Korean team with a foreigner partner like MVP to team up with, and I hope Reign can replace him with another good player for all the money they didn't spend on Phoenix.
Guess this is the gist of it, yeah. Also congrats on your recent 3k.
Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
I think giving all the details of the incident was a professional move. Again, Spades stated that the only reason all of this happened was because desRow posted and because of that the community wanted details. I doubt the public would have been happy with a "negotiations fell through" after what was exposed with what desRow said.
Everyone knows desRow is a "great and very respectable" guy, so basing your organisational moves on what he does isn't exactly ideal.
Stupid of desRow to post anything, considering this whole situation has absolutely nothing to do with him. Can't really blame Reign or Phoenix here.
Very interested about what the 'budding organization' is that's trying to take players from other teams, that's the biggest thing that comes out of this post imo. Very interested to hear more about that.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him?
Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it.
On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote: i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo
Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret!
Hah, while I also want to know... we all know that there is plenty reason to keep it a secret. People are already angry over what has been said so far, and mentioning the team trying to snipe players will.... well you know.
On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote: Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up.
I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective.
I wonder who the budding organization that they were talking about is... I really wish Mirhi just said:
We have unfortunately not been able to come to terms with our player, Phoenix, and we wish to go our separate ways. Good luck to Phoenix on his future endeavors...
it would save the unavoidable 200 pages to come about some drama that never existed.. The team couldn't support Phoenix, and it wasn't what Phoenix wanted, so he left.. They don't hate each other...I just wish Mirhi didn't make an explanation of the situation as there is a shitstorm that is about to come.
Ah, sucks that Phoenix pulled out of signing the initial agreement. Oh well, life goes on. Makes sense that he'd want some changes, given that he was expecting military service soon, but it also makes sense that it wasn't financially feasible for Reign to accommodate those needs.
That's about all there is to it, peeps. No need to play the drama game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote: Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up.
I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective.
We had a verbal agreement, and Phoenix was very adamant about being announced immediately, so we announced him on good faith
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
I think giving all the details of the incident was a professional move. Again, Spades stated that the only reason all of this happened was because desRow posted and because of that the community wanted details. I doubt the public would have been happy with a "negotiations fell through" after what was exposed with what desRow said.
Everyone knows desRow is a "great and very respectable" guy, so basing your organisational moves on what he does isn't exactly ideal.
I understand the stigma associated with desRow and I understand that basing organizational moves on his actions is generally not good. But I think it was important for Mirhi to clear up misconceptions and be transparent. What desRow posted definitely was unprofessional and I feel that Mirhi felt a professional statement that was honest would fix that. Perhaps that did end up making PhoeNix look like the bad guy but it seems it was a necessary move based on the misconceptions that desRow could have implied in his post.
On July 24 2011 03:15 DeepBlu2 wrote: I wonder who the budding organization that they were talking about is... I really wish Mirhi just said:
We have unfortunately not been able to come to terms with our player, Phoenix, and we wish to go our separate ways. Good luck to Phoenix on his future endeavors...
it would save the unavoidable 200 pages to come about some drama that never existed.. The team couldn't support Phoenix, and it wasn't what Phoenix wanted, so he left.. They don't hate each other...I just wish Mirhi didn't make an explanation of the situation as there is a shitstorm that is about to come.
Most likely EG. They have the money to do so and have been known to talk to many other Korean players.
On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote: Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up.
I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective.
Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun...
Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!".
On July 24 2011 03:16 amazingoopah wrote: wtf is with all the drama recently.... guys not wanting to sign contracts, 'budding organizations' trying to steal players from other teams...
The contract thing really isn't that big of a deal. Signing a guy from Korea must be pretty difficult. He has to totally rearrange his life and it's especially hard when the Reign house isn't up and running. Add in the Korean military service and it sounds almost impossible. You can't blame either side in this situation.
The organization thing is the really interesting point. I hope this is expanded upon.
On July 24 2011 03:13 Chicane wrote: Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him?
Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it.
I agree with you in that I don't think they meant to portray Phoenix in a negative light. I do believe that the OP could be written a bit more delicately, but given desrow's impromptu post, they had to cobble this together extraordinarily quickly, and it seems like they wanted to be very transparent with the events after the leak. As for the negativity ... "demand" and "threaten" are very aggressive words? That's all I can find.
On July 24 2011 03:10 Enhancer_ wrote: Saying there's a "budding organization" trying to screw around with the SC2 team scene without naming it is just going to stir up the community and cause unnecessary accusations against numerous teams, which may or may not be responsible.
If you don't wish to name the organization, then just not mentioning their shady dealings is far more preferable. I'd assume that other teams are having their players approached by this organization and have smartly chosen not to reveal the situation since they know it's just unprofessional.
Otherwise, it's a good post that explains things very well. Thanks.
disagree
bring on the speculation and theories
SC2 soap operas have been very entertaining so far
On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote: Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up.
I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective.
Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun...
Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!".
Pardon my assumptions in the explanation; Spades clears it up in a post sometime below mine.
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
.....I can't tell if you're serious or trolling.
EG would in no way be described as a budding start-up team, they are one of the most established long running teams involved in SC2 at the moment.
Sen was approched by more then one team seeing if he was renewing as his contract runs out in a couple of weeks, that's perfectly normal.
Milkis frowned upon the EG/Puma deal as he disliked it from a cultural point of view, nothing to do with fears of EG being on a recruitment spree.
FXOpen disliked it because it could set a negative tone between Western and Korean teams which would make future deals, partnerships harder to form and could spark the creation of Kespa 2.0.
Not everything is a giant conspiracy, this was just a player and a team not being able to agree on final terms. It happens, you can put away the tin-foil hat and the pitchfork now.
On July 24 2011 03:16 amazingoopah wrote: wtf is with all the drama recently.... guys not wanting to sign contracts, 'budding organizations' trying to steal players from other teams...
It's not really drama. Phoenix didn't want to sign the contract because he was looking for additional terms (i.e. was still trying to negotiate a better deal), and there's nothing wrong with other organizations trying to pick up a still-unsigned player, even if they're in talks to get signed. Think of it like an auction, where organizations are bidding for a player.
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
As I read (cuz i guess you didnt) the negotiations were over, and thats why he was announced as reign, he should have had sign the contract but he didnt. He is in fault there. Phoenix acted in a very greedy and dispicable way towards Reign, thinking he can say something and then just toy with teams all around and look for the best payer, thats unhonest and thats wrong.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
You are completly wrong sir. Actually this is the professional thing, to inform the public with the truth. I dont think there are press conferences for this stuff in e-sports. You just make a post in the biggest site about the game.
Phoenix agreed to something and then backed out, trying to get more, thats wrong, period.
And in my personal opinion, phoenix its not among the best koreans players, so i dont know what he was thinking about getting flown back and forth every 3 months, hes not that good to get that kind of treatment. *cough* hes not nestea *cough*
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
Colleges can't do that. There are very very strict recruitment rules with the NCAA as far as I know.
On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote: Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up.
I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective.
Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun...
Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!".
Pardon my assumptions in the explanation; Spades clears it up in a post sometime below mine.
It sounds a bit iffy, not to question Spades, and it's still breaking from standard practice and in this case it bit them in the ass. So in the end, keep with standard practice. It's quite silly to go for, "Oh, yeah I'll sign it later, announce that I'm part of the team today".
I feel that would be very silly to attempt, and it's even sillier that it worked.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
As I read (cuz i guess you didnt) the negotiations were over, and thats why he was announced as reign, he should have had sign the contract but he didnt. He is in fault there. Phoenix acted in a very greedy and dispicable way towards Reign, thinking he can say something and then just toy with teams all around and look for the best payer, thats unhonest and thats wrong.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
You are completly wrong sir. Actually this is the professional thing, to inform the public with the truth. I dont think there are press conferences for this stuff in e-sports. You just make a post in the biggest site about the game.
Phoenix agreed to something and then backed out, trying to get more, thats wrong, period.
And in my personal opinion, phoenix its not among the best koreans players, so i dont know what he was thinking about getting flown back and forth every 3 months, hes not that good to get that kind of treatment. *cough* hes not nestea *cough*
And once again, I think that's very silly. This is also why it's quite frowned upon to talk about negotiations with a player in public. If I want to ask for a $100,000 increase before I sign a contract, and a team tells me I'm out of my mind for expecting that, then we go separate ways and no dirty laundry is aired, he has every right to request whatever he wants prior to signing.
This was an error on Reign's part since they had the rest of their team contracted but decided to take one player on their word, sure it was wrong of Phoenix to change his mind afterwards but once again we're left with one side of the story, and based on this side, if he's not signed, he's not signed. This isn't like the Puma situation where everyone on the team was unsigned and it was running on good faith, the entire team in the foreign eSports scene is generally contracted, Phoenix was just announced on good faith, which is bad practice.
