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On July 22 2011 10:56 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 Twoinches wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:45 nufcrulz wrote:
Also, why isnt EG's position on this in the OP as well. Why am i getting one sided views from the Korean side? Because this is a TRANSLATED ARTICLEBy the Korean website which dislikes this. And because EG didn't released an official statement, as far as i know. (except the whole WOC thing) Why would they? the deal was not complete. why announce the deal when it isnt a deal yet? Well maybe because they are running on marketing money, and if they don't release a statement half of the world is going to hate them and what they are marketing?
They were probably caught completely off guard by Coach Lee flying off the handle and attacking them as they hadn't been expecting it to go down like this at all given that they hadn;t finalized anything and Puma said he wanted to break the news to his team rather then having EG do it.
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On July 22 2011 10:47 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:43 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. How would TL feel if we just started posting baseless accusations in the sidebar as facts? This isn't that big, but there was certainly misinformation involved, that Puma was already signed (he isn't). TL in general prides itself on the quality of it's posts, something it has control over due to the moderation of the forum and rumors without fact checking or seeking statements should be the basis of a quality post about breaking news. The quality control mechanisms of TL have given us thousands of successful translations. If there was confusion about the Puma situation, it's a small price for such quick translation for the community.
I agree completely, which is why locking it is the better option, not withholding it until both sides have statements. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the translator to get the quotes from both sides because that just puts more barriers up and prevents timely translation, but for it to be open for discussion it should have both sides, otherwise we do end up with 200 pages of baseless hate like this or the Teevox thread, though I think R1CH did the correct thing and locked that thread until the appropriate time.
And keep in mind, it's not an issue unless accusations are being made against someone else, most translations don't fall into that category.
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On July 22 2011 10:54 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? You could like... You know... Get another job? Oh wait, that would be logical. I am sure your extensive experience in progaming will get you a beautiful job instead of you know, the large money you could be making towards the future while progaming. Show nested quote +As I said earlier and will say again, THIS IS THEIR DREAM. They have chosen to become Pro-gamers because it is what they want to do. If they are worried about the future then go work in a fucking office, or become a lawyer or a doctor, or anything. Are you dense? there are teams willing to pay them to do their dreams and teams that aren't its a pretty easy choice which team they should be with.
But this argument doesn't concern that, this started off with (as far as I can recall, with it being 3am and all  ) saying what has TSL done for PuMa which I then said "Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world." someone then went on about food and you are talking about something else.
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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
What was "wrong" with this post though? What has been proven incorrect information?
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On July 22 2011 10:54 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS. This post is not a journal, it's a translation. Teamliquid is not a news site, it's a community site. There is drama because EG made the move, not because TL decided to play it up to get attention. Teamliquid is a news site. A) Says so right in the banner and B) Trying to claim that TL isn't the news hub of Western SC2 is laughable.
Teamliquid developed into having a news function =/= teamliquid is a news site.
the banner says new, community and team.
This is a post on a community forum, not an official news release from teamliquid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you there.
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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
TL didnt 'publish' the article. its not even on the 'level' of being a post made by a forum member.
its a translation of something from another site and any journalistic integrity questions should be aimed at them
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On July 22 2011 10:58 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. What was "wrong" with this post though? What has been proven incorrect information?
One specific that's pointed out in the show today, that Puma has received an undetermined sum of salary from EG, for one.
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On July 22 2011 10:53 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? You could like... You know... Get another job? Oh wait, that would be logical.
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
I disagree.
It was not published by TL at all. It was a THREAD, anyone can publish a thread, and if this thread is about a translation from korean to english, then its fine that it stays like that.
Furthermore, EG could have easily released an official statement and it would have been added without problem, they just didnt.
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On July 22 2011 10:56 SourD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. korean teams do not think they shouldnt have to pay their players....where did you get this??? coach lee said in his interview with playxp.com that their sponsors were leaving because of lack of exposure due to small viewership of SC2 in korea ATM. they didnt pay him salary because of financial hardship. not because they feel like they shouldnt.
I
Which is why the korean mentality will not work, and this is the best possible situation for their markets to grow, rebuild their exposure, and bring sc2 to the next tier
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On July 22 2011 10:47 h3nG wrote:
Sh!t like this cannot continue...
The way I see it:
1. TSL provided PUMA the opportunity to become awesome (housing, food, training, etc...)
2. PUMA becomes awesome thanks to TSL
>>>>PUMA being awesome can bring in TSL money via +SPONSORS for TSL
4. EG pulled of a NINJA move on STEALS the opportunity from TSL.
+ for PUMA
++ for EG
- - for TSL
Who loss and gained?? No shit TSL is mad. They got robbed of step 3.
The Pittsburgh Pirates have been basically the worst team in baseball for 18 years. They continually get great draft picks, and pick up great prospects. The Pirates provide these prospects with great facilities and coaches to get better. They train them up, bring them up to the big leagues, and these prospects begin to flourish. Then other teams pick them up because the Pirates don't have enough money to pay them.