On July 24 2011 03:12 Mordiford wrote: Why wouldn't you just wait until he actually signed before making the announcement? I mean, I can understand that you just trusted him to sign, but in these cases it just affirms that it's best to wait until everything is sorted about before making a player announcement that could through weeks later because the negotiations weren't completed.
If he's asking for changes to the contract prior to signing it, that means negotiations aren't complete. Particularly when the rest of your team is contracted.
I agree with you, but at the same time I feel like I understand Reign's reasoning behind just announcing PhoeNix as a member. Hype. Excitement. He was one of the first (if not the first Korean player) to bend to a foreign team. Maybe at the time negotiations were going smoothly and it seemed en route. Perhaps it wasn't professional but it definitely riled the community up.
I'm not actively disagreeing, just providing perspective.
Oh, I can absolutely understand why they ended up jumping the gun in announcing Phoenix, but at the end of the day, they still jumped the gun...
Just one of the many lessons we're learning this past week, contracts are important, put your players on a contract, don't announce a player until they've signed a contract, because until it's down on paper, they can quite easily say, "Actually, Team PotofGold is offering me 30% more, peace out bye!".
Pardon my assumptions in the explanation; Spades clears it up in a post sometime below mine.
It sounds a bit iffy, not to question Spades, and it's still breaking from standard practice and in this case it bit them in the ass. So in the end, keep with standard practice. It's quite silly to go for, "Oh, yeah I'll sign it later, announce that I'm part of the team today".
I feel that would be very silly to attempt, and it's even sillier that it worked.
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
Yeah, that's called against the rules according to NCAA. I like how you point to college recruiting, which is another process that can be manipulative and exploitative.
On July 24 2011 03:19 S.O.L.I.D. wrote: Now that I think about it, why would Phoenix verbally agree to the contract and then not sign the same contract?
Happens all the time in negotiations. People or companies initially verbally agree to a set of terms, then after sleeping on it reverse their decision. Sometimes it's because they forgot something they wanted in the terms, sometimes it's because they think up something else they wanted, or something important happened to get overlooked, etc.
In Phoenix's case, seems like after verbally agreeing, he realized he wanted to go to Anaheim and remembered he had to deal with the potential of being recruited for military service.
On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote: i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo
Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret!
Tyler demands information, FEED IT TO HIM
Tyler just wants more drama
You know what would be awesome?
Just one piece of SC2 news about some deal not working out / players and teams not agreeing where everyone didn't try to demonize one of the sides.
Negotations fell through at the last second, that's perfectly normal. Nobody is being "greedy", nobody is being "despicable", nobody is being unprofessional or whatever other terms people are rushing to throw in.
Phoenix wanted more then Reign was prepared to offer so he declined to sign, end of story.
Too bad for Reign, I hope future efforts to expand work out better!
It doesn't sound like a big deal. Two parties were negotiating over a contract. They couldn't agree on all the details and therefore the contract wasn't signed. Happens. Sad for both, Reign and Phoenix, that they didn't find together.
But I'm totally interested in this 3rd party that tries to buy players from other teams.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him?
Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it.
Some excerpts from the first couple of paragraphs should be enough to point out RGN's desire to portray Phoenix in a negative light.
--
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: It’s not my intent to portray Phoenix in a negative light but it appears necessary to address a few points. I will do my best to leave my personal feelings out of this.
Phoenix refused to sign his contract, despite the rest of the team has signing theirs.
Phoenix also threatened to leave the team unless we met a few demands.
--
Not their intent to hurt his image, but it appears necessary? (based on what doucheRow did?)
Do their best to leave personal feelings out?? (oh boy please don't tell us what you really think!)
Sounds like a player that simply wanted too much. I don't know. I can't blame RGN for outing this information in the manner that they did, because the information leaked by desRow was pretty aggressive, making it sound like RGN just decided not to pay him, when in fact it was Phoenix's own fault.
Fuck all this drama though, and all the people continuing to drag EG through the mud on issues that don't even relate to them.
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
whats wrong with recruiting players under no contract. sports team do much more with recruiting. heard colleges even bought a player a house to go to their team.
Yeah, that's called against the rules according to NCAA. I like how you point to college recruiting, which is another process that can be manipulative and exploitative.
In college basketball, they pay players to ref for large, large amounts of money because it's not directly against the rules, but you're basically being paid a lot more money than you should and you basically do nothing.. But again, in this case, there is/should be no drama.. They couldn't come to terms and that's it. You guys realize that Boss could have done the same thing to Sheth and the thread would have turned into a shitstorm instead of a "Good luck Sheth on your next team" or "Hopefully Sheth continues to perform well"... People are overreacting because of the context in the OP and I wish Mirhi just said a brief statement saying they didn't agree and had to part ways.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
As I read (cuz i guess you didnt) the negotiations were over, and thats why he was announced as reign, he should have had sign the contract but he didnt. He is in fault there. Phoenix acted in a very greedy and dispicable way towards Reign, thinking he can say something and then just toy with teams all around and look for the best payer, thats unhonest and thats wrong.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
You are completly wrong sir. Actually this is the professional thing, to inform the public with the truth. I dont think there are press conferences for this stuff in e-sports. You just make a post in the biggest site about the game.
Phoenix agreed to something and then backed out, trying to get more, thats wrong, period.
And in my personal opinion, phoenix its not among the best koreans players, so i dont know what he was thinking about getting flown back and forth every 3 months, hes not that good to get that kind of treatment. *cough* hes not nestea *cough*
Why are you looking for a good guy/bad guy? This sort of thing happens all the time in business. Both parties verbally agree to the terms, one party re-opens negotiations for one reason or another, and the second party can either continue negotiations or drop the deal. Reign ultimately dropped it. Life goes on.
Between this and the EG/PuMa thing, I'm amazed to see how many TLers are business virgins, so to speak. o_O
While this really doesn't strike me as a very big deal (negotiations break down all the time in the business world), the somewhat negative tone of the post and the inclusion of a "mysterious" player stealing organization is going to make this thread much longer and more painful than it needed to be.
On July 24 2011 02:57 FrankWalls wrote: i'm more curious who this budding organization is that is trying to snipe players from reign and fxo
Yeah, such a tease. I understand that it's not relevant to the Phoenix story. But there's no reason to keep it secret!
Tyler demands information, FEED IT TO HIM
Tyler just wants more drama
You know what would be awesome?
Just one piece of SC2 news about some deal not working out / players and teams not agreeing where everyone didn't try to demonize one of the sides.
Negotations fell through at the last second, that's perfectly normal. Nobody is being "greedy", nobody is being "despicable", nobody is being unprofessional or whatever other terms people are rushing to throw in.
Phoenix wanted more then Reign was prepared to offer so he declined to sign, end of story.
Too bad for Reign, I hope future efforts to expand work out better!
I don't believe Tyler wants more drama when he asks for the organization. I don't think that's drama necessarily. I could be wrong.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him?
Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it.
Some excerpts from the first couple of paragraphs should be enough to point out RGN's desire to portray Phoenix in a negative light.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: It’s not my intent to portray Phoenix in a negative light but it appears necessary to address a few points. I will do my best to leave my personal feelings out of this.
Phoenix refused to sign his contract, despite the rest of the team has signing theirs.
Phoenix also threatened to leave the team unless we met a few demands.
--
Not their intent to hurt his image, but it appears necessary? (based on what doucheRow did?)
Do their best to leave personal feelings out?? (oh boy please don't tell us what you really think!)
He refused to sign, even though all others did!!!
He threatened the team!!!
Desrow's post pretty much created a situation where a full explanation was necessary. If they released it on their own terms, they probably could've gotten away with "Contract negotiations fell through. We \wish Phoenix the best etc" But desrow's screenshots showed some sort of 'broken promises' from phoenix's perspective, so Reign had to explain their side of the story in full.
I am still a fan of team Reign, never was a fan of phoenix but I do not think less of him for this, as for Desrow shame on him for releasing this early...
I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
Edit: Sorry, my brain farted and i forgot the name of Fanatic's manager: Xeris...
On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote: I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
It's stupid practice, if isn't abnormal then it says a lot about the state of pro SC2.
Seems like either phoenix read the contract properly, agreed to the terms but later on decided he didn't want to join the team and came out with some unreasonable demands to have a way out, or he didn't read it properly and was overestimating Reign's capability and inclination to accomodate him beyond the initial terms. Either way, what's done is done and hopefully they can both move forward.
On July 24 2011 03:12 legaton wrote: It most probably EG. FXOBoss loudly agreed with TLO on his blog on EG, and it seems Sen was also approached during the NASL finals. No wonder why Milkis also frowned -publicly- upon the PUMA situation. This shows a pattern of aggressive -if not appalling- recruitment methods.
Edit: Sorry, my brain farted and i forgot the name of Fanatic's manager: Xeris...
On July 24 2011 03:29 eNtitY~ wrote: Phoenix sounds like a douche.
No, he sounds like someone who has different priorities and commitments than what Reign expected which is why he didn't sign the contract.
Morals of the Story:
- Make your players sign contracts(Learnt during the Puma situation).
- Make sure your players have signed the contract before you say, "We have X player", because you don't really have that player.
- Eat your vegetables.
This, good luck to both parties. I don't understand the obsession with teams posting every sticky detail on situations like this. All that needed to be said was "Phoenix agreed to our terms, but reconsidered before signing the contract and both parties decided to part ways." Most of this post (in spite of the desRow leak) was complete fluff, including the bit about the "budding organization" which was completely irrelevant to the situation and was purely drama bait.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
Mods please ban.
Why would they ban? Most people would look at this post and infer the exact same thing. I'm one of them.
Whatever happened during negotiations doesn't matter. It's unprofessional to come to TL and post all he dirt.
Look at how FXO handled their situation with Sheth. That's how you do it. You don't think FXO could've hurt Sheth's image if they wanted to considering what he did to the team?
Can you actually point out what was said about Phoenix to ruin his image? Yes they could have probably just left out some of the details of the negotiations, but they just said what Phoenix wanted from the team to explain why they couldn't accommodate him on the team. When did they actually talk negatively about him?
Seriously, please explain, or just quote the OP. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems like people who are trying to turn this into some drama filled situation aren't actually saying what is so "bad" about it and I am not seeing it.
Some excerpts from the first couple of paragraphs should be enough to point out RGN's desire to portray Phoenix in a negative light.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: It’s not my intent to portray Phoenix in a negative light but it appears necessary to address a few points. I will do my best to leave my personal feelings out of this.
Phoenix refused to sign his contract, despite the rest of the team has signing theirs.
Phoenix also threatened to leave the team unless we met a few demands.
--
Not their intent to hurt his image, but it appears necessary? (based on what doucheRow did?)
Do their best to leave personal feelings out?? (oh boy please don't tell us what you really think!)
He refused to sign, even though all others did!!!
He threatened the team!!!
? I'm still not seeing it. First of all... he did not threaten the team as you stated... he threatened to leave the team because his negotiations weren't met just like any other player would do when a team is trying to sign them. They threaten to not sign with the team unless they get what they want.
As for refusing to sign the contract, that pretty much falls under the same category if he didn't want to follow through with what he was offered. I don't see how that makes him look bad.
Either way, those are simply the facts. Looking past the fact that I don't see how that makes Phoenix look bad (that he was trying to negotiate in his best interests... what a surprise) you have to keep in mind that they didn't try to slander him. Hell, there wasn't even a personal opinion in the part you quoted. At the end of the day though, if you really feel after you were given facts without personal bias, and you feel it makes a player look worse, then you think that player looks worse because of the decisions they made, not because of what the team did.
If a player were to constantly harass other teammates and possibly even physically assault them in frustration, and then the team announced they were releasing the player for that reason, would you blame the team for making that public and putting the player in a bad light, or would you blame the player for acting so poorly?
On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote: I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
Contracts are slowly turning into a must for all - unless we want to be like FPS teams
What the OP described sounds like standard contract negotiations to me (albeit with a ridiculous anti-Phoenix slant), in which case I can't really find either party at fault.
What organzation is trying to snipe players from reign and FXO? That sounds a little bit shady, i guess we will have to wait and see. If pheonix ends up on a team in the next few weeks we can probably assume its them.
First of all, until there's a signature on the dotted line, there is no agreement. Negotiations broke down and a deal was not made. It's as simple as that. This thread comes across as very petty and vindictive.
On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote: I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
If only for tax purposes, how the hell does that work? Unless you're referring to teams that don't pay any salaries...
I don't really get what's bad about "not signing despite rest of the team did". Pressuring people into signing generally isn't a good thing to do, I'd say.
On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote: I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
It's stupid practice, if isn't abnormal then it says a lot about the state of pro SC2.
It doesn't say anything new. The amount of support given to players in most "esports organizations" is so miniscule that there's not much incentive to sign a contract which could open the player to legal liability. A lot of the contracts have ridiculous restrictions that require you to pay the organization for things deemed detrimental to its reputation. I was involved with the check-six organization 6 years ago and just went along without ever signing a contract for about a year with them because all I was getting out of the deal was a plane ticket and tournament entry and my legal liability could possibly have been in the thousands of dollars if I had broken rules in the contract about representing the organization, drinking alcohol, etc.
It's dumb to commit to an organization or for an organization to commit resources without a contract. However, most of these teams have boilerplate contracts and the cost for both parties to hire lawyers to make sure they're not getting screwed is prohibitive unless you're salaried or being flown to every tournament or having living expenses taken care of. I don't think many sc2 players are in that situation.
Well the OP made it very clear so no need to worry anyone. I never knew that desrow leaked it at all. But 2 decisions were made and i guess it was the best way for both parts i guess?
On July 24 2011 03:35 Mirhi wrote: I just wanted to say, there are players on a number of different teams (well known, top 10 foreigner teams) that don't even have contracts. This is not an abnormal practice.
It's stupid practice, if isn't abnormal then it says a lot about the state of pro SC2.
It doesn't say anything new. The amount of support given to players in most "esports organizations" is so miniscule that there's not much incentive to sign a contract which could open the player to legal liability. A lot of the contracts have ridiculous restrictions that require you to pay the organization for things deemed detrimental to its reputation. I was involved with the check-six organization 6 years ago and just went along without ever signing a contract for about a year with them because all I was getting out of the deal was a plane ticket and tournament entry and my legal liability could possibly have been in the thousands of dollars if I had broken rules in the contract about representing the organization, drinking alcohol, etc.
It's dumb to commit to an organization or for an organization to commit resources without a contract. However, most of these teams have boilerplate contracts and the cost for both parties to hire lawyers to make sure they're not getting screwed is prohibitive unless you're salaried or being flown to every tournament or having living expenses taken care of. I don't think many sc2 players are in that situation.
Fine, but then no one should whine if other organization shows up with a better offer. This "poaching" bullshit that has been running on TL recently gives me nausea.
phoenix isnt even a top tier player anyways. u dont lose much reign. but u guys really need to get some more exposure cuz i forgot about team reign. hopefully u guys do well in anaheim.
to those of you who say that they shouldnt have given out details I have to ask: are you new to tl or the sc2 community as a whole? I see you have adequate amount of posts to know(because if you didnt know then why are you even speaking your mind on this and who is throwing dirt and what not?) but you seem to not know what kind of shit happens when you just say "negotiations didnt pan out".
What happens is you get 200 pages of people making up all kinds of shit about what happened and who is to blame and sooner or later the most paranoid and ridiculous(not to mention just plain stupid) reasons are thought up and in the end the organization is blamed more or less and the player looks like an angel(especially when they are korean). That's the current state of the sc2 community when it comes to these kind of things. Hello and welcome.
Edit: If you think Phoenix was portrayed in a negative way it's because some of the things he did was kind of not so good, not OP giving them a negative slant. Youre blinded from all the drama to even pick apart what is fact and what is biased opinion.
Don't really see the drama here. Phoenix and Reign couldn't work out an agreement that would work for both sides so now he won't be on the team. Seems like their was some misunderstandings on both sides but it happens. Compared to the earlier drama of the week this doesn't seem like a big issue.
EDIT: Kind of interested to find out who this "new budding organization" is though.
I think the OP was very well put together and did it's best not to portray Phoenix in a negative manner. I'm sure he will find another team in the near future and Reign will find a good replacement.
Unfortunately for all those who disagree with this, sometimes facts need to be released and its difficult to make shit smell like flowers. Some of the things that happened in this situation were not ideal for anyone and they can be spun to both parties disadvantage. Take it for what it is, simply an informative update on the state of what's going on.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
This is really sad to see, was hoping he would be a key part of Team Reign. Not to seem funny or anything I hope Team Reign finds a new Korean that will join them. Simple reason being the Korean player can show them Korean training routines and things along that line.
What Phoenix want was not to be out of country more than 3 months because of South Korean Laws and policy to prevent its citizens to dodge military require enlistment. But Reign couldn't deliver because of monetary restraint. So, it's best interest for both parties to part ways, but because of third party (Desrow) break news about the behind the stage event Regin have to come out defend their stand. I feel many people are elevating this into more drama.
Not a big loss for Reign IMO. Phoenix is neither an elite player nor particularly well known in the community. Honestly this thread is probably the most attention he's ever gotten before.
On July 24 2011 04:07 FXOpen wrote: this thread kind of makes me LOL.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
They needed to release this statement because desrow posted a chat log with phoenix saying he was leaving. So many questions were asked that they needed to do this.
I don't get what the purpose of this thread anyways. Phoenix ended up not coming to the USA and joining Reign.. big deal? I don't see why this is a "situation,"
It's not like a bunch of people were posting in the forums "omg did you hear about Reign and Phoenix!!!???111"
Not sure what this thread is for other than to explain a situation that pretty much nobody really cared about
On July 24 2011 04:07 FXOpen wrote: this thread kind of makes me LOL.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
Are you going to spill the beans on the "Budding organization" ? :D Inquiring minds want to know and as is common knowledge, drama>professionalism, just ask uncle Rupert.