Theres no reason to be upset with anyone, the players, the original team, or the team that picks them up. In both situations if there is somebody who u want to blame it shouldn't be the team that is willing to provide the player with what he wants, or the player who is out to make a living. If you want to blame somebody blame TSL, for the unfortunate fact that they are unable to provide what Puma wanted, just like i blame the Pirates for not spending enough money to support their growing stars.
Besides if this information had not broken for a few more days and EG had made a press release before Mr. Lee made his statements, everyone would be here cheering on the decision.
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so can we get an update to the OP since Weapon of Choice is over and we have new info from EG's side.
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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
I still don't see how anything was "proven" wrong. They've said Puma is not on the team yet, but they never said anything to refute that it's all but a done deal. Why would they announce Puma is unsigned to the world? Korean and foreign teams might all be interested in picking him up. Unless of course, it's a done deal that just hasn't been signed yet, as maybe the paperwork is in the mail? It could be as simple as a high school student saying "I'm a senior woo-hoooo!" after the last day of his junior year.
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For those of you spouting that this is clearly just business about signing a free agent and that money wins. I agree with you to a point, however you're missing the global picture of this from a "business" perspective.
It's about more than a player signing a contract to play with a foreign team. It's about a clash of cultures and the growth of an industry/organization. Let's take any huge industry, such as the beverage or automobile industry. There are plenty of instances where a company goes into a foreign country and completely disregards their culture. The outcome? Their product flops because of a lack of cultural empathy to understand nuances in the underlying market. Now adays with an understanding that you need to incorporate a country's culture into the equation we see differentiations in the market. Europe and the US for example have a different variety of beverages available from Coca-Cola because of cultural tendencies. Same thing applies for automobiles.
Simple point is this, while the contract issue may have been business as usual in the accepted world. The reprecussions that it may have upon the growth of eSports and the perception of the differing communities may lead to significant changes. I could honestly see this leading to a Kespa 2.0 to defend the rights of the native country.
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This is just an example of how weak the Korean pro-teams are and how weak the Korean SC2 market truly is in comparison to the global / western market. Most Korean pro-teams don't have written contracts because at this time they cannot guarantee or provide salaries, housing, food, etc. Yes, most teams will try their best to provide the bare necessities, housing and food, and that what PuMa was getting. Its kind of disappointing that PuMa took the easy way out (for himself) rather than banding together with his teammates and trying to make something with TSL.
In BW, prior to most teams getting big corporate sponsors, etc. most teams struggled and had their players poached by bigger teams. In one such team, GO (now CJ Entus), their star player at the time XellOs, the one who stuck it out with his team, gave up his own prize winnings to help finance the team. That is being true to your verbal (or non-verbal) contract you have made to your team and teammates to band together and make something.
Maybe in some ways SC2 in Korea needs KeSPA so that they can get the corporate backing to help support their teams. Some people may see Korean teams being unable to provide salary as exploiting their players, but they don't provide salaries, because they simply don't have the means. Also, when you think about it being provided space in a team house (practice, housing, food) can be much better than receiving salary unless the salary is significant enough to cover housing and living expenses.
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On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? You could like... You know... Get another job? Oh wait, that would be logical. That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
But you see, e-sports isn't sports..... If you wanna be a progamer, forget about having any kind of living after retiring.
Problem?
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On July 22 2011 10:59 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:54 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS. This post is not a journal, it's a translation. Teamliquid is not a news site, it's a community site. There is drama because EG made the move, not because TL decided to play it up to get attention. Teamliquid is a news site. A) Says so right in the banner and B) Trying to claim that TL isn't the news hub of Western SC2 is laughable. Teamliquid developed into having a news function =/= teamliquid is a news site. the banner says new, community and team. This is a post on a community forum, not an official news release from teamliquid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you there.
It was featured on the frontpage Community News and Headlines sections, they featured it as news.
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On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks.
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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
Source please for saying TL is the news source for all of English speaking Starcraft community ?
TL is a community site. How many threads of TL is for news ? And even if i have false news, I cant post on TL. Where does that even come from ?
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On July 22 2011 10:58 shavi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. What was "wrong" with this post though? What has been proven incorrect information?
EG never told anybody that they signed Puma (because they didn't and to this point still havn't, and PlayXP wrote the article that they did. The news broke to early and PlayXp is accountable, obviously not milkis' translation. EG had no statement prepared because they simply hadn't even finished the process.
It was a bad string of events that lead to another witchhunt. Had PlayXp written the article in RESPONSE to EG's press release that they signed Puma and would be flying him places and giving him salary etc, than it would be reasonable. But the fact is the broke the news early and had their facts wrong but presented them as truth with a strong statement from Mr. Lee.
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EPT