It's not a defamation thread. Phoenix just had unrealistic expectations for the caliber of player he is (a decent B-teamer korean, but nothing more, nothing less) and for a kind of team Reign is (i.e. they dont have chests filled with 100$ bills like FXO does)
I don't think it's realistic for you to make "demands" of teams and threaten to leave unless you are an absolutely top tier pro like MC or Nestea. Also, it's unrealistic to expect a new team to fly you between countries every 3 months. Hell, some teams are struggling to fly their players within the country to MLGs.
It didn't work out, so w.e. I hope Reign finds a better korean (shouldn't be hard) and I hope Phoenix finds a team.
I dont deal with drama. I am a a businesss man. If someone wants to take me on in business let the fun start. I have talked to all parties involved, and no end was achieved. But the end result is, this has nothing to do with FXO and the FXO name shouldnt be in the opening post.
To the people asking this thread was made to clear up the situation which made reign look terrible posted by desrow in an attempt for more drama i guess.
as teams become more and more transparent with their player deals, and shed light on how unprofessional and childish some pro-players act; more players will realize how stupid they look and hopefully begin to act with integrity. (not directed at phoenix)
VT/Reign is just simply trying to explain itself after desRow copied a post from Reddit, showing how Phoenix claims that he broke apart from Reign due to broken promises.
No big deal.
Though still interested about the budding organization.
On July 24 2011 03:29 eNtitY~ wrote: Phoenix sounds like a douche.
No, he sounds like someone who has different priorities and commitments than what Reign expected which is why he didn't sign the contract.
Morals of the Story:
- Make your players sign contracts(Learnt during the Puma situation).
- Make sure your players have signed the contract before you say, "We have X player", because you don't really have that player.
- Eat your vegetables.
- Make sure all your players block all ties with desrow.
I'm really curious as to who has the balls and money to try to snipe players from Reign and FXO, especially as a budding organization. It's like trying to snipe board members of Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan with a small startup company.
Sounds like he came off as just a tad demanding Whether this is true or not, I don't know, but I do respect the fact that you know how to draw the line somewhere, no matter how talented a player may be Best of luck to both
On July 24 2011 04:12 Xeris wrote: I don't get what the purpose of this thread anyways. Phoenix ended up not coming to the USA and joining Reign.. big deal? I don't see why this is a "situation,"
It's not like a bunch of people were posting in the forums "omg did you hear about Reign and Phoenix!!!???111"
Not sure what this thread is for other than to explain a situation that pretty much nobody really cared about
An earlier thread made it look like Reign could have been refusing Phoenix something that was in their contract. Admitting the truth helps keep Reign's name out of the mud.
On July 24 2011 04:07 FXOpen wrote: this thread kind of makes me LOL.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
This was simply in response to Desrow leaking a message Phoenix said that made it look like Reign wasn't following through on paying the players it signed. It turns out people were believing that, and it would have likely become a big deal had they not made a public announcement.
Also how was this defamation? Oh no! Phoenix wanted to be able to travel from Korea to the US quite frequently when Reign couldn't afford it! What a terrible person! Oh wait, it's not a big deal and they just couldn't come to an agreement. I really don't think less of Phoenix for trying to get more out of the deal so he could get what he wants, and I don't see why others do.
On July 24 2011 04:12 Xeris wrote: I don't get what the purpose of this thread anyways. Phoenix ended up not coming to the USA and joining Reign.. big deal? I don't see why this is a "situation,"
It's not like a bunch of people were posting in the forums "omg did you hear about Reign and Phoenix!!!???111"
Not sure what this thread is for other than to explain a situation that pretty much nobody really cared about
That's because they were fast to respond. People had started to believe that Reign signed players and didn't follow through with their contract, so it is good they stopped it before it spread. I don't understand your criticism.
Edit: Also, the other thread that spread misinformation was actually closed due to this response. Having rumor threads being closed and the facts come forward in a timely fashion is actually what we SHOULD want on TL. Otherwise you end up with the EG/Puma situation where it goes on forever without any answered questions.
On July 24 2011 04:07 FXOpen wrote: this thread kind of makes me LOL.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
This was simply in response to Desrow leaking a message Phoenix said that made it look like Reign wasn't following through on paying the players it signed. It turns out people were believing that, and it would have likely become a big deal had they not made a public announcement.
Also how was this defamation? Oh no! Phoenix wanted to be able to travel from Korea to the US quite frequently when Reign couldn't afford it! What a terrible person! Oh wait, it's not a big deal and they just couldn't come to an agreement. I really don't think less of Phoenix for trying to get more out of the deal so he could get what he wants, and I don't see why others do.
On July 24 2011 04:12 Xeris wrote: I don't get what the purpose of this thread anyways. Phoenix ended up not coming to the USA and joining Reign.. big deal? I don't see why this is a "situation,"
It's not like a bunch of people were posting in the forums "omg did you hear about Reign and Phoenix!!!???111"
Not sure what this thread is for other than to explain a situation that pretty much nobody really cared about
That's because they were fast to respond. People had started to believe that Reign signed players and didn't follow through with their contract, so it is good they stopped it before it spread. I don't understand your criticism.
Edit: Also, the other thread that spread misinformation was actually closed due to this response. Having rumor threads being closed and the facts come forward in a timely fashion is actually what we SHOULD want on TL. Otherwise you end up with the EG/Puma situation where it goes on forever without any answered questions.
agree. We can just look at the EG-puma situation to see what kind of harm a slow reponse can do
So, why was Phoenix part of team Reign in the first place if he didn't sign a contract?
It seems to me you just used him to promote your team and then forced on him only what was in the contract although he asked for more. You should never have taken him on the team in the first place if what was said in the contract was all you cared for.
I would like to see an "official" statement by Phoenix himself.
Considering RGN's Shady past, and how poor their player relations are (remember when they decied to eff over VT?), I am hesitant to believe this as the 'official' way things went down.
On July 24 2011 04:12 Xeris wrote: I don't get what the purpose of this thread anyways. Phoenix ended up not coming to the USA and joining Reign.. big deal? I don't see why this is a "situation,"
It's not like a bunch of people were posting in the forums "omg did you hear about Reign and Phoenix!!!???111"
Not sure what this thread is for other than to explain a situation that pretty much nobody really cared about
Because another thread was posted (Desrow's post) that made RGN look bad/at fault. They were simply clearing up their name. What's hard to understand about that?
With regards to "nobody really caring" about this news, I care. I like RGN, and I like staying abreast of community happenings.
On July 24 2011 04:07 FXOpen wrote: this thread kind of makes me LOL.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
Are you going to spill the beans on the "Budding organization" ? :D Inquiring minds want to know and as is common knowledge, drama>professionalism, just ask uncle Rupert.
I know "onE" name came to my mind Given the circumstances! Would be funny if it actually came true.
On July 24 2011 04:27 OneStepAbove wrote: Considering RGN's Shady past, and how poor their player relations are (remember when they decied to eff over VT?), I am hesitant to believe this as the 'official' way things went down.
Shady Past, They are a new team? Eff over VT? THey are VT. It is the same Management with the same star players as VT with some new ones. This is the official response by the manager.
On July 24 2011 04:29 FXOpen wrote: I point is neutral in this thread. I point out the FXO statement.
If teams want to compete for my players, I say bring it on.
On the other hand.. Whats happnened is a mix of doubel promises and fine. It doesnt deserve a thread it deserves a business meeting.
This thread in full is a joke. Its just fuelling the drama of the last days.
Ya I agree that teams should be able to compete for players, but I don't understand why responding publicly to the suspicion that they aren't fulfilling contracts doesn't deserve its own thread. If they did not respond publicly then the image of their team would be much worse.
If you are suggesting that they should have replied in the other thread, the OP in that thread had information that portrayed Reign negatively (and falsely) so why would they want to continue discussion there, when their response would be buried, and people would continue to see this seemingly negative side to Reign.
Just on it's own, announcing that Phoenix will not be part of their lineup anymore seems thread worthy enough to me. I'd say that's about equivalent to a thread announcing a new Korean player joining a team.
I do agree they could have gotten away with less details while still getting the point across, but I don't see why being a bit more transparent while not slandering anyone is such a bad thing, as I personally think it is refreshing to see them step forward and just discuss the topic publicly without making it about personal attacks. That is why I am so adamant to defend it, because I feel their response was a good one.
On July 24 2011 04:13 FXOpen wrote: I dont deal with drama. I am a a businesss man. If someone wants to take me on in business let the fun start. I have talked to all parties involved, and no end was achieved. But the end result is, this has nothing to do with FXO and the FXO name shouldnt be in the opening post.
Story ends
If "drama" starts up that causes people to question the integrity of the business side of your team the thread seems necessary. You probably would have done something similar to this in a more professional manner if it was leaked that FXO wasn't paying players. I agree that it was probably a mistake to do anything with phoenix prior to having a signed contract, but I think this post was necessary. Could Reign have done a better job with the post? Yes, but I like the transparency. I don't see anything defaming about it. To me it reads "We offered X, he wanted Y, we couldn't do Y."
I agree with Boss here there's no reason to air all the laundry so to speak. If people wanted to know why Phoenix was leaving a statement really doesn't need anything more than "We negotiated a contract and he refused to sign it then started demanding more. Due to this we have decided to part ways as a mutual business relationship was not in the best interest for us both." Half a page on everything Phoenix did to "wrong" you seems a little bit much.
On July 24 2011 04:13 FXOpen wrote: I dont deal with drama. I am a a businesss man. If someone wants to take me on in business let the fun start. I have talked to all parties involved, and no end was achieved. But the end result is, this has nothing to do with FXO and the FXO name shouldnt be in the opening post.
Story ends
If "drama" starts up that causes people to question the integrity of the business side of your team the thread seems necessary. You probably would have done something similar to this in a more professional manner if it was leaked that FXO wasn't paying players. I agree that it was probably a mistake to do anything with phoenix prior to having a signed contract, but I think this post was necessary. Could Reign have done a better job with the post? Yes, but I like the transparency. I don't see anything defaming about it. To me it reads "We offered X, he wanted Y, we couldn't do Y."
If someone isn't paying players, it should have blood wiped all over the front page.
Its not necessary, until a conclusion is made. No conclusion is made. They are just relying on the community to back them up.
No contract was made, therefore, no legal bounds are there. Its an irrelevant thread until "pheonix leaves reign" comes up.
On July 24 2011 04:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Wait, so we're now criticizing someone for being open and communicative with the community?
^
Seriously.....
Everyone is whining and crying about companies not making open, clear, and honest statements and yet here were are with one of those and now everyone is like "THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! I DEAMAND TO BE LIED AND MISLEAD TO!!!!!!"
I don't think anyone is in the wrong here. They both just had different visions of how the agreement could work out for them, and those were incompatible with each other.
On July 24 2011 04:13 FXOpen wrote: I dont deal with drama. I am a a businesss man. If someone wants to take me on in business let the fun start. I have talked to all parties involved, and no end was achieved. But the end result is, this has nothing to do with FXO and the FXO name shouldnt be in the opening post.
Story ends
If "drama" starts up that causes people to question the integrity of the business side of your team the thread seems necessary. You probably would have done something similar to this in a more professional manner if it was leaked that FXO wasn't paying players. I agree that it was probably a mistake to do anything with phoenix prior to having a signed contract, but I think this post was necessary. Could Reign have done a better job with the post? Yes, but I like the transparency. I don't see anything defaming about it. To me it reads "We offered X, he wanted Y, we couldn't do Y."
If someone isn't paying players, it should have blood wiped all over the front page.
Its not necessary, until a conclusion is made. No conclusion is made. They are just relying on the community to back them up.
No contract was made, therefore, no legal bounds are there. Its an irrelevant thread until "pheonix leaves reign" comes up.
Everyone assumed phoenix was part of RGN because nobody knew about him not signing the contract. I also believe this thread was needed to clear up the air surrounding the incident.
I dont get why everyone is being fussy here ........RGN simply wanted to clear the air. Im waiting for phoenix's reply but at least this is somewhere to start.
On July 24 2011 04:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Wait, so we're now criticizing someone for being open and communicative with the community?
Well, we don't really have any more information than we did before, just their unsubstantiated claims about how contract negotiations progressed--or didn't, as the case may be. Furthermore, making vague allusions to some nebulous "budding organization" meddling with teams is opposite of being open and transparent.
Say what you want about the OP, but "being open and communicative with the community" is a serious mischaracterization of it.
On July 24 2011 04:13 FXOpen wrote: I dont deal with drama. I am a a businesss man. If someone wants to take me on in business let the fun start. I have talked to all parties involved, and no end was achieved. But the end result is, this has nothing to do with FXO and the FXO name shouldnt be in the opening post.
Story ends
If "drama" starts up that causes people to question the integrity of the business side of your team the thread seems necessary. You probably would have done something similar to this in a more professional manner if it was leaked that FXO wasn't paying players. I agree that it was probably a mistake to do anything with phoenix prior to having a signed contract, but I think this post was necessary. Could Reign have done a better job with the post? Yes, but I like the transparency. I don't see anything defaming about it. To me it reads "We offered X, he wanted Y, we couldn't do Y."
If someone isn't paying players, it should have blood wiped all over the front page.
Its not necessary, until a conclusion is made. No conclusion is made. They are just relying on the community to back them up.
No contract was made, therefore, no legal bounds are there. Its an irrelevant thread until "pheonix leaves reign" comes up.
I'm not in the scoop. I personally didn't know if Phoenix was contracted or not. After seeing desRow's conversation with Phoenix where Phoenix says of Reign: "broken promise" and "not money send" it sounds like he was contracted or at least in some sort of deal with Reign. I have to give Phoenix's English some wiggle room. He didn't specifically mention a contract, but it isn't out of the question that he meant contract.
This post was necessary because I didn't know the facts. All I knew about Reign is that it announced a player roster a while ago and not much else. I didn't know that a conclusion or contract wasn't made. Going back to your first line I think it was necessary to clear the blood off the front page. There were probably many others who also did not know the facts.
On July 24 2011 04:07 FXOpen wrote: this thread kind of makes me LOL.
I have my players under contract. albeit whatever type of contract it is. If someone wnats to talk to my players my name is here there n everywhere feel free.
If someone feels their legal duty to undercut me, thats for a court to decide.
Although pheonix doing what his is doing is kind of fitting to his persona, I dont believe any law was broken and this thread is unnecessary.. I.e its a defamation thread.
If you got a problem with a player, sign them first. Then its easier to deal with the end result.
I love you spades (i really do!!!) but this thread sux.
Someone was posting trying to spread flames and shit out and about the starcraft 2 community. OP was trying to douse them. Whats the problem?
It sounds like everything remained completely professional just another contract issue between people. What happened, happened. We were all in the dark until this. Thanks for clearing it up.
If the demands from Phoenix were coming from someone like Nestea or MC then yes they are reasonable, however, from a player with no tournament wins (to my knowledge) it really isn't all that unreasonable for Reign to DENY all of his demands. Good for the management of team Reign, and best of luck to you guys in the future.
If anything, this is a lesson in how much professional Starcraft is growing.
Teams are going to have to start realizing that this isn't just a bunch of kids playing a game anymore. Its a legitimate business. Your players are your assets. Contract them.
The whole deal kinda sucks for Reign, but I don't feel like Phoenix really did anything wrong.
Hopefully it works out for the best for everyone involved.
On July 24 2011 05:16 MrBitter wrote: If anything, this is a lesson in how much professional Starcraft is growing.
Teams are going to have to start realizing that this isn't just a bunch of kids playing a game anymore. Its a legitimate business. Your players are your assets. Contract them.
The whole deal kinda sucks for Reign, but I don't feel like Phoenix really did anything wrong.
Hopefully it works out for the best for everyone involved.
(also, Desrow is such a fucking dick)
This post really sums up where the SC2 eSports scene tends to be heading. Teams will need to contract their assets (players) and deal with PR far more diplomatically.... and players will have to start treating their positions just as seriously. Outing info without a complete story will likely start to hurt players in the future when the backlash starts going in the right direction.
On July 24 2011 02:50 Terranist wrote: so phoenix burns you guys and you do the unprofessional thing by posting the dirt on TL
We never intended to post this, but the events that have occured(desrow outing this) forced our hand. We never wanted this to publicly reflect negatively on Phoenix but Desrow made it necessary, and i am quite upset it had to come to this.
Desrow should be scolded for leaking it. Way to go desrow. Way to go. Hope you're happy DESROW. Desrow just wanted to be in the highlight cause he isn't good and needs to get his name known somehow.
Anyway, I 100% support Reign's decision. Phoenix agreed to the contract but wouldn't sign it. He has no right to negotiate.
On July 24 2011 05:16 MrBitter wrote: If anything, this is a lesson in how much professional Starcraft is growing.
Teams are going to have to start realizing that this isn't just a bunch of kids playing a game anymore. Its a legitimate business. Your players are your assets. Contract them.
The whole deal kinda sucks for Reign, but I don't feel like Phoenix really did anything wrong.
Hopefully it works out for the best for everyone involved.
(also, Desrow is such a fucking dick)
MrBitter stole my words! : ( Oh well, but well put anyways=)
I see nothing wrong with being open about team-player relationships. However if you post all your internal info in public I hope you are also open about questions about it. What is Reign thinking recruiting a Korean flying him to the US giving him a small allowance, all without the promise of some salary or flying him to MLG's? Is this in any way a feasible agreement where both parties come out for the better?
I think what we're seeing here is: All of these teams are "run" by pro-gamers. Pro-gamers who are, at most, in their early 30s. Pro-gamers who tend to be a bit under-educated, and a bit hyper-competitive, and it's not surprising at all to me that they're doing a crappy job at public relations. You can tell by the difference between what MLG puts out and what these guys put out - it's just amateur hour over here.
The approach professionals would do here is: Phoenix and Reign were unable to agree on a contract, so we are going our separate ways. We wish Phoenix the best of luck!
Unfortunately, Reign's manager is a bit butthurt over this, and so he wanted to whine about it.
Hopefully, in 5 or 6 years we'll have people managing teams who have been trained as, and act like, professionals.
On July 24 2011 05:27 Crosswind wrote: I think what we're seeing here is: All of these teams are "run" by pro-gamers. Pro-gamers who are, at most, in their early 30s. Pro-gamers who tend to be a bit under-educated, and a bit hyper-competitive, and it's not surprising at all to me that they're doing a crappy job at public relations. You can tell by the difference between what MLG puts out and what these guys put out - it's just amateur hour over here.
The approach professionals would do here is: Phoenix and Reign were unable to agree on a contract, so we are going our separate ways. We wish Phoenix the best of luck!
Unfortunately, Reign's manager is a bit butthurt over this, and so he wanted to whine about it.
Hopefully, in 5 or 6 years we'll have people managing teams who have been trained as, and act like, professionals.
-Cross
Pretty much this. Well put. I also think a lot of the progamer teams lack business experience. So it's only natural that it'll take some time for them to find their stride. With all of the cool deals going on lately though, they are definitely maturing in their outlooks, if not their PR ability yet.
On July 24 2011 04:52 Torte de Lini wrote: Wait, so we're now criticizing someone for being open and communicative with the community?
^
Seriously.....
Everyone is whining and crying about companies not making open, clear, and honest statements and yet here were are with one of those and now everyone is like "THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! I DEAMAND TO BE LIED AND MISLEAD TO!!!!!!"
Unreal...
But it's not the same people.
It's obvious that people have different views when it comes to how teams should approach the public, whether it should be honest, straight up or with a business face on.
Those views come into conflict both in the EG case and this, people are still on the opposing sides.
The community will never be unanimous about controversial issues like this. There's different (colliding) principles and different visions of how SC2 should ideally look like.
On July 24 2011 05:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I see nothing wrong with being open about team-player relationships. However if you post all your internal info in public I hope you are also open about questions about it. What is Reign thinking recruiting a Korean flying him to the US giving him a small allowance, all without the promise of some salary or flying him to MLG's? Is this in any way a feasible agreement where both parties come out for the better?
I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
Maybe I'm the one not getting it, but it seems to me that the whole reason for the OP was to clear up the part where Phoenix said "not money send." If a statement wasn't released, then everyone would be going bat shit over RGN not sending money. So they just made a very open statement about the situation to avoid speculation and questions about the inner workings of their team. Now people are making a big deal about how RGN didn't really need to post this because it was minor, but I don't think they knew about desrow posting his chat log.
On July 24 2011 05:27 Crosswind wrote: Unfortunately, Reign's manager is a bit butthurt over this, and so he wanted to whine about it.
This is where I believe most people are wrong. The statment was a response to desrow released the chatlog where Phoenix said "not money send." This is obviously a shady and vague statement, so RGN just wanted to clear this up.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
It was but ferrying him back and forth overseas for 8 trips a year isn't fiscally reasonable. For Reign anyway. The OP even says he doesn't claim to know the entire in depth story as to why he would have to take a trip to Korea every 3 months and back or otherwise he would be a fugitive.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
based on the fact he knew his conscription was coming up you have to wonder why between the 2 of them the subject of the US even came up. although the OP didnt say anything about flight costs its implied that the relationship would of been unworkable in any situation :o
On July 24 2011 05:41 Torte de Lini wrote: How come they never announced Fayth retiring from SC2?
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
based on the fact he knew his conscription was coming up you have to wonder why between the 2 of them the subject of the US even came up. although the OP didnt say anything about flight costs its implied that the relationship would of been unworkable in any situation :o
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
ahh that makes more sense. Didn't see how you could even have a contract that didn't involve travel/mlg involved in America
It would've been physically impossible for him to go to that event without the player pass anyways... so it's not really the team's fault for being unable to do so even if they so wished to?
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
I've seen that before in Warcraft 3. Not the first time we see someone from Werra leaving a foreign team because of "broken promises". Sometimes those korean players just seem to be too greedy.
On July 24 2011 05:47 nalgene wrote: It would've been physically impossible for him to go to that event without the player pass anyways... so it's not really the team's fault for being unable to do so even if they so wished to?
Eh, theres always a few open spots, I had a player get in one, and I believe Axslav also got into one for the last MLG. So its not impossible, or a waste of time to try and be a late sign up.
Gramatically speaking OP is still very passive aggressive. Specifically, using the words like "demanded" "threatening" to describe Phoenix's actions.
Instead, OP could have made it much more neutral by using "requested" "asked" "negotiated".
You say you're clearing things up by posting the "truth" but this is still very pro-Reign. And since Phoenix doesn't speak English most likely all we'll ever get it Reign's "neutral (not)" post.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
Well I believe it was not guaranteed then, but they would def try to send him
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
Probably, It also mentioned that they didn't have the paperwork ready for Phoenix in time for Anaheim so that might clear the air there.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
Well I believe it was not guaranteed then, but they would def try to send him
ya, transportation to US does not equal trip to MLG. i think its perfectly reasonable for the management to say hey we've hit a snag (considering the HUGE amount of problems they still had to get through) and we can not send you to this upcoming MLG.
edit: and it sounds like reign didn't really do their homework on bringing a korean aboard. or else they would have known about the military service, and what it entails.
On July 24 2011 05:53 StyLeD wrote: Gramatically speaking OP is still very passive aggressive. Specifically, using the words like "demanded" "threatening" to describe Phoenix's actions.
Instead, OP could have made it much more neutral by using "requested" "asked" "negotiated".
You say you're clearing things up by posting the "truth" but this is still very pro-Reign. And since Phoenix doesn't speak English most likely all we'll ever get it Reign's "neutral (not)" post.
He knows people who know Korean and English and could easily get a post across if he pleased.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
All Reign players have their travel to events covered.
Rent in a house also being fully paid for, plus an allowance is in essence a salary. This is the slightly different approach. The normal player salaries teams give is inadequate to fully support themselves anyway. With this approach it is actually more feasible for players to live from StarCraft 2.
Edit for clarification: We were not able to make the necessary arrangements to get him to Anaheim, but were going to get him to other MLGs once in the US.
personally i think all team related news should be from team managers or a TL mod (with approval from the team itself) only and if anyone else posts it, the user should be banned. pretty dumb that a team has to basically jump on a forum to explain themselves after the community has had time to imagine what's gone on. u get all these team hate comments without the full story.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
The OP isn't lacking info, you just misread the OP. I read the OP once and this is what I got from it.
The negotiations did not include phoenix going to Anaheim because he wasn't suppose to be in the states at that time to begin with! Team house isn't ready yet, so he wouldn't have a place to stay. So original contract does include travel expenses to events, just not Anaheim. At the time of negotiations it was never intended for phoenix to go to Anaheim. Everyone agreed and they announced that Phoenix have joined Reign. Some time later Phoenix made some extra requests of him attending Anaheim and that he would need Reign to pay for the expenses. Reign said that is not possible. And now they split.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
The OP isn't lacking info, you just misread the OP. I read the OP once and this is what I got from it.
The negotiations did not include phoenix going to Anaheim because he wasn't suppose to be in the states at that time to begin with! Team house isn't ready yet, so he wouldn't have a place to stay. So original contract does include travel expenses to events, just not Anaheim. At the time of negotiations it was never intended for phoenix to go to Anaheim. Everyone agreed and they announced that Phoenix have joined Reign. Some time later Phoenix made some extra requests of him attending Anaheim and that he would need Reign to pay for the expenses. Reign said that is not possible. And now they split.
no offense to phx but personally feel there is better people out there cough cough Sheth personally think its more phx's fault then RGN's but thats my opinion GL to both phx and RGN
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
All Reign players have their travel to events covered.
Rent in a house also being fully paid for, plus an allowance is in essence a salary. This is the slightly different approach. The normal player salaries teams give is inadequate to fully support themselves anyway. With this approach it is actually more feasible for players to live from StarCraft 2.
Edit for clarification: We were not able to make the necessary arrangements to get him to Anaheim, but were going to get him to other MLGs once in the US.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
The OP isn't lacking info, you just misread the OP. I read the OP once and this is what I got from it.
The negotiations did not include phoenix going to Anaheim because he wasn't suppose to be in the states at that time to begin with! Team house isn't ready yet, so he wouldn't have a place to stay. So original contract does include travel expenses to events, just not Anaheim. At the time of negotiations it was never intended for phoenix to go to Anaheim. Everyone agreed and they announced that Phoenix have joined Reign. Some time later Phoenix made some extra requests of him attending Anaheim and that he would need Reign to pay for the expenses. Reign said that is not possible. And now they split.
I think you and I are talking about different things. I read everything you read.
On July 24 2011 05:34 farvacola wrote: I was under the impression that the problem did not lie with sending Phoenix to MLG's in general, only that he demanded to be sent to MLG Anaheim after player passes were unavailable and flight costs became hard to manage.
I think you're right I'm just curious how travel/MLGs were never part of the original promise/contract when you are going to bring a Korean to the US.
it was, just not MLG Anaheim cuz they were flying him over after anaheim
Phoenix was promised transportation to the United States, plus full rent and living expenses in the Team Reign house. He was also to be given a small allowance once in the United States. All of these points were in his contract.
To clarify, Phoenix was not promised any salary beyond his small allowance. He was also never promised a trip to MLG Anaheim.
I took the first part of this quote as a description of the contract: transportation to the US, rent, expenses, allowance. The second part mentions that he was never promised a trip to Anaheim. To most readers this will look like there was no travel in his contract.
Is the OP just lacking that info then?
I'm thinking the problem laid with the whole Korea to US flight costs; hence why they would send him to MLG once in the US. Also the fact he wanted to go back every 3 months.
Those would be my venture on the major points of contention
@ the people who say what Mirhi has done is unprofessional;
You are the one's that say that EG was unprofessional that they did not announce the signing of PuMa and now you blame Reign for explaining the issue to the community. Sigh.
I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
On July 24 2011 06:21 Deshkar wrote: I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
I honestly don't expect anything from reign anyway, I still think poorly of spades for the map hacking thing, and that alone tarnished any good rep they got from picking up kiwi.
@ the people who say what Mirhi has done is unprofessional;
You are the one's that say that EG was unprofessional that they did not announce the signing of PuMa and now you blame Reign for explaining the issue to the community. Sigh.
No, we're complaining that EG was unethical in the signing of PuMa. This is a totally different thing. Your logic was okay until you based it on complete bullshit.
I don't know much about either parties in this but it seems the post made by reign was very aggravated even when it was mentioned that they weren't here to hurt his reputation. Using aggressive words like threatening, refused and demanding isn't how you go about making a press release about it when you state that it's not meant to bash him. "Negotiations/ed" "Persuade" "Requesting/ed" are passive words that don't reflect any hostility in the matter, and thus should be used when portraying any type of press release regarding this matter where you don't intend to bash the mentioned player.
It just seems that you guys are frustrated with the said player and are showing it with your choice of words while sugar coating it with the first few sentences. I personally feel you're trying to make the player the bad guy while trying to make yourselves look logically reasonable and not at fault, all which could of been done with passive wording while avoiding the "Phoenix is the bad guy here" theme.
Don't know enough about Phoenix's side to have a full grasp of what happened but it's seemingly unfortunate for both Reign and Phoenix. I know this announcement was kind of forced on you but it wouldn't have been that hard to be a little more concise, and in doing so put Phoenix in a better light. He wasn't even contracted at the time so it seems like nothing was lost for Reign besides a bit of time and the opportunity to search for a replacement. It makes more sense for him to join a team willing to fly him to/from tournies with his military duties regardless.
It's a shame it didn't work out but it seems to be for the better for both sides.
This is why when you announce a new team you only put players on the current roster who have signed a contract. Listing a player of that caliber as part of the team when you are still going through negotiations (no signed contract) is risky business (I can understand up and coming players who haven't made it big yet). I hope people take something away from this.
Please everybody don't turn this into drama. Both parties were negotiating and were not able to come to an agreement. And that is both of their right. Pheonix shouldn't have come to the US if he wasn't going to be happy. And Reign shouldn't sign him if he is making demands that they can't meet at this time.
And I certainly understand Reign making this post after the whole EG/Puma drama. Seems like they did a good job of representing the whole argument.
It is sad that you had to explain it to us to its full extent. But its important as well to get your side of the story out when others are saying something totally different. Best of luck to Reign!
Everyone criticizing Reign for releasing information needs to remember that Phoenix said in chat that Reign had not sent money and broken promises. A statement clarifying that it was simply a breakdown of negotiations is appropriate. Reign didn't break any promises and seems to have been operating in good faith. It's important to get that out there when Phoenix's words could be construed as claiming otherwise.
On July 24 2011 06:33 MonkSEA wrote: No, we're complaining that EG was unethical in the signing of PuMa. This is a totally different thing. Your logic was okay until you based it on complete bullshit.
What unethical signing? As far as I know the contract still isn't signed. Unless EG signed a contract with Puma before contacting TSL management in any way, shape, or form nothing wrong happened. Why negotiate with management before seeing if a player is even interested?
@ the people who say what Mirhi has done is unprofessional;
You are the one's that say that EG was unprofessional that they did not announce the signing of PuMa and now you blame Reign for explaining the issue to the community. Sigh.
No, we're complaining that EG was unethical in the signing of PuMa. This is a totally different thing. Your logic was okay until you based it on complete bullshit.
I don't know much about either parties in this but it seems the post made by reign was very aggravated even when it was mentioned that they weren't here to hurt his reputation. Using aggressive words like threatening, refused and demanding isn't how you go about making a press release about it when you state that it's not meant to bash him. "Negotiations/ed" "Persuade" "Requesting/ed" are passive words that don't reflect any hostility in the matter, and thus should be used when portraying any type of press release regarding this matter where you don't intend to bash the mentioned player.
It just seems that you guys are frustrated with the said player and are showing it with your choice of words while sugar coating it with the first few sentences. I personally feel you're trying to make the player the bad guy while trying to make yourselves look logically reasonable and not at fault, all which could of been done with passive wording while avoiding the "Phoenix is the bad guy here" theme.
It's not bullshit, nor am I sugarcoating my choice of words. People were complaining that EG didn't announce the signing of PuMa themselves.
How could EG announce this PuMa thing? I am rich and willing to pay more to your kid while your kid likes my offer, so I'm his new daddy. Next time learn to sign a contract before u raise a kid HAHA ...
@ the people who say what Mirhi has done is unprofessional;
You are the one's that say that EG was unprofessional that they did not announce the signing of PuMa and now you blame Reign for explaining the issue to the community. Sigh.
they're probably the same people who go "OMG WE NEED MORE TRANSPARENCY IN ESPORTS!!!" and then when they get it, they go "OMG HOW UNPROFESSIONAL!!"
Too bad it didn't work out for you guys. Maybe Phoenix thought you guys were loaded like FXO? Haha maybe if he was done with his military service or whatever it would've worked out.
I don't see how some people feel that this was posted to start drama.. There would be none of this if desRow had not leaked the convo with phoenix -_-.
They aren't painting phoenix in a negative light - they're saying what happened and what he did, and why the deal didn't fall through. This isn't negative.
@ the people who say what Mirhi has done is unprofessional;
You are the one's that say that EG was unprofessional that they did not announce the signing of PuMa and now you blame Reign for explaining the issue to the community. Sigh.
No, we're complaining that EG was unethical in the signing of PuMa. This is a totally different thing. Your logic was okay until you based it on complete bullshit.
I don't know much about either parties in this but it seems the post made by reign was very aggravated even when it was mentioned that they weren't here to hurt his reputation. Using aggressive words like threatening, refused and demanding isn't how you go about making a press release about it when you state that it's not meant to bash him. "Negotiations/ed" "Persuade" "Requesting/ed" are passive words that don't reflect any hostility in the matter, and thus should be used when portraying any type of press release regarding this matter where you don't intend to bash the mentioned player.
It just seems that you guys are frustrated with the said player and are showing it with your choice of words while sugar coating it with the first few sentences. I personally feel you're trying to make the player the bad guy while trying to make yourselves look logically reasonable and not at fault, all which could of been done with passive wording while avoiding the "Phoenix is the bad guy here" theme.
It's not bullshit, nor am I sugarcoating my choice of words. People were complaining that EG didn't announce the signing of PuMa themselves.
I'm pretty sure most of the complaints were about their handling of the situation in regards to communicating with TSL, not about announcing the Puma acquisition themselves. To be honest, I don't remember a single post of that nature. Them being beaten to the punch by TSL was a side-effect of not being in communication with the team, if a player acquisition is going on behind the scenes, neither team will really reveal it to the public, in this case it happened because both teams weren't on the same page.
So yeah, the situations are pretty different, general negotiations aren't really something you want to talk about in public, because there are likely a fair few negotiations that fall through and you don't everyone to be jumping on a player's nuts for expecting terms adequate to their expectations. Really, that's all that happened here, negotiations fell through, the only difference is that Reign announced that Phoenix was a part of the team before he had signed the contract, which was a massive blunder on their part.
On July 24 2011 06:21 Deshkar wrote: I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
On July 24 2011 06:21 Deshkar wrote: I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
On July 24 2011 06:21 Deshkar wrote: I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
I can understand the difficulties of bringing a player from Korea to the US. Imo its only possible if both parties are flexible. Sounds like Phoenix wasn't. You've gotta be able to give up your life in Korea completely to make it work.
On July 24 2011 06:21 Deshkar wrote: I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
Team logo as a special forum icon? ;D
Just because you can see that someone is apart of an organization doesn't change what they say. Even if you could immediately recognize Mirhi as a Management type for Reign, doesn't mean what he says, or how the community reacts to it, will change.
On July 24 2011 06:21 Deshkar wrote: I feel that each major SCII team should have a clear spokesperson/representative (2 maybe), and they manage all the official posts about/for their teams on this forum, as well as being very active. Hopefully TL can find/create a way of highlighting these pple as being the official representatives.
Fxoboss, xeris and the col bosses are probably the ones I really recognize off the bat as being sufficiently empowered to represent their respective teams.
I often spend a lot of time trying to figure out how reliable a player/person's statement is about a particular team, or whether is really official in the first place.
It would go a long way to help prevent/reduce e-drama as well as keep things more professional.
Team logo as a special forum icon? ;D
Just because you can see that someone is apart of an organization doesn't change what they say. Even if you could immediately recognize Mirhi as a Management type for Reign, doesn't mean what he says, or how the community reacts to it, will change.
At least we'll know that he's an official member/rep of that organization, rather than just a community member translating/speculating/trolling information at us.
Team logo for all members, and perhaps an additional star/(marker) to show denote a manager and/or pr official.
But than again it might not be worth the trouble, just my two cents.
I'm glad to see Reign handling this so well after the information being leaked unexpectedly by the most unlikable person in the entire sc2 community (Desrow). The problem makes sense now, and I don't see either side being particularly in the wrong.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: ... *As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign. ...
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: ... *As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign. ...
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: ... *As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign. ...
Yeah, this doesn't seem dramatic really to me. Perhaps it could've been handled in a more professional manner by Reign, in the end though it just seems that Phoenix wanted quite a few things that his team could offer and an agreement could not be reached.
Best of luck to Reign and Phoenix both in the future.
If i see EGPhoenix i will lmao. That being said. Reign has a strong lineup, and they can do without.
Would love to hear Phoenixes side of the story and if maybe someone could fill me in on the details of the mandatory korean military service.
I know they have to spend a certain amount of time in the military to be considered a citizen, but it seems odd that he would have to come back every 3 months to get a clear order of when he needed to serve.
Doesn't seem like the OP had any dirt on Phoenix here. They're just posting some facts about how they couldn't come to an agreement. I don't see any less of Phoenix just because he had additional demands. There is nobody at fault here. It's just unfortunate that they made the announcement to bring him in before he signed the contract.
One thing we can all agree on is that Desrow comes out of this looking the worst, not RGN or Phoenix. Good luck to all parties, everyone will be just fine.
On July 24 2011 03:03 YeYo wrote: LOL @ pheonix threatining to leave team why because he thinks he a hot shot korean?
Im sure there are 50 other Koreans that would easily agree to those terms. Reign doesnt need Pheonix, Pheonix doesnt need Reign.
Oh get over your silly judgements.
Are you going to judge every player that wants to negotiate their contract? This is why negotiations shouldn't really be made public anyways, because there are always gits ready to make judgments about the negotiating party.
Reign shouldn't really have announced Phoenix if he wasn't contracted yet, while the rest of the team was. Negotiations continued to take place afterwards and ultimately Phoenix chose not to sign with the team, he was pretty much never with Reign in that regard, they just jumped the gun in announcing him. When everyone on your team is contracted except for one person, and you're negotiating with them about the terms of their contract, it's strange to announce that they're a part of your team, because you get into situations like this.
If there was consideration and acceptance of the terms by both parties then it's contractually binding. Let's say that Reign emailed him the terms of the contract, and he emailed them back saying that he accepted the terms. He hasn't signed any papers yet, but he has given consent to the terms via email. Reign then makes the announcement that he's joined the team, and Phoenix decides that he actually wants more.
Technically if the proposal email was a copy of the final contract, and Phoenix admits to being the one that send the reply saying that he accepted the terms, it's a valid contract. Obviously it's going to be easier for Reign to just forget the whole thing than persue any other action ... lol ... but I don't blame them for announcing him as a player on the roster if he accepted the offer after due consideration.
Seems like you were trying to do something shady so he gets to stay in USA. Student visas while he isn't in school? Real shady.. I can see why he was uncomfortable to commit to it. You don't want to fuck with US customs.
On July 24 2011 02:46 mango_destroyer wrote: So negotiations didn`t work out. Big deal. I think you put him in too much a negative light.
They were clarifying a leak. Plus, it sounded pretty objective to me.
Phoenix sounded like the immature person in this Reign-Phoenix dialogue, although it wouldn't hurt to hear his side of the story (if he wishes to make a statement) as well.
Regardless, best of luck to both Reign and Phoenix in the future.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: ... *As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign. ...
Now that's just Evil.
You might even say that's Genius.
Do either of you have any evidence that it's EG?
I haven't read anything about them trying to snipe or steal players under contract, and they've been around for quite a while, so I wouldn't consider them "budding". You really shouldn't make accusations like that unless you can back up what you say.
Nazgul has the most relevant post in this whole thread. The actual wording of the contract is also is question here. I know esports team managers don't necessarily consult lawyers or anything like that but how do they not consider MLG in a korean-foreigner contract?
So much room for interpretation was left, especially since the contract was never signed. Team Reign should definitely know exactly what's getting itself into before announcing players as part of their team.
On July 24 2011 02:43 Mirhi wrote: ... *As an aside, there is a budding organization that has been tampering with a few teams trying to snipe players under contract from both Reign and FXO. They went after Phoenix and told him not to sign his contract so that he could leave Team Reign. ...
Now that's just Evil.
You might even say that's Genius.
Do either of you have any evidence that it's EG?
I haven't read anything about them trying to snipe or steal players under contract, and they've been around for quite a while, so I wouldn't consider them "budding". You really shouldn't make accusations like that unless you can back up what you say.
I feel like it's just the hate train coming in after EG picked up PuMa. I agree, in the fact that i wouldn't consider EG "budding" in any way, shape, or form.
It's unfortunate that it seems like it's not working out w/ Phoenix, but i mean, sometimes things just don't work out. I greatly appreciate the transparency of the entire situation that you've provided with us. I feel like ESPORTS in general can only be strengthened by things like this, even if this didn't have the intended outcome, where Phoenix ended up with you guys. (How's that for a runon sentence).
It's unfortunate that he was demanding to make it to Anaheim, but sometimes people just have ideas of themselves that aren't reasonable, and want things that aren't feasible.
Sounds like negotiations fell through and phoenix was never actually on the team. That being said, I don't understand how he could have left, and why it became such a big deal that he did.
I took the liberty to read every comment from this thread and I want to give a little bit of my thoughts.
First, Phoenix is of age where he is required to fulfill his military duties. Even back in sc1, we knew pros had to stop for a year or 2 because of these said duties. However, in the states, there isn't this requirement, making it an odd situation since it was never in the contract.
The issue was Reign's contract never included anything that would accommodate Phoenix's military requirements and thus cause a disagreement. I find it harsh that the OP used words like "demanded" and "threatened" because the fact of the matter is, he has to report to Korea for service regardless of what you do. Do you want him to break the law and be considered a "deserter"? The OP sounds like he's saying it's Phoenix's fault. Both parties are at fault. One for Phoenix being such high maintenance with many requirements, and two for Reign not dealing with this in a more professional manner.
I've watched Phoenix stream almost every night, and I think he's genuinely a nice guy. (Slayers Dragon is even more fun to watch since he interacts with his viewers all the time and even adds them on facebook.) Hopefully he joins a team that can meet his needs.
On July 24 2011 14:39 W2 wrote: Seems like you were trying to do something shady so he gets to stay in USA. Student visas while he isn't in school? Real shady.. I can see why he was uncomfortable to commit to it. You don't want to fuck with US customs.
You cant even apply for a student visa without proof of an accredited schools approval. One option was for Phoenix to take ESL english courses. How was this something shady?
Well, hes entitled to not sign the contract if he doesn't feel comfortable with the terms, I don't see it as that big of a deal. Its good that he backed out because hes not happy with the terms, than regretting and being unhappy.
Its actually very common for transfer deals to break down right at a very late stage of negotiation.
Though it is probably best to stick with a korean team and win some foreign online tournaments to get your name out there seem the wise thing to do at the moment. Its a bold move to teams to fly a player to US and back every 3 months when theres no guarentee of success with the likes of NaDa, Alicia and MMA to compete against.
EPT
Makes sense that he'd want some changes, given that he was expecting military service soon, but it also makes sense that it wasn't financially feasible for Reign to accommodate those needs.
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